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Don't buy TV's offering archive.org streams |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:19
ruh, roh! dharma!
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:21
ruh, roh! dharma!  umm that was not helpful at all and your link did not work. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:23
umm that was not helpful at all and your link did not work. Oh well. This is devolving into nonsense. |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:25
Oh well. This is devolving into nonsense. No your 2 posts here are nonsense. You have offered nothing relevant to the the discussion and you are being what you would choose to lambast, a troll. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:26
No your 2 posts here are nonsense. You have offered nothing relevant to the the discussion and you are being what you would choose to lambast, a troll. How is it trolling to find amusement in the total explosion of silliness this thread has become? I guess I'm only cool when I'm taking your side, huh? |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:33
How is it trolling to find amusement in the total explosion of silliness this thread has become? I guess I'm only cool when I'm taking your side, huh? I have no idea what is or is not "cool". I do know that you have only posted here to show your amusement. Thats great for you. Now can you post something relevant to this thread? I don't think I started it to discuss your amusement. Sorry. |
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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05-04-2005 14:35
I'm not arguing! I'm stating facts! My position has not changed. Mr. TV seller guy is taking streams offered for free by a not for profit and selling them for profit. Mr. TV seller guy is selling freely available tools for streaming. You are arguing with yourself Alan. Regardless Archive.org is going to change the streams url's eventually, maybe soon. Your tv's will be bunk. Mr. TV seller guy is going to re-enter all those streams. You can then buy it again, and again, and again! Enjoy buying over and over what is FREE!!! I sell radios. I include a list of free streaming audio sites. What's the difference? Comments like ""Mr. TV Seller" sounds to me like you have a bad case of envy. _____________________
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:41
I have no idea what is or is not "cool". I do know that you have only posted here to show your amusement. Thats great for you. Now can you post something relevant to this thread? I don't think I started it to discuss your amusement. Sorry. Wow, you're a friendly one, aren't you. I initially posted to this thread in support. Read the first page, fella. Since then, it's become a petty little blamefest. Not terribly productive, I'm afraid, and you've instigated much of the unpleasantness by being combative with the individual who is selling these televisions. Rather than discussing this civilly, it's now a crap-fling. Well, bravo. edit: And stop being so grumpy. It's unattractive. |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:41
I sell radios. I include a list of free streaming audio sites. What's the difference? Comments like ""Mr. TV Seller" sounds to me like you have a bad case of envy. Weedy- The difference is that you include a list of streaming audio sites. Our Mr. TV seller guy sells a built in set of video urls. These are then clicked and played without the user even visiting archive.org. Did you read this thread at all? As for calling him Mr. TV seller guy, thats because we are not supposed to name names here. It has nothing to do with envy. How could I possibly be envious of someone taking freely available streams and bundling them with freely available scripts and then selling them for as much as possible? I'm sorry, I have no one to envy in SL. |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:43
Wow, you're a friendly one, aren't you. I initially posted to this thread in support. Read the first page, fella. Since then, it's become a petty little blamefest. Not terribly productive, I'm afraid, and you've instigated much of the unpleasantness by being combative with the individual who is selling these televisions. Rather than discussing this civilly, it's now a crap-fling. Well, bravo. Again you posted a troll response. How did that post add to this topic? It really did not as far as I can tell. Also you are flinging some insults of your own. Maybe you should rethink why you are even posting here. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:43
Comments like ""Mr. TV Seller" sounds to me like you have a bad case of envy. Quite so, Weedy. Initially this seemed like a level-headed discussion. Then the original poster went off the deep end. Jeska really ought to lock it now before it gets any worse. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:44
Again you posted a troll response. How did that post add to this topic? It really did not as far as I can tell. Also you are flinging some insults of your own. Maybe you should rethink why you are even posting here. Calm down, please. Your most recent posts indicate significant agitation. |
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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05-04-2005 14:46
Weedy- The difference is that you include a list of streaming audio sites. Our Mr. TV seller guy sells a built in set of video urls. These are then clicked and played without the user even visiting archive.org. Did you read this thread at all? As for calling him Mr. TV seller guy, thats because we are not supposed to name names here. It has nothing to do with envy. How could I possibly be envious of someone taking freely available streams and bundling them with freely available scripts and then selling them for as much as possible? I'm sorry, I have no one to envy in SL. Freely available scripts? Thats got nothing to do with someone developing a script with features. My radio has 16 presets (hard coded into the script), which sets the landowner to freely available streams, likewise the user list will direct the landowner to 50 other sites. Whats the difference? None I say. _____________________
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:47
Quite so, Weedy. Initially this seemed like a level-headed discussion. Then the original poster went off the deep end. Jeska really ought to lock it now before it gets any worse. I would say alot has been accomplished here. The developer of said TV has agreed to contact archive.org and get this all straight with them. The developer of said TV has agreed to take it off the market till that time. That was my original concern and still is. If you don't see this as productive, then perhaps you should stop baiting and trolling. |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:48
Freely available scripts? Thats got nothing to do with someone developing a script with features. My radio has 16 presets (hard coded into the script), which sets the landowner to freely available streams, likewise the user list will direct the landowner to 50 other sites. Whats the difference? None I say. Do you host the music streams? Do you plug the source so people know where it came from? If not then you are actually doing much of the same that would cause concern to any honest content host. |
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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05-04-2005 14:49
Who the hell wants to watch TV when the good drama is here?
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 14:51
I would say alot has been accomplished here. The developer of said TV has agreed to contact archive.org and get this all straight with them. The developer of said TV has agreed to take it off the market till that time. That was my original concern and still is. If you don't see this as productive, then perhaps you should stop baiting and trolling. Sure. And in the middle of all this, you made clear a personal conflict (nay, vendetta?) with this "TV seller" which completely imperils any future productivity in this thread. You're being nasty with everyone who doesn't agree with you. For Dana Unsung, The Internet is Serious Business edit: Thanks for joining us, Schwanson. Pull up a chair. |
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 15:00
Sure. And in the middle of all this, you made clear a personal conflict (nay, vendetta?) with this "TV seller" which completely imperils any future productivity in this thread. You're being nasty with everyone who doesn't agree with you. For Dana Unsung, The Internet is Serious Business edit: Thanks for joining us, Schwanson. Pull up a chair. Enjoy your own show. My point was made and I'm done for now. The developer has thought about the issue, consumers are thinking, and I have found greater clarity on this issue for myself. Have a good night, morn, whatever. |
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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05-04-2005 15:01
Do you host the music streams? Do you plug the source so people know where it came from? If not then you are actually doing much of the same that would cause concern to any honest content host. Content host. What is that? I don't host streams, personally I don't plug anything, but my radios state the name and url of the stream which is playing. Anyone can set land to a free stream. What does selling a feature packed, scripted object have to do with any of this? _____________________
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Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
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05-04-2005 15:01
As a supporter of open source, freeware, shareware, etc I have been puzzled by the rash of advertisements on the SL forums concerning the sale of "TV's" that are coded to offer easy playback of Archive.org content. Most recently here- /invalid_link.html While I understand that Archive.org is the place to go to watch free movies, listen to music, and search long dead websites, it's not the place you go to get all of the content that you are selling! My god people! Archive.org is not for profit and they live on donations mostly. When some guy whose only goal is to make money comes along and sells off bandwidth that they don't own it can potentially ruin the whole thing. I am asking, begging, and pleading those of you who decided to sell tv's since 1.6 to please come up with some content that you host or have some sort of legitimate claim to. I am asking you to stop selling TV's with the entire catalog of archive.org built in since that is not what archive.org is for. Archive.org is not for YOUR profit!!!! I have spoken at length with archive.org and they feel it is NOT in the best interest of the community to have their free streams sold for any price. They are looking into regularly changing the stream url's on all of the streams they have in order to prevent this type of thing in the future. So for those of you who have been paying alot of lindens for something that is not supposed to be sold then I guess you will soon enough find your TV's with all those pre-programmed streams to be bunk and you'll be screwed. It would never have to be like this if some of you were not so greedy. I think you have to appreciate how video works in SL. When a SL user plays video, the video is streamed from the source of the video (regardless of where that is) directly to the user's computer. It does not go through SL at all. In effect, the "TV" is nothing more than a list of URL's, one or more prims, and a script that makes the list of URL's accessable. I don't think its fair to call this "reselling bandwith". Outside SL, I could sell you, say, a PDF file with hyperlinks in it to a list of videos. When you click the hyperlink, it would launch your media player and play the video. These "tvs" do exactly that. So they aren't "reselling" the video, they are merely selling you an index. I don't think that's an abuse of archive.org, and I don't think they would either if they understood *exactly* what is going on. The SL client is a "media player". The "TV" is a list of URL's. That's all it is. You can argue whether you think selling an index to archive.org content is improper, but don't characterize that as "reselling content". I don't think it is that. It would be nice if the maker and/or customers of these "tvs" made donations. Buster P.S. I don't make or sell a "TV", just calling it as I see it. |
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Yoshi Platini
Registered User
Join date: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 111
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05-04-2005 15:03
I've never met the manufacturer of the appliance in question, but given (a) the language I've discovered so far in Archive.org's FAQs, and (b) the arguable viewpoint that he has merely engaged in the same kind of value-added repackaging for which a number of Linux resellers charge, I believe the characterizations of him and his customers as thoughtless, craven greed-mongers are a bit premature.
This thread has brought some interesting concerns to light, but it's not the noblest exercise in activism I've ever seen. --yoshi |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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05-04-2005 15:05
I don't think the TV seller is doing anything wrong. He is packaging a service. I went to that site to see if I would be able to play things from there on my own TV's. Maybe - maybe not, it seems to be undergoing some sort of overhaul.
But in general, I'm not handy with these things, and TV's that come with all the scripting and finding kinks worked out - THAT is what I would be paying for. I tend to agree with those who see nothing wrong with using a site that wants us to use it, and I don't think we would overwhelm it with three thousand people all wanting to view "Reefer Madness" at once. coco |
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Ursula Madison
Chewbacca is my co-pilot
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 713
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05-04-2005 18:54
Mr. TV seller guy is selling those streams. He has coded every url into his tv's so that they come with the product. He charges for this product. If he wanted to be kind to archive.org he would just offer an html link to archive.org so people could choose what they want to watch. As is people ARE buying his tv and streams. There is no difference in his package. He is profiting off of the free service from archive.org. If he wanted to DL the streams and host them himself that would be more reasonable, but he's not gonna do that cause his profit margin, which at this point is 100%, would fall well into the red. Frankly the cost that he chooses to ignore would quickly be realized if he chose to host the streams himself. Who cares right? Not your money. Not my money. Not Mr. TV sellers money. Just some .org that we don't care about at all and just want to use for our own needs till its gone.  And the fact that the maker of the ingame TV has pulled them off the market until he has had a chance to talk to archive.org directly proves that he does in fact care. Not that you care..._____________________
"Huh... did everything just taste purple for a second?" -- Philip J. Fry
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Ardith Mifflin
Mecha Fiend
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,416
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05-04-2005 20:07
Seriously? You think it would be reasonable if he downloaded and hosted all that content himself? Do you expect Sony or Samsung to record all the TV shows that are broadcast and send them directly to your set? No, of course not. He is NOT selling the streams, he is selling a receiver for the streams. There is a big difference. You technically don't need to pay him for the service, you could go around him and access the streams yourself, one by one, or through the archive.org site... just like you could technically build your own radio out of wires and a crystal to pick up broadcast radio. People don't like working that hard, so they pay someone to make a device to do the work for them. That's all his TV does... that's all a RL TV or radio does. Just because the TV in your RL house has a preset to pick up channel 5, doesn't mean that Sony SOLD you channel 5... Do you get mad at the TV makers for picking up PBS? I guess the part where I said "The only thing that worries me is that if the TVs increase the bandwidth costs for Archive.org due to increased popularity of their streams. If it gets too costly, they will take steps to curb those costs... or they'll go under. Websites have been killed by their own popularity when their costs have skyrocketed." means that I don't care... I must be ebil. And the fact that the maker of the ingame TV has pulled them off the market until he has had a chance to talk to archive.org directly proves that he does in fact care. Not that you care...He is providing direct access to the streams provided by Archive.org, and allowing users to bypass the website to access that content. Furthermore, he is charging a fee to facilitate that access. Contacting the website isn't just a courtesy. It's a wise move to prevent potential legal action. Not to mention the fact that the website could change their policies, rendering these streams inaccessible from the in-game TVs. Then there'd be a couple hundred inert/crippled televisions floating around. Your public television analogy is flawed in that broadcast television is a resource which is not finite. Everyone within the range of the signal can view the broadcast without degrading the quality of service or costing the broadcaster more in resources. A more appropriate analogy would be someone shoplifting DVDs and then selling them to others. |
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Yoshi Platini
Registered User
Join date: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 111
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05-04-2005 20:15
He is providing direct access to the streams provided by Archive.org, and allowing users to bypass the website to access that content. Furthermore, he is charging a fee to facilitate that access. Ahh....*click*...got it. This was the part I'd missed so far...there's a behind-the-scenes usage of a single login. Now I see what the immediate fuss is about. Thanks for cooking it down, Ardith. -- Yoshi |