One comment about love ...

OK, since you decided to call it quits, so will I. I was going to anyway...

My closing thought though, is to look at your speaking of being born-again, in the christian and bhuddist sense.

To a Bhuddist, the term would refer to reincarnation, a physical process, and a step on the road to Nirvana, be that step forward or back would depend on how you live your life.

To a Christian, it's spiritual, the abandoning of 'original sin', dieing and being reborn in Christ through baptism. All Christians go through this, not just one exclusive sect. That some lose their way later is irrelevant.

Jesus came to save all mankind, not just his followers. Yes, it's impossible, according to Jesus, for a non-christian to enter heaven. He also said it's not impossible for God to allow them in anyway if they lead a good life.

Or is there no hope at all for those who died before Christ's birth?

I don't seek an answer to this... it's just a thought...

Just relax, have fun, have a drink if you like. It's a wonderful day out there.

To anyone reading the above post: I hope you will peruse this list and see how dead on the author is about some of these cliches and formulaic responses. The above post from Jon is rife with them.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/christiancliches.html

http://www.weirdcrap.com/recreational/cliche.html

I always find it interesting that each religion believes they are the one true religion, with the only keys to the kingdom of heaven. Newsflash, you are all worshipping the same God, and ultimately living by similar principles. You may have different books, different idols, different names for things, but you are all ultimately worshipping a higher power. I always find it laughable when someone is arrogant enough to say that only their religion is going to heaven.

I hate to break it to you there Jon, but none of knows what comes next. I was raised Catholic, though as I am getting older I find my views leaning more towards Bhuddism than anything else. Jews, Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, etc... all believe they have the one true path to heaven. I guess we will all find out in the end.

As far as the bible and gay people, I also always find this one laughable too.So many things are justified by using the bible, while conveniently glossing over other parts that you also don't want to point out. According to the bible, it is an abomination (some punishable by death) to:

* lie with another man
* eat shellfish
* cut your hair
* have sex with a woman on her period
* wear a garment that is a blend of two textiles
* planting more than one kind of seed in a field

Some other fun things from the Bible:
* Women should be silent in church and subservient to men
* It is fine to own slaves as long as they are from neighboring countries.
* Women should not be allowed to teach or have any authority over a man
* Put disobedient children to death

So I ask of you, Jon, how you can conveniently pick and choose only those passages that support your particular beliefs, but overlook the rest. It seems to me quite hypocritical and ignorant. The Bible reflected the views of society at the time it was written. To not recognize that society has grown and changed is just silly, and that is reflected in your narrowminded views.

I conclude by quoting the Showtime series Queer as Folk, which even as a straight person I enjoy watching. After watching a Christian minister give a sermon on the dangers of homosexuality and how the bible says it is an abomination, two gay men asked him if they could ask him a question. They asked the minister if he enjoyed shrimp, which he said he certainly did. When asked why he practices an abomination, he stuttered but had no answer. Finally, one of the men said "Well if you can eat shrimp, we can eat c*ck".

One of the many inherent flaws with most organized religion is it's belief that everyone must conform or they will not pass on to whatever glorious afterlife that awaits the righteous.
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An Example:

So an innocent baby is born to a loving couple that grow up in another country where the predominant religion is NOT Christianity. They raise their child and are devoted and strongly believe in this other religeon, as does a good 70% of the inhabitants of that country.

The child grows up a wonderful person, doing many great things and enriching so many peoples lives. NHe is virtually without sin, leads a pure and giving life, and dies at a ripe old age, content and happy to with his span here on earth.

So according to christianity, the wonderful soul will never be able to enter heaven , but will instead, in all likelyhood, go to hell?? Because they happen to be born in a country that believed in another, non-violent and wise religion?

------------------

And you really desire to follow a god that would do that to someone? That is that arrogant, narrow-sighted, cruel and egotistical? Umm...I think to preserve my own sense of worth and morality, I'd have to thumb my nose at any god so cruel and unjust, and whistle a tune as I headed for hell.

And has anyone ever read the old testement? Talk about sining by gods prophets and chosen ones. You have drunkeness, 'murder, kidnapping, incest, rape...yadda yadda, and often with the help of an angel or god's direct intervention. Gee...oh please..let me follow "your" god..cause he's so worth following. Yes..I see the light! Oh wait..no..that's just the effects of the brainwashing. Geez. I feel sorry for folks that are always looking outside for something to believe in instead of just looking at themselves and their own behavior and living good lives, secure in the knowledge that they will find out what happens after death, all too soon

There were many. many religions before christianity, so really, why is it the one true religion? Because you "feel" it in your soul? Well, so does every other fanatic in every other religion.

If anyone is interested in finding out about Christianity from a moderate, well-thought out position, they should IM me in world and if there is enough interest I will put myself on the soapbox at an event to answer all questions put to me.

Over three-quarters of a million words? Check.

Anthology of stories conceived of and written by humans based on pre-existing mythology? Check.

Originally produced as several different books, intended by the writers to be published as a single volume? Check.

Contains the story of ultimate forces of good and evil (who was originally good)? Check.

Broadly interpreted by readers to produce many different "truths"? Check.

Adapted several times into Oscar-winning films? Check.

...

They may both match all of the above, but I'd still rather reread The Lord of the Rings than The (Christian) Bible.

So an innocent baby is born to a loving couple that grow up in another country where the predominant religion is NOT Christianity. They raise their child and are devoted and strongly believe in this other religeon, as does a good 70% of the inhabitants of that country.

The child grows up a wonderful person, doing many great things and enriching so many peoples lives. NHe is virtually without sin, leads a pure and giving life, and dies at a ripe old age, content and happy to with his span here on earth.

So according to christianity, the wonderful soul will never be able to enter heaven , but will instead, in all likelyhood, go to hell?? Because they happen to be born in a country that believed in another, non-violent and wise religion?

Not all Christian religions believe that. At least the Mormons don't.

wow never herd that before that would suck.

I suspect that underneath it all, this is the crux of the matter for Jon and his ilk.

They're basically just creeped out by the butt thing.

I used to worry about things like this too until I finally had sex and realized that what I do with my naughty bits is really no more or less disgusting than what other people do with theirs, no matter their orientation.

Over the course of my college career, I also learned that some people use religion as guidance for their own lives, and other use it as a means to look down on others' lives.

Sad, really. We can only pity him in his pathetic little bigoted world.

well if you get a rectual rip it has a hard tiem healing cause of what it comes in contact with an left untreated can give you blood poisoning. there is a reason it closes up snug.

If that were the case then hemmorhoids would be fatal. Apparently this does not apply to walking, talking, breathing hemmorhoids either.

Yippee, a holy roller thread!

Trying to get into a religious debate is something I normally avoid, because as I see it, religious/spiritual beliefs are very personal. However, I'll take advantage of this discussion and give you my opinions. Interpret them however you want, flame me, stomp on me, pray for me, whatever, because I don't care. They are my beliefs.

I grew up in a Christian family. As a teenager, I became involved in a church youth group outside of my own church (mainly because of the cute guys and the fun choir tours), and the idea that was pounded into my head was that "if you are not a Christian (meaning, being saved ie 'born again', you will go to hell". That bothered me deeply. I went to high school with a large Jewish community and these people were my friends. How could they possibly go to hell? Babies are not born again. How could that precious little thing who never had a chance at life go to hell? As I grew older, I realized how silly that was, and over the years, I developed my own beliefs, beliefs that give me comfort, because, after all, only one entity will judge me in the end.

I believe in God. I pray to Him, I ask for forgiveness, I ask Him to guide me. I base how I live my life on the 10 commandments. I treat all others with respect and decency.

I believe there is no one true religion. All people of this world are entitled to their beliefs. If they choose to belong to an organized religion, then so be it. If they choose to be atheist, so be it. It's not my business.

The bible was written by men. One of the funniest things to me was in recent months, with the premier of "The Passion of Christ" was the number of people who said "I am so glad to finally know what really happened". Hmmmm... I also believe that Mel Gibson is a savvy producer who was looking out for that bottom line.

I believe that God gives us free will. We are not His robots. Tragedies happen, unfortunately. Choices that we make are our own.

I believe there has been enough scientific evidence to show that homosexuals are born that way. Their mommies did not make them gay, they did not choose that lifestyle. I have 2 gay cousins, a gay stepson and gay friends. My boss (female) is gay and married to another woman. She is probably the kindest, most decent human I have ever met.

I believe that marriage is a union of 2 people, whatever their sexual orientation. Gay marriages and common-law marriages are ok in my book. If you choose to perform your vows to each other, by way of a JP or a minister, that's your business. I happened to want mine legal AND done by a minister (both times...hehehe) so that's what I chose.

I could keep going but I won't...you're probably all sick of this by now anyway.

I believe that born again Christians will figure I am going to hell.

Oh well.



Lia

That seems to be a reasonable assumption. So lesbians are okay then, right?

Jon,

Your reply has left me more confused than ever. It seems that only very few people who profess themselves to be Christian will actually avoid the fire-pits. In fact the vast majority of us seem to be destined for eternal torment.

It's only the right sort of Christian who will be saved, and of the other races only those who renounce the religion into which they have been born and brought up can possibly achieve salvation.

Siobhan brought up a valid point - what about those who were born before the days of Christ? And I would say what about those Africans, for example, before the days of the missionaries? They would never have *heard* of Jesus. They would spend an eternity of pain being punished for their ignorance?

I'm afraid it does still seem to me to be a matter of geography, or of circumstance, to be more precise. If the God you worship selects people on that basis as to whether they spend the afterlife in joy or pain, it seems to me that there is little to choose between him and the Satan you profess to abhor.

This is the simplest and best explanation I have ever heard for why many/most men think male homosexuality is offensive and female homosexuality is OMGHOT. With a brief followup about how precious masculine ego must be preserved, and the visual stimuli of multiple nude women, and so forth.

You people are all overreacting.
Being tolerant is all about respecting people's views even though you strongly disagree with them.
As long as he isn't going around chasing homosexual men and women with a pitchfork, I believe his views should damn well be tolerated. Christians are in the majority, after all
One thing is going around saying gay people should be tortured to death, something completely different is saying that homosexuality kinda freaks him out and so he is against it.
Whatever his views are, lets just put an end to the drama and go do something productive, mmkay?

Yessir.

- an over reactor.

Bleh.

What does Christians being in the majority have to do with anything?

Remember this, if something bothers you enough to chime in and make generalized, sanctimonious remarks and or suggestions, in this case parental type orders, you always have the right to not read or participate. But that would ruin all your fun now wouldnt it? NN

edited for spelling

Look, in portugal we have a saying that is more or less untranslatable, but the gist of it is, you should always agree with lunatics.
Jon is obviously one of those incorruptible (incorrigible? ) christians who will never stray an inch from whatever ideals they follow.
Attempting to reason with these people is fruitless, since their religion mandates that people should act on blind faith rather than solid logic. Ever tried explaining to those annoying Jehovah's Witnesses that there is no god, and that the world was not created, etc. ?
It's pointless. Where religion is concerned, you should follow our portuguese saying. When confronted with a lunatic, dont speak against him, just nod and smile politely
Heck, these days I dont even mention to the JWs that I'm atheist. I tell them that yes I would love to have their magazine and that I love the LORD, but I'm kinda busy and cant stay to chat.
I dont waste my time, and they dont get to whine about these horrible godless youngsters... so we both end up happy. Their magazine is actually interesting, sometimes

Gotcha. And I agree wholeheartedly. Apologies for my harsh response. Your post didn't seem that in depth, I should've delved a little deeper. NN

So... the new plan is... to agree with Jon Morgan..?

I can play that game!!!

How can you pass up that kind of free entertainment? I invite them in, offer them a beverage, and then do everything I can to make them question their own faith until they leave... usually flustered. Prosyletizing is annoying. If someone comes to the door with the intention of changing my belief system then their's is fair game too

Dae,

Never would I agree with Jon, I was only agreeing in theory to Eggy's expanded points about lunatics. He didn't make them known in the post I responded to first. (for me at least). I am assuming most of it was tongue in cheek at this point.

I am generally a tolerant person except when it comes to people with either too much or too little conviction. Jon falls into the former category of course, and I will debate him any time he opens a debate up, which is what he did by bringing his twisted, unresearched, viewpoint on this issue to the forums. The rant section at that. If he didn't want or deserve a response I really don't understand why in the hell he brought it here. NN

Mmm.. okay, back to the original method. *nodnod*

Trying my hardest not to *really* get into the meat of this thread (which by the way I actually think has probably educated a few people.. NOLAN! excellent links thank you!!) ..

Those who really know me will know what an open and hosest person I am. I walked the path of the Ultra Fundamental Christian for almost 2 years of my life. I can even name the day I was "saved". October 8th, 1997. As a passionate person, I delved as deep into my new found beliefs as anyone could imagine.

For most who have given reasons here against the Ultra Fundamental views, I can give you the answers that most of them would give you. Amazing as it is, it can be food for thought.

I'm not Christian. I was raised by a Pagan and four Athiests. hehe.. But if anyone ever wants to hear the story about what I went through, and hear from a ex-believer the answers to some of the questions presented, I"m more than happy to talk about it.

LOL Chip I love you
Well I just dont have an awful lot of spare time. Plus, they usually intercept me on the street to give me magazines.. I havent had a JW visit me in years. Thank God for that