What Belongs in This Forum?

This is just the beinning of what will happen in the forums. Several of the people in this thread applauding Daniel's actions, and those who are pointing out thread that are offtopic, wish to be the enforcers in the forums. You will see all kinds of attacks against people now who...

1. Try to bring up a topic that's not inline with group think.
2. Try to bring up a topic that might be critical of SL or Linden Labs.
3. Try to inject some fun or crazyness into the world.
4. Try to vent some frustration, anger, etc. about somebody's actions, some group's actions, or *gasp*, Linden Lab doing something wrong.

I agree with Hank completely. I don't know what there is to applaud about.

I know we are developing an alternate universe here, but I honestly have no idea what planet some of LL's thinking comes from. You cannot squelch human nature just by hiding and controlling the parts you don't like and giving a list of simplistic rules which amounts to "Be nice, and only talk about what we say you can talk about".

Why do people rant, even insult each other? It is human nature when you are angry to argue. Life is full of all kinds of drama. Friends fight, people have enemies, we argue, we insult, we apologize, we work things out. This is not just going to magically go away because LL wants to put on a nutrasweet face for the public.

Yes some of the personal attacks have gotten downright nasty at times, but we are adults, not little kids. If you do not want to deal with this aspect of the society that you are hosting, then don't have forums. By repeatedly deleting threads, you aren't moderating anything - you are controlling it at your own whim. Hell, you aren't even anywhere near consistent in it anyway, which shows a pattern of either laziness or favoritism, depending on your angle. Edit individual posts that violate TOS, but don't remove entire threads - no matter how much you continue to sweep all this under the rug, it will keep coming back until you lose the mindset that we are all children who always play nice.

*edited because of neg rate threat

Well, I think they can. In fact, I think they will.

Some may be surprised to learn that self-sustaining online communities aren't simply deposited into cyberspace and turned on. Instead, they are - or more accurately their culture is - built up over time, and more than a fair share of pain.

I believe that the pain-to-depth ratio is a real one. The harder this is to get through now, the more substantial our culture will be later.

Someday, there will be a very strong sense of "we are this kind of people" and "the way we do things around here."

And our common standards will be the product of all our current repetitious social trial-and-error - not the result of mandates, rules and majority pressure.

At the recommendation of a friend, I checked out Disney's ToonTown Online for my daughter. She was enchanted by the guided tours of SL I had shown her but is a tad young to even pretend to be an adult.

Even though I hate the corporate domination of culture by Disney, I have to say I was pretty impressed with their construction of an MMPOG. Although it provides little of the flexability of SL, the tech seems stable and the overall design is well... like Disney.

What is relevant to this thread is that they have a community of children (ESRB rating Everybody) and so have taken some precautions in inter-player communication. There is a menu of canned phrases that are the only thing that can be said and all of them are germane to the game. The most vitriol that one can generate is "You stink!". They do have a mechanism whereby friends who exchange a 6 character key though out-of-band communication can freely chat, but you have to have pre-exiting RL contact with that player in order to do the key exchange.

I don't think that this is the route that LL should take, but it certainly curtails anything but newspeak from being uttered. Disney also does not have any web-forums for the game.

Alright, I will bite on your "can't we just all get along and build together in harmony" philosophy. By and large, that is actually the case. Most people in SL get along with each other, or at least tolerate each other. If we were not in SL building, there would be no content. Many of the people you see in the forums are some of the most prolific and involved people in SL. The 68,000m of land I own is not empty.

This creative process of building a community is precisely the reason that issues, personality conflicts, problems, and arguments come up - especially with creative, passionate people. My answer to you as to why people cannot stop is it is human nature, and also as Kathy has said, it is part of the natural process of developing a more evolved society. You don't get from Point A to Point C without going through Point B, no matter how much you want to sidestep it or pretend that Point B does not exist or that you can just rise above it all.

Growth can often times be painful. Many important issues to our continued success as a community have been raised and resolved through the course of argument, dissent and discussion. I know you don't agree, and that is fine, I doubt you and I will ever see eye to eye about anything - hence again, the reason that people argue at times. Even though I disagree with you, I don't dislike you - you have spent far more time calling me names than anything I have said to you - so why do you not take your own advice?

Anyone wondering if this thread is being watched by Lindens, or if it's being ignored completely..?

Only a complete moron with a known history of griefing and who has been suspended multiple times would ask such an off-topic question. You stink!

i doubt they expect to read anything new here. they're adults too. our thoughts and feelings have already been made very clear. i also give them enough credit to understand that they can't hold back the tide of human interaction. we have to assume that they're not foolish enough to think they're going to create a utopian online forum.

so why didn't they lock this thread from the beginning? they're playing a game with us. they may be betting serious money on our reactions; or it may just be simple office amusement. we'll probably never know. we're just the silly mice anyway.

* edited to correct grammar

i applaud the efforts to dampen the negativity that had started to run rampant throughout the forums. i agree that certain restrictions should be adhered to and these would serve to keep the community in a more positive spin.

i also have to agree that we NEED an Off-Topic forum. so much flavor has been lost without these threads. it strengthens our community to be able to discuss (not argue) topics that have little or nothing to do with SL.
there have been several times recently when i wanted to post about some interesting tidbit or another. and it's sad when i have nowhere to share new technological information with everyone here.. or anything else of an 'off-topic' nature for that matter.

in short, excellent work on trying to get the forums 'in shape', but we need an Off-Topic forum for our shapeless conversations. still hold civil expectations for us there as well, but let us grow as we should.

while it is true that rumors, feuds, and personal attacks do happen here, that is not all that happens here.

and even if that was all that happened here, then it would reflect what are the current hot topics and events in second life.

the strife and conflict so many wish away is a sign of vitality and growth. as several others have pointed, second life is growing and evolving, this entails growing pains. trying to hide, stiffle, or otherwise silence the conflict is a disservice to that growth.

the points of contention that come up need to be addressed eventually otherwise they fester and become bigger problems. problems don't go away simply because you pretend they aren't there.

* * *

linden labs is trying to form a community through the medium second life provides, and one of the properties of community is that it doesn't always run smoothly. and one of the other properties of community is that there must always be an outlet for discontent. this outlet can be a slow steady outlet in something like the forums, or a vast violent explosion as the pressure builds and some event sparks many people or groups of people to intemperate action.

that passions run so high should be taken as good sign by linden labs that people are taking this experiment seriously. if people didn't care, they wouldn't get all worked up. and if there were no passion behind what people did here, then second life would be an empty shell.



while what linden labs wants is very important, it is not sufficient to control the behaviors of a diverse and passionate community. to think otherwise is the height of arrogance.

it is good to know what ll wants, but what about what the community wants? if the communities desires are not taken seriously, especially the contentious issues, then ll's stated goal of creating community is a farce.

and to state it clearly - obviously the community wants to talk about topics that ll wishes they wouldn't talk about or would talk about in a more civil tone.


daniel's list of no-nos is an indictment of the LL's failures in the forums:

- ll has failed to enforce these policies in anyway that is even remotely consistent. uneven, and possibly capriciousness, application of a rule is worse than no application of a rule. the community wants a clear simple standard that is enforced evenly, anything less is only going to fuel the flames.

transparency and clarity of forum policy is good, but when that policy is not enforced consistently, well, transparency and clarity is lost.

- ll has only fueled the strife by pointing out the "sins" of the community by highlighting only the negative things in the forums. to some extent, people want to know ll is paying attention, and well the only time ll seems to pay attention is when something unpleasant is happening. is it any wonder that people continue being unpleasant in an attempt to get ll's attention; civility gets no comment!

ll has not encouraged good behavior, only penalized bad behavior. there has been little to no comment about what is working well in the forums. if ll did this, while it would not end the flames, certainly more people would emulate the desireable behavior.

- there have been little to no comments about how ll understands the community and it's difficulties. but there have been some very heavy handed actions taken by ll to make stuff go away, but that have penalized many innocent people. and that hasn't made the situations in the forums any better.

- "Content that is well off topic or otherwise not germane to the topic in which it is posted." this point must be based on the bizarre fiction that what happens in second life doesn't affect the first life, and what happens in first life does not affect second life. there can be no other explanation.

the fact of the matter is that what is topical to secondlife is anything related to community, society, economics, politics, religion, commerce, science philosophy, outlooks, hobbies, jobs, government, etc... why? because these are the things that shape people's interactions in any community. when ll removed the OFF TOPIC forums, they wound up working at cross purposes and sending a mixed message - "Topics about community are welcome, but topics about community are also not welcome." In the end, huge sections of the sl forums in aggregate are about, encourage, and shape community. while the individual forums have set topics, the forums as a whole are about community, not slices of the community, but the whole community - disagreements, warts, and all. trying to deal with it any other way is a trying to live out a naive fantasy.

* * *

this post is not say that ll is doing a bad job overall. far from it. ll has done an amazing job. and if the most critical people in the forums truly though otherwise, then they would have left. if anything the criticism ll gets is so stridently because people can see how amazing sl is now, and can envision how bright sl's future will be, and people are eager to get there now. so when they think they see a problem they bring it up, not to tear sl down, but make sl better than it already is.

mind you, simply criticizing sl all the time isn't a nice way to reward people who work so hard to make sl the wonderful place that it is.

yes, sure they messed up here and there in the forums. but as i've said before, running forums is hard, and there is no perfect, or even good, solution to deal with conflict in forums that are populated as diversely as these forums are.

they've done a good job, and obviously i think they could do better, but the fact remains THEY HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB.

Reading these debates and following the Lindens is like "Kremlin-watching" from the Cold War -- we speculate about what is really going on, without much information. It's likely that the motives may surprise us. Sometimes, there may not be much going on at all. So, a few guesses about the politburo's motives:



(1) SL/LL is a speculative enterprise. The product is out of beta and has to prove itself. It's in a critical growth period -- scarce resources are being stretched maximally to cover the new clientele, because there will be little further capitalization until the product is established. Which means hardware and software development gets priority. Human services don't.

(2) Investors looking at SL are deciding whether they're going to get a return. "Drama" on the forums does not look good for LL when they are trying to prove the product and the stability of the market and clientele.

(3) On the other hand, "drama" may be a part of the product attraction to some of the clientele. Who knows? Certainly, a major part of SL is social modeling and opportunities. LL must balance the factors.

(4) SL is an experiment, and LL has emphasized that from the beginning, in process documents such as the ToS and CS, in the white papers, and during inworld gatherings. LL is not interested in exercising too much visible control over the clientele. Again, the problem is balance -- how does LL maintain the stability and predictability necessary for RL and SL private enterprise while allowing for a comparatively free range of experimentation? And do this with relatively few resources?

(5) Much of what we see -- inworld and inforums -- is LL stopgapping, spur-of-the-moment inventing, and sometimes fumbling. Exactly what to expect in such a venture.

(6) We -- the clientele -- supply a lot of the drama and conspiracy by attributing to LL more advantages, resources, experience, and genius -- evil or otherwise -- than they really have. Or we often attribute more stupidity to them than they really have. The key to drama is to see things in the extreme.

I make no claims about the accuracy of any of this. "Speculation" is the word.


Edited to add the "winky face" after the word "politburo", so that no one may mistake it as anything more than a playful tease.

Nothing good, evidentally.





Hmmm, the PoLLitburo. I like that.

I prefer to think of it as "speculating about the actions of the Gods". Seems to me the Lindens have more in common with the Greek Gods than with the Kremlin.

...we speculate about what is really going on, without much information...
Donovan
------------------


Interesting read!

Number 4 is the one that i wonder about the most - that one day we find SL is gone, 'cause LL got bought out - lock, stock and client accounts - and the new owners have a completely different business plan. THe new owners want only the technology, but not the incarnation called SL - so plug is pulled, and the technology is incarnated as some corporate 3D real money maker.

Shake it baby, shake it!

Won't happen we say?

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I have one thing to say "I warned you!"

in a few threads I have mentioned it time and again becareful what you ask for.

I think all arguments have been made about why the Lindens are making a terrible mistake.

I suggest you delete all the forums again and rename them all "If you don't have anything nice to say..." Because you are treating us like kindergardeners. Some might argue we are behaving that way, but we are living in a world where the justice system consists of telling the complaintant "we will get right on that" and never speaking to them again and telling the defendant "you have done something wrong and are now being punished. No we won't tell you what you did, but it was bad". Face it, the Linden system for handling conflict blows and we are gonna continue bickering like children until you fix it because right now the forums are the only outlet we have.

Very well put Kasandra. The coffee has just kicked in and I feel like I'm channelling John Stuart Mill:

Paternalism begets dependency.

Capricious governance is indistinguishable from tyrrany.

Sure. Agreed. And this is an argument that Lordfly D. has made in his windmill jousting for self-government. What's your alternative?

Not an unfriendly question, btw; I'm genuinely curious. Can anyone give us a point-by-point alternative to consider? And can we legitimately consider it without the debate devolving into a frontier fist-fight?

Name all game related SL forum prefixed with SL - and hire a staff Linden to administer the FORUMS and make this a remote position and hire someone who is mature - meaning an effective communicator, and yes, if needed, tough - but at all times professional.

All Game Specific Fours will begin with the SL prefix - only these will be the GAME SPECIFIC topics. Posting rules will be stated and ENFORCED, yes ENFORCED!

SL - Feedback to Lindens
SL - Land for the Landless
SL - Scripting
SL - Building
SL - Events
SL - Drama Theatre
SL - Animation
SL - Groups
SL - etc, etc, etc.


Then set up a few Off-TOPIC not game related forums, say no more than five of these:

First Life Topics
Rant and Raves
Personals
Etc. Etc.

State the rules for these and again, ENFORCE the rules on a daily basis. Enforce, enforce, enforce, but make this at least a 25 hour a week job, SEVEN Days a week!


That what I would do if i had the authority and it were my company.

How about how all other MMORPG games do it. If its something stupid like "I am harrassing my neighbor because I don't like how he is terraforming his land." Sit them both down and talk to them. Explain that while terraforming your land is not a TOS violation harrassment is and it has to stop. I think that is a way better "warning" than a form letter.

If its something more serious then explain to the person that is being punished WHY they are being punished and talk to the complainer and assure them something was done, instead of a form letter. This will probably take more people, but I am guessing anything other than form letters will take more people. They have like 22-28 employees right? That just isn't enough for a community this size. EQ gets its GMs from out of the player pool and its their job to handle crap like this while the programmers get to actually work on the game.

And silly reports will decrease too. If people know they have to face the person they are accussing, they won't report every, "he used a naughty word in a M sim but I was next door in a PG sim and heard it!"

This is what is done when my students have a problem. I pull them to the side and work it out. Its what happens if I have a problem with another teacher. The principle pulls us aside and works it out (and probably gives us a good lecture too). Its the way life works. Its not perfect, but its better than what they are using now.

Perhaps we have stepped up to a point where a governing/rules system for neighborhoods needs to be addressed so that "laws" can be put into effect making "terraforming is bad" actualized in writing (if it's voted as such). Right now, it can be used maliciously, but if 'outlawed' or used in a manner deemed unlawful, these things would much better be addressed.

Would turn a lot of rants into much more progressive talk, too? Or more clean cut?

Just an idea, not even sure how I feel about it.

Well if they made a rule against terraforming they might as well take it out of the game. That was just one example, my point was that these problems are better solved with dialogue than back handed smacks upside the head with the offender holding their head and asking, "what did I do?"

Linden Labs isn't the first forums provider to wrestle with these issues, nor are they going to be the last. Every online provider has had these same problem.

There's two goals always at play when it comes to determining an approach for administrating a forum:
- Freedom of speech
- Calm and Reasoned Discussions


Unfortunately, the increase of one of these goals is usually at the cost of a decrease in the other. For example:
- Freedom of Speech - As seen before on these forums, if the Lindens allow free speech to reign, then it often includes rants, arguments, name-calling, etc.
- Calm and Reasoned Discussions - This means instituting 'acceptability' limits on the discussions. Certain forms of speech are outlawed.

No matter which way the Lindens decide to go on this matter, there are always going to be people who will moan and gripe about it. If they take a free-speech emphasis, then there will people complaining that the Lindens aren't stepping in enough, and aren't stopping fights erupting on the forums. If they take a more controlled approach, then others will accuse them of censorship, 'smiling corporate image', etc. There is no way for the Lindens to come up smelling like roses on this one.

We should be all abandoning the concept of having the 'perfect' forums. It's not going to happen, human nature is too wide and diverse to happen. Instead perhaps what we should be considering what approach would make for a good compromise....allow an acceptable level of free speech while at the same time providing an environment that is conducive to calm, reasoned debates.

To that end, these are my feelings on what might be an approach:
- The list of restrictions posted at the top of this thread aren't all that bad. Such things as ranting, name-calling and other malicious-minded activities only encourage flaming, not debate. There's more polite ways to express one's opinion.
- Allow moderation of the forum posts, only to enforce the above rules. Posts that violate the rules aren't deleted, but are locked - along with a reason from the moderator saying why.
- Restrict editing of posts after replies have been made to the posting.
- Make the moderation/complaint handling process open and transparent. For example, provide a way for users to see any abuse reports lodged in the forums, including any details about what was done/not done about it.
- Conduct regular surveys about forum moderators. Let the posting community give feedback about if they feel if a specific moderator is operating fairly or not.

In a perfect world there would be no need for such things are moderation and rules of conduct - we would all act with respect and be able to have discussions without getting into arguments. Unfortunately, we're not in a perfect world, so there will always be hotheads, jerks, fits of spite, words said in anger, etc. What we need is to determine as a community what we will consider the best way to provide a forum that (nearly) all users can feel comfortable in contributing to with their words.


- Newfie Pendragon

Freedom is always the preferred route, in my opinion.