Nasty Mentor Incident

In 2+ years the title of mentor has gotten me no consideration insofar as money for events, land fees, or anything else. None, zero, zip. What it has done is keep me thinking about bigger and better things to put in the world, take on the role of roaming historian, and compels me to visit the welcome areas and try to be helpful.

Sure there may be some LH and Mentors that don't get it. They won't last, I've seen 'em come and go. But these sweeping generalizations really are bad news. Many just clamp onto the bad examples and completely eschew the good that the majority of mentors and LH try to do when they wear the tags.

Why don't some of you actually approach some of the players that have been around, say, a year or more than you, you know, we "bullies" and whatever other insults and slander people are throwing our way these days, and see what we're about? You might actually learn something from a player that has been active for two years. I mean it's just a thought, crazy though it sounds.

Also, if you find a mentor or LH that is consistently good, tell him about a negative experience and see if he'll talk to the other guy. Remember mentors and LH don't get paid, don't work for LL, but many of us do take it seriously and we CAN talk to one another.

Your post was about a Live Helper incident not a mentor incident so why would we have spoken of the mentor requirements? Really, your ranting tires me.

As of a few months ago, Mentors started being allowed to do events at any location.

and people wonder why 'event support' was cut by the lindens hahaha bleh

The mentor involved with this is a new secondlife member who is just a couple of months old so I dont know how she qualified to be a mentor. She obviously doesnt have the temperament to be one.

NOw the "security force" for her club is leaving me offline instant messages threatening me and trying to intimidate me. He is also a new member who started a few weeks ago.

This is the standard for mentors? Club owners who are new members but become mentors to game the linden event money and who curse at people during a mentor event? I dont mean just using common profanity in a sentence, she used the "f" word at me.

Isnt the purpose of mentors to answer questions? So she didnt like the fact that I asked was this a real event, did that give her the right to curse me and tell me to get out of the event? Askign her was this a real event was a valid question because the Gama sim was full due to an event she was holding at her club (same land the mentor event was being held) at the same time.

When a mentor holds a mentor event for which they will be paid shouldnt they hold it in a location that can accommodate the people who attend? I mean holding it right outside a club that is so crowded cause of the event she was holding there at the same time is wrong. No one could teleport in for the class since the sim was full due to her ongoing club event.

She was clearly holding this class at that time and place only to get the money since she cant get club event money anymore and it was fair for me to ask her, is this a real event?

So what she did was this:

1) She should not have cursed me
2) She should not have told me to get out.
3) She should not have posted my private instant messages to her in open chat where everyone could read them
4) She should not have called me evil in front of everyone when i asked her to stop posting my private instant messages to her in open chat and told her it was a rule violation
5) She didnt know the rules about posting private messages openly , or she didnt care
6) She was more interested in getting people on her club land than holding the mentor class in a place where people would be able to teleport into
7) She should not be tellign her club security force to send intimidationg threatening messages to me
She should not have cancelled her event (telling people how to use animations and giving out freebies) because she didnt like the question I asked her

She is a mentor? WOW

zack, sorry you had to have that kinda experience in SL. You can, and should file an abuse report on that so that LL is aware that kind of behavior is going on and they will appraise the situation appropriately.

Then jus try an put it behind ya an come an enjoy SL with the rest of us ^.^

Zack, keep talking, stick to your guns, and do not let the bastards get you down. What you have written is appalling, and really, it's not just one bad apple, but an indication of a system seriously, seriously gone awry, that calls out for review and reform. Keep talking, the public has the right to demand accountability for their "Mentors".

Lektor, so what if we were talking about Live Help in the other thread, and my source who told me Live Help was 30 days, in fact meant to say Mentor? For many people, these two institutions are indistinguishable, and they even overlap. To the rank-and-file player, they are oldbie or midbie players who wish to gain status for whatever purpose and who have misused their positions to gain advantage over other players.

Tcoz, ordinarily I would agree with your point on the face of it, because usually older players with knowledge and history gain respect in a gain and deserve it. I'm thinking of figures like Willing Labrat in Test City in TSO, who had widely-earned respect, and any alumni of TC reading this will know exactly what I mean. But that's not what we're talking about. It's not that we are incapable of respect for older and wiser players. We do have that respect. But we don't see why the whole institution gets a free ride and a free pass and remains immune from criticism, constantly shielding itself with the "few bad apples" theory. The collusion with Lindens, as indicated in Zack's story, is the most infuriating of all, and is precisely what I mean when I use the phrase "beta-test love-fest" to explain that symbiotic relationship developed between game devs and beta fanz that becomes almost unassailable and can prove a serious obstacle to broadening out a game and increasing its subs.



Well that's just a plain silly statement. We've just been through a considerable economic unpheaval where tons of event organizers and clubbers got kicked in the teeth, but had to stand by gnashing what cracked stubs remained of their dentals as feted mentors and instructors get to go on collecting pogey from the state. Lindens aren't even willing to review non-mentors who submit educational applications because they think they'll all be of the type promulgated by billy, i.e. let me educate you on how to apply an expert BJ.
The fact is, as it stands now, the mentor status DOES give you more earning potential by giving you a free ride for events. We've seen that this girl can have dances and pretend to do some scripting tutorial on top of the dance and collect for essentially her dance. If you've been in the game two years, I'm sorry, but you might well be one of those lucky fellows who has paid-up life-time tier, i.e. 4096 sq m that you don't have to pay tier on in perpetuity and that certainly sets you wave above everybody else coming. Your numerous plusses gained on your profile back in the glory days when ratings were only a buck puts you in a higher status bracket and still earns you a better delta even if you never get another rating at $25. In two years, you may well have acquired very cheap land that now is worth a fortune. Your status entitles you to all these perks and more, and you you want us to believe that just because YOU didn't get anything out of this, and were selflessly assisting the masses, that we are all supposed to prostrate ourselves. Uh-uh.



OK, that's great. I'm glad you've been a decent fellow and have done this. But you can see not all are so decent. And your unwillingness to question the pitfalls of your institution and your entitlements is frankly troublesome. I've also seen the tone you've used against me in forum debates, and, as a bonus, I happened to see how you behaved in the welcome area the other day. I was not impressed. You have a perception of yourself that you are selflessly engaged in the betterment of mankind, but guess what, somebody might have enough impression.



The experience of me, Zack, and many other players has been a negative one. It is enough to question how these individuals are screened, why they get to be feted with all this grant money, and why they are so impervious to outside review and reform. It's very troublesome to have a non-transparent system of this type. Nobody made a generalization claiming all mentors and helpers are like this. What we've done is highlight the truly bad behavior of a couple of high-profile ones and questioned an institution that could let this happen. That's a different principle, one of an open society and not a closed old-boy network.

I'd like to hear the other side of the story. Seems like a lot of assumption going on here.

ty very much for your input. I did file the abuse report and i sent one in about her security force guy threatening me now.

I am talkign about this here because I realized if LL let her become a mentor after being here two months then what standards are being used?

What does it mean to be a mentor here? I looked it up in the dictionary and mentor means a "A wise and trusted counselor or teacher." I dont know how wise she is but she sure mouthed off. I dont consider any teacher who curses a student, and loses it emotionally because she is asked a valid question to be a wise and trusted counselor.

I am also very annoyed that Jack LInden didnt get it that the reason the sim was full was because of the event she was holding at her club, same time , same location. Instead he began telling me that the mentor was not in control of who enters the sim (except for me who she was telling to get out.)

I think mentor events should be held in a location where all who want to attend can get in like the linden class area. I know the idea is that the mentor can kick out griefers on their own land and that was her excuse for holding the mentor event at her club, but there was no excuse for holding it at the same time as she was holding a club event. The sim was so lagged after she teleported me in because of all the people in her club that the class would have been impossible anyway.

Should people who have been here only 2 months and who did what she did, and now having her club security guard try to intimidate me be mentore? NO!!!! SHE SHOULD BE ASKED TO LEAVE THE MENTOR GROUP!

p.s. trying to improve the sentence structure..how am i doing? lol

The mentor thing needs to be looked at. If someone like Imagoel Best can be a mentor, then there's a bit of a problem.

Even the great Grimmy Moonflower (God Rest his Soul) was a mentor.

I happen to know Zack in real life and he is a nice guy who speaks up when he sees something is not as it should be. He is polite, and from what I have read in this thread seems to be demonstrating that comportment in this situation.

I am a mentor and when I am acting in that capacity I sincerely believe my conduct should set an example for all those who observe me and speak to me.

I get many questions from new members, some annoying, some frustrating, but I always make sure that I answer politely and with patience. I have found that many new players I help as a mentor continue to periodically message me with questions even when I am not wearing the mentor group name or devoting my time to helping out. Still, I make sure that I reply patiently and as best I can to help them.

I didn't join the mentor group until I had been in Sl for one year and I felt a genuine desire to help out new members in what i see as an apprenticeship type situation. At no time was linden payment for mentor events my consideration.

So yes, I guess this is just one more "bad apple" situation. Those who criticized Zack in this circumstance for speaking up should reflect upon their own standards for behavior and how they would expect a teacher to act.

Would it be acceptable for a teacher to say to her student in the classroom "wtf" when asked a question the teacher didn't enjoy hearing? Not at all.

Would it be acceptable for a teacher to say to her student "get out" when the student asked a question as benign as "Is this a real event?" Not at all.

Would it be acceptable for a teacher to carry on and publish private conversations held with her student to the open classroom? Not at all.

Would it be acceptable for a teacher to have her nightclub "security guard" contact a student to intimidate and threaten him? Not at all.

Etcetera.

Why, then, would anyone defend that teacher's reprehensible conduct and attack the student when he speaks out about that treatment?

Suggesting that Zack, or any secondlife member, should tolerate that treatment is an act as morally wrong as the behavior of the mentor who misbehaved. Suggesting that Zacks' sensitivites for not wanting to be cursed at by a mentor during an event are what's wrong, and not the mentor's cursing, is a bizarre conclusion. No one, no one, deserves to get the F word tossed at them by a mentor during a mentor event merely because he asked "Is this a real event?"

As a mentor I am sorry that Zack experienced this.

Katy, I agree with one exception.

If someone came up to me in the middle of a class and asked me if I was committing fraud, he'd be bounced out of the mim with an abuse report round his neck before he knew which way was up.

And why do they think this Prof ?? Couldn't be because of your constant rants perpetuating this ??? Really I hope to never meet you in world this is ridiculous, I thank you for slinging mud on something you know absolutely nothing about. Good day.

Yes I would also be upset too but all these events happened before the class started and in private IMs. The mentor made it public by copying and pasting the private pre class IMs to the people who showed up for the class as far as I understand events.

I wanted to clarify some changes that took place recently. The L$ support that we offer to those who teach classes is no longer tied to membership in the Mentor or Instructor group. Anyone can apply for support. Take a look at the guidelines posted here.

The Mentor program is now focused on encouraging veterans to help new residents in one on one situations. Those guidelines are posted here.

TY for pointing the new announcement out Haney. I had not seen that development and I think its a good change. I can remember when there were a lot of classes on building 101, texturing, and photoshop and I bet we see a strong return now.

I am thinking that your point is also that the incident that is the subject of this thread may not have concerned a mentor. The event was listed as a mentor event however. Are all educational events listed as "mentor" events even when not conducted by a mentor, as long as approval is obtained?

Thanks for the post!

Well she didn't really make it "public". From what I saw she posted what he had said, accusing her of having an illegal event. I didn't save the log, wish I had. But this was after some of us were standing around for about 10 to 15 minutes into the even time. I think she made it public because Zack wouldn't stop complaining and she was trying to explain to those of us waiting for class to start what was happening. Maybe she used poor judgement, but come on Zack, why aren't you mentioning the fact that you prevented class from starting?

Can anyone here at least agree that the rest of the people waiting to learn should not have been penalized? Zack continued to berate this mentor well into class time. Was that fair to the rest of the people?

I enjoy socializing in events of an educational nature. I find, even though I've been around since August, that I inevitably learn something new. I would hope that any type of confrontation of this nature would never result in a class being cancelled. Regardless of the justification, isn't there a better way to address what is perceived to be a possible violation rather than stopping a class?

Once again April, I have to question why you would defend such poor conduct by the teacher and focus only on Zack. I think he made it clear that he didn't leave because he was waiting for the arrival of Jack Linden whom the teacher had summoned.

Also if you read his original post there was no accusation about an illegal event. I asked Zack what he said and he told me he asked her in PRIVATE IMs whether the event was a real event or was it an abuse of event payment.

He also said all this was before the class started. I suggest you read all the posts in this thread to review the events and message Zack to the information you seem to overlook.

All supported events should be now posted using the "Class" category.

Hey April I was there because I wanted to learn to so you are not the only one. I didnt stop the class the teacher decided she wasnt teachign it. I was waiting for Jack LInden and I had to stay until he arrived because he was investigating the incident.

I never said the event was illegal and anyways, its a good thing you dont save the chat cause you sound like you were about to post it which is a violation of the rules. But i did save the chat to send in to linden labs just like Jack LInden was telling me to do in IMs.

So April you really dont have all the facts. I was penalized to dont you understand that? I didnt cause this, she did. She way overreacted and had no temperament for the mentor class.

I read the chat again and i tell you what she said was more and meaner that anything i ever said. I can show you my part of the chat anytime and there is no way anyone could ever think i was berating. You are being to harsh. If you want to see my part of the chat message me.

I dont hold it against you April because i realize you must feel a freindship for the teacher and are not objective but i want you to know i really wanted the class to and i had to saty because of Jack LInden coming there. I already said that a few times and even during the thing i said I was waiting for Jack because I was ASKED TO WAIT FOR HIM!!! Capishe?

Whoa buddy, you are adding words I didn't say. I was not going to post the chat log. I was just concerned about one individual holding up a class for whatever reason. You did continute to talk in the regular chat area after the beginning of the class.

As I wrote before, I did not know either of you prior to this event. So I do not feel a friendship for this person. I just know what it feels like to try to do an event while one person continues to talk and IM. I understand you were waiting for Jack, but if it were me, I would have allowed the class to continue and would have stopped talking but that was just me.

I am not judging either of you, so I am not being harsh, just saying classes should be allowed to be held. I don't know about everyone else, but I check the Events, highlight the ones I wish to attend and set aside time in both SL and RL to attend and it is disappointing to go and not have a class held.

Do you think it would have been nice if the class could have continued and perhaps the mentor sanctioned, if justified afterwards?

I am sorry you were affecting but are you sorry I was affected?

mentors freshmints lalala ....how surprising.

Er, I hardly slung mud. I pointed out that there was 2 jerks I dealt with in particular, one particularly egregious, and I applauded Zack for telling his story. Others have come up in-world and told me *their* story. When this is the experience people have, it's their experience. You just don't seem to get it, so fiercely are you clinging to your celebrated cliques made up of your old friends, apparently.

When individuals behave this way, as Zack rightly pointed out, you wonder what the hell is going on, that an institution would allow such a person in, and a Linden would countenance. That security forces could send scripts after a whistle-blower and add threats to insults makes it even more harrowing. This just can't stand. This group let this happen, and none of you so staunchly defending it get it -- that it's not a "few bad apples" problem, it's a system that is not reform, and incapable of being transparent and accepting feedback about itself. Your constant indignant response about all this is a sterling example of that exact same imperviousness at work. You think no one can criticize this institution publicly -- but that's hardly fair or right in an open society. You think that no one dare question the institution itself or its training or procedures when they find some bad apples -- but that's just plain ridiculous. They can, and they should, and they will.

If people like you stop stampeding into a circle to defend this institution from questioning from the community, people might believe in it more. As it stands now, your ferocious, tribal protectiveness toward is a high sign there's a problem.

I'm so relieved to read Haney's announcement. It means that the unfair monopoly of this group is now ended. Now the Lindens need to go through the ranks of both the mentors and the helpers and do some serious weeding or pruning. And it would be helpful if the mentors and helpers who care about their group and want its respect would step up to the place in that process instead of endlessly circling their wagons.

As I see it from my own experience and others, there is a certain clique that is abusing these groups for gain for themselves. It's clear to anybody who isn't blindered and blinkered by being a feted oldbie themselves. That's not ranting, that's telling the truth. I guess I would normally have confidence in something like "the Lindens" sorting this out because they can look at chat logs and watch trends in behaviour. But when I read how Jack Linden behaved here, I really worry. That tendency to be in a default favoring "the mentoring class" is very alarming.

Seems to me neither sides story really hangs together.

Zack did not need to ask if it was a "real event". All he had to do is sit down and watch. If he is right about the motivation, it would have been poorly run, with inadequate preparation, and then he could have submitted a report, giving the background for his suspicions. He needs to understand that his "innocent question" was no such thing, however politely phrased. It was an accusation of wrongdoing which was bound to cause offence, and should have waited until the events was over and could be evaluated. I note he fails to respond to the statement that the people in the club were "stayons" from an earlier event. Is this true or false? Its clearly relevant. Zack was "waiting for a Linden" - couldn't he wait quietly?

And as for the "Mentor". Why did she cancel, or even delay the class? Was she being physically pushed ? Why did she not mute Zack and get on with it? If he was being abusive, everyone else could have muted him too. The ready abandonment of the event might suggest that it was in fact not the main point, as Zack suspects.

Looks like 50/50 to me, purely on the evidence of postings here. What actually happened we can never know, but I dont see any really clear evidence that the Linden erred.

Zacks failure to respond to the point about the club event timing, and inability to see the insult in his question, and its bad timing, rather tells against him, I'm afraid. Though of course he might be totally in the right, based on subtle elements in the interaction which we cannot share. How can we know?

I think his post is valuable, as pointing out a possible way of gaming the new event payments system, whether in fact this was an instance or not.

Dunno why I posted this really, except that I always find conflict interesting, and the way observers find it possible to hold entirely different views about a single set of events. Something courts and the police well know.