Don't buy TV's offering archive.org streams
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 11:41
As a supporter of open source, freeware, shareware, etc I have been puzzled by the rash of advertisements on the SL forums concerning the sale of "TV's" that are coded to offer easy playback of Archive.org content. Most recently here- /invalid_link.htmlWhile I understand that Archive.org is the place to go to watch free movies, listen to music, and search long dead websites, it's not the place you go to get all of the content that you are selling! My god people! Archive.org is not for profit and they live on donations mostly. When some guy whose only goal is to make money comes along and sells off bandwidth that they don't own it can potentially ruin the whole thing. I am asking, begging, and pleading those of you who decided to sell tv's since 1.6 to please come up with some content that you host or have some sort of legitimate claim to. I am asking you to stop selling TV's with the entire catalog of archive.org built in since that is not what archive.org is for. Archive.org is not for YOUR profit!!!! I have spoken at length with archive.org and they feel it is NOT in the best interest of the community to have their free streams sold for any price. They are looking into regularly changing the stream url's on all of the streams they have in order to prevent this type of thing in the future. So for those of you who have been paying alot of lindens for something that is not supposed to be sold then I guess you will soon enough find your TV's with all those pre-programmed streams to be bunk and you'll be screwed. It would never have to be like this if some of you were not so greedy.
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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05-04-2005 12:00
From: Dana Unsung As a supporter of open source, freeware, shareware, etc I have been puzzled by the rash of advertisements on the SL forums concerning the sale of "TV's" that are coded to offer easy playback of Archive.org content. Most recently here- /invalid_link.htmlWhile I understand that Archive.org is the place to go to watch free movies, listen to music, and search long dead websites, it's not the place you go to get all of the content that you are selling! My god people! Archive.org is not for profit and they live on donations mostly. When some guy whose only goal is to make money comes along and sells off bandwidth that they don't own it can potentially ruin the whole thing. I am asking, begging, and pleading those of you who decided to sell tv's since 1.6 to please come up with some content that you host or have some sort of legitimate claim to. I am asking you to stop selling TV's with the entire catalog of archive.org built in since that is not what archive.org is for. Archive.org is not for YOUR profit!!!! I have spoken at length with archive.org and they feel it is NOT in the best interest of the community to have their free streams sold for any price. They are looking into regularly changing the stream url's on all of the streams they have in order to prevent this type of thing in the future. So for those of you who have been paying alot of lindens for something that is not supposed to be sold then I guess you will soon enough find your TV's with all those pre-programmed streams to be bunk and you'll be screwed. It would never have to be like this if some of you were not so greedy. Thank you for posting this.
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Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
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05-04-2005 12:07
Very good post, Thanx Dana
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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05-04-2005 12:10
I love Archive.org. I think what you're saying here is more than fair and I'm glad the appropriate people have been notified on their end. Thanks for being pro-active.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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05-04-2005 12:13
Dana,
Excellent post - I have been wondering about the same issue myself. While I am not sure it is completely motivated by greed, the impact that these tvs could have on the site far outweighs the benefits of sellling this product, or even giving it away for free. Unfortunately, the choice of QT as a media format means there is a dearth of content actually available online - about 1/10th of the amount of content available in Real/Windows Media formats. The result is everyone scrambling for the same QT sources, which unlike streaming media, require tremendous bandwidth. I hope that archive.org is successful in stopping to misuse of their bandwidth.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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05-04-2005 12:13
Simply put, I agree. I support Archive.org -- they do archive Torley Sr.'s music, after all, something I'm very thankful for...  -- and I'm a fan of the FREE information they provide as a service to the public. Fine to watch it inworld, but it oughta be at no charge.
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Athin Veil
Registered User
Join date: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
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05-04-2005 12:14
(edited)
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 12:22
- Pot calling the kettle black? Athin Veil 9/14/2004 Behavior +4 -3 Appearance +3 -3 Building +3 -3 Given +5 -42
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Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
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05-04-2005 12:25
I don't know Dana, but that was a bit uncalled for. The issue he raises is VERY legitimate, and I know that I certainly won't be buying any TV's that leech bandwidth from archive.org. - Ace
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:07
Well I just recieved the most hateful bash of text from the primary seller of these kind's of tv's. He tells me that he'll just update his url's and continue selling archive.org's bandwidth. He and his kind simply do not get it and they're ambition will mean the detriment of honest services like archive.org.
Yay for money!
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Alan Palmerstone
Payment Info Used
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 659
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05-04-2005 13:09
What???
This is supposed to be the next version of the Interweb, people!
How is viewing the movies from within SL any different from viewing from your browser?
As for the bandwidth this uses, it is very small. We are not a large group of people and even less of us are shelling out US$10 for one of these units. It shuts off when you aren't watching it. Dana, when you spoke to archive.org, did you mention that this horrible crime was probably being committed by less than 50 people watching maybe 20 minutes a day? Did you let them know that people who have never heard of them are now aware of what a cool resource it is?
I bought one, specifically for the archive.org content list. I am a big fan of archive.org and a long time viewer. When streaming became available in SL, I was thrilled at the concept, but daunted by what it would take to build something like this. Do you realize the work that went into this? Collecting and verifying the URL's, building the dialog box controls, etc.?
This is a legitimate use of archive.org's content, as they do not limit the viewer that you use. As far as I am concerned, I bought the TV creator's time for creating and verifying the list and making it easy for me to access. It is openly advertised as having content from archive.org. Anyone can do this, he just happened to be the first.
I almost feel that someone should contact archive.org and set them straight on this. There is tons of stolen content in SL. If you want to go after someone, go after the people who hold events charging people to watch current DVD rips. That is illegal. These TV's are just really convenient.
I don't understand why when someone starts making money here, they get jumped on.
I know this is scattered, but it just blows my mind that this really cool device is causing any controversy. Even moreso by the people that are agreeing.
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:12
Maybe because you want to protect your overpriced TV is the reason you don't see the issue here. Archive.org pays for the streams with donations. Archive.org offers them FREE. Mr tv seller guy is selling them. He's not covering ANY of the expense of the stream at all. hmm? What's hard about that?
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Alan Palmerstone
Payment Info Used
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 659
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05-04-2005 13:21
From: Dana Unsung Maybe because you want to protect your overpriced TV is the reason you don't see the issue here. Archive.org pays for the streams with donations. Archive.org offers them FREE. Mr tv seller guy is selling them. He's not covering ANY of the expense of the stream at all. Please! I own a whole sim here. You think US$10 is even going to phase me? Mr. TV seller guy is not selling the streams, he is selling an organized and verified list of the streams. If you want to complain to anyone, talk to LL and ask them to remove streaming video. From: Dana Unsung hmm? What's hard about that? Way to argue!!!!
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Captain Barmy
Pirateocrat
Join date: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
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05-04-2005 13:33
Angel, thanks for passing along this thread. Word. From: Dana Unsung Well I just recieved the most hateful bash of text from the primary seller of these kind's of tv's. He tells me that he'll just update his url's and continue selling archive.org's bandwidth. He and his kind simply do not get it and they're ambition will mean the detriment of honest services like archive.org. Puh-lease. I was simply brushing you off. That's not hateful, it's downright smug. Whatever you do, don't read the rights panel on archive.org: "By providing near-unrestricted access to these films, we hope to encourage widespread use of moving images in new contexts by people who might not have used them before." or this - "This collection is free and open for everyone to use." Free? Open? Everyone? You mean, anyone can use these streams -- even.. wait... "leech their bandwidth?" Until I have a chance to talk to the folks at archive.org and come to an agreement, I've suspended sale of my TVs. Dana, check your posting history. Somehow, I don't think you like me. There's other things to talk about, ya know. Like the polysci forum! Hurrah!  Anyway, gotta run, --CB
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:36
I'm not arguing!
I'm stating facts!
My position has not changed.
Mr. TV seller guy is taking streams offered for free by a not for profit and selling them for profit.
Mr. TV seller guy is selling freely available tools for streaming.
You are arguing with yourself Alan.
Regardless Archive.org is going to change the streams url's eventually, maybe soon. Your tv's will be bunk. Mr. TV seller guy is going to re-enter all those streams. You can then buy it again, and again, and again! Enjoy buying over and over what is FREE!!!
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:38
From: Captain Barmy Until I have a chance to talk to the folks at archive.org and come to an agreement, I've suspended sale of my TVs.
I think that is at the least appropriate. When I spoke to archive.org they were not pleased with anyone selling the streams, if you can convince them that you do otherwise, then more power to you.
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Captain Barmy
Pirateocrat
Join date: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
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05-04-2005 13:40
From: Alan Palmerstone Mr. TV seller guy is not selling the streams, he is selling an organized and verified list of the streams. If you want to complain to anyone, talk to LL and ask them to remove streaming video. Alan, you're dead right on the money. I'm getting negrated in-world over this, accused of being an alt, insulted, etc... (yawn) I do believe I've pissed off a competitor.  Anyway, I'm thinking archive.org's going in my favour here, but I want a certified thumbs up/down so I don't have to bother with these forums. I've got better things to do 
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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05-04-2005 13:41
From: Captain Barmy --- Until I have a chance to talk to the folks at archive.org and come to an agreement, I've suspended sale of my TVs. --- --CB
Excellent! Am looking forward to hearing the results of your contact with archive.org. This could be a win/win for all involved. 
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:44
From: Captain Barmy Alan, you're dead right on the money. I'm getting negrated in-world over this, accused of being an alt, insulted, etc... (yawn) I do believe I've pissed off a competitor.  Anyway, I'm thinking archive.org's going in my favour here, but I want a certified thumbs up/down so I don't have to bother with these forums. I've got better things to do  hahaha you are the one who has passed out neg rates with your alts! Jeez you are an alt! You have attacked my business, pestered my customers, snooped my developments, insulted me numerous times, slandered me and my products, and to top it off you play innocent!!!!! wtf?? I have contacted archive.org and no matter how you cut it they don't want YOU or anyone selling the streams they host! Got it yet??? Greedy poser pretend noobs playing innocent and doing anything for a dollar!!!! Why don't you just rob the linden freebies and sell those as well? Is one different than another? I think not!
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Captain Barmy
Pirateocrat
Join date: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 187
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05-04-2005 13:48
From: Dana Unsung hahaha you are the one who has passed out neg rates with your alts! Jeez you are an alt! You have attacked my business, pestered my customers, snooped my developments, insulted me numerous times, slandered me and my products, and to top it off you play innocent!!!!! wtf?? Actually, I really am new to SL; started in March '05. Thanks for the warm introduction  End of me posting until I hear back from archive.org.
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Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
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05-04-2005 13:53
If people arnt selling streams then can we just post the lists here? 
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:54
From: Captain Barmy Actually, I really am new to SL; started in March '05. Thanks for the warm introduction  End of me posting until I hear back from archive.org. Actually you are an alt as you admitted when we spoke in world. What's the concern with telling the same here? What are you hiding? I suspect alot. It took archive.org 3 days to get back to me so I expect we won't hear from you for a bit.
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 13:55
From: Chris Wilde If people arnt selling streams then can we just post the lists here?  Chris that is an excellent idea!
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Ursula Madison
Chewbacca is my co-pilot
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 713
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05-04-2005 14:05
The TV seller isn't selling the streams any more than Sony is selling television broadcasts. They are both selling a reciever capable of picking up the content that others are providing. I don't see what all the fuss is about. Archive.org is providing these free streams, yes... the TV is scripted to utilize the free streams.
The only thing that worries me is that if the TVs increase the bandwidth costs for Archive.org due to increased popularity of their streams. If it gets too costly, they will take steps to curb those costs... or they'll go under. Websites have been killed by their own popularity when their costs have skyrocketed.
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Dana Unsung
Member
Join date: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 62
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05-04-2005 14:14
Ursula
Mr. TV seller guy is selling those streams. He has coded every url into his tv's so that they come with the product. He charges for this product. If he wanted to be kind to archive.org he would just offer an html link to archive.org so people could choose what they want to watch. As is people ARE buying his tv and streams. There is no difference in his package. He is profiting off of the free service from archive.org. If he wanted to DL the streams and host them himself that would be more reasonable, but he's not gonna do that cause his profit margin, which at this point is 100%, would fall well into the red. Frankly the cost that he chooses to ignore would quickly be realized if he chose to host the streams himself.
Who cares right? Not your money. Not my money. Not Mr. TV sellers money. Just some .org that we don't care about at all and just want to use for our own needs till its gone.
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