One comment about love ...

As a practising christian, I cannot agree more.

So far, he's insulted Gays, Bhuddists, Programmers and several people personally. And has come close to insulting christians too. It's this attidude that is the reason so many people dislike it.

Jesus preached love for your neighbour. He also preached acceptance of other people. He, to use the vernacular, hung out with the undesireables of his day... including at least one prostitute.

Jon, if someone fails to reach your standards, then feel free to tell them, then forgive and move on, but be damned sure you do live to the standards you preach or you will be called on it. All this drama does nobody any good.

Oh, and just as a troll to finish up... remember, Jesus was a palestinian jew... middle-eastern, arabic... not a middle class white american as so many of these born-again types seem to think. You may not think this Jon, but it's an attitude I've come across far to often.

Thank you Dae, for putting a human face on an issue that is so often spoken of with abstracts and stereotypes. It was brave of you, and I respect you for it.

I really don't get why the whole issue surrounding gay marriage, and the main argument for it is some utterly bizarre notion that Christians own the word 'marriage'. It's a word, when you look at it as defined under the law. What it is means different things to many different people depending on each individual, culture, religion and personal experience. Just like 'love', just like 'good movie' just like 'inexpensive'. It's language. A word. A word that happens to appear in phrasing of law as a union with 'x' benefits.

This isn't forcing evangelical or even more liberal churches to perform marriages as they define it. It's allowing the same legal benefits to people who love each other and share their lives. They are not one in the same. Letting it be legal does not mean the church has to change their definition of marriage.

But people don't listen. This same argument comes up time and time again. That churches own the word marriage, and the bible says marriage is this. It does not own the word, and that takes the feet out of any argument against /not/ legalizing it.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'd like to say that I'm proud to live in Canada, where the government stays a healthy step away from anything religious. And where people - any two people who want to join together and share their lives can, with full legal benefits under the law.

Well if you see my views concerning homosexuality and Bhuddism as insulting, I do not see or understand how. I have my views and I feel they are appropriate. I certainly never intended insult people personally, although people do ostracize me successfully at times and I explain why. But as for programmers and Christians, I am both; why would I insult myself? I'm not so stupid.

You call your self a "practicing Christian", but there is a difference between practicing its teachings and being reborn. My observation has been that "practicing Christians" come in two forms: rubber-like care-free people who have no sense of firm ground about the convictions of God, and over-zealous hatemongers who really do hurl insults at people and tell people that they are bad people. I do not consider myself the latter, and I trust you are not the former, so perhaps you accidentally used bad terminology here. Are you born-again and sealed with the Spirit of God, or do you just carry the "Christian" label?

I do not think homosexuals or Buddhists or anyone else here is bad. I do think many of them are deceived, however, and in compassion I expressed my concerns. If you find that insulting, I am unsurprised. I certainly didn't expect these people to throw their arms around me and tell me how wonderful I am for speaking into their lives. And I get nothing out of it. Nonetheless, I am unapologetic, because I care about these people more than myself.

If you trap your mind in a box, the box is all you'll ever see.

And if God gives you a much bigger picture, you suddenly understand life's dangers. In ugly detail.

I prefered your original un-edited post, Jon...

God was a bit of an afterthought there... hope you havent hurt his feelings

I have a habit of post the vague idea first, go back and clarify afterwards.

And I'm tired.

Daemioth,

Fantastic post! I had been about to respond to some of the sillier and self-deluding things that Jon said, but after your post there is no need.

Thanks for that.

You're correct. Practicinng it's teachings is following the teachings of Christ, and basically being Christian.

Being reborn, if you're any example, is about pretending that there's something better about your particular cult, and telling other people they're wrong.

Not very christian... in fact, I'd go so far as to say anti-christian.

But still, I wasn't put here to judge you. I'll let you continue to deceive yourself. It's your actions which should prove you better, not your accusations!

As someone said earlier in the thread, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'.

*thread jacking*


I know of God but I can't claim to be Christian due to the nature of my being and how I live, doesn't mean I dont respect Him. Though I dislike MOST of His followers



I once met this person who was religious. He said women who wore pants/jeans lost their salvation and are going to hell.


.....Guess I'm going to hell.


Edit: edited for generalism (oooh.. -isms are catching.)

There he goes with the labelling again. Disguise thet self righteous innuendo inside a transparent question all you want. It's glaringly evident that you believe, while trashing atheists, other religions as well as other Christians, think you have a direct line to *God*. The only one at that.

The saddest part of this in my mind is that these organizations seem to prey on certain types. Usually in High School or College, but not always. I have seen it happen to my friend, my step sisters, and a couple co-workers.They become self righteous and alienated from friends and family. When they are available to interact with non like minded folks they usually evangelize profusely, then claim they are being ostracized. It just makes me sadder each time. I sit and wonder: "Who are they trying to convince? Me? Or themselves?" Zeal doesn't usually convince most folks of anything save that the zealot(s) are fanatical.

The following are some excerpts from a website that I think sums up how I feel on this issue quite well and it's written by an ex born-again person:

"It is important to realize that Christianity invented sin. Then, Christianity offers to "fix" it so the sinner can go to heaven. Its sort of like having someone punch you in the eye and then sell you ice to keep the swelling down."

"When a born again fundamentalist Christian speaks of salvation or matters regarding his spiritual beliefs, he usually backs up his statements by quoting the bible to prove his authority. He quotes biblical verses taken from various areas of the bible in a certain sequence. The quotes and the sequence serve as the authority to prove that the statements are true."

I think this person really hits it on the head. NN

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/why.html

That's an excellent quote, and exactly the way I see religion... especially the more fanatical Christian varieties. Religion steals away things you already have... self worth, empowerment, courage, love, self determination... and then offers to sell it back to you claiming to be the sole source. The truly sad thing is that all those things come from within you all along. They were never religion's to take, and certainly never religion's to offer.

Dae, thanks for that really excellent post. It helps to put a human face on the damage that religion can do to the psyche. Guilt is a powerful tool to use in manipulating people which is why the central tenants of religion all revolve around it. Convince people that they're completely screwed and then present yourself as the only solution. It's the oldest scam known to mankind... one the current US administration has learned very well.

I don't really have a problem with religion as philosophy, even though I disagree with many of its maxims. People for whom religion serves as a framework for their self-exploration aren't the problem. People like Jon for whom religion is a justification for seeing the world through a suspicious and myopic "us versus them" view have had their humanity mostly stripped away. They're empty shells who traded their rationalism and self-worth for a case of snake oil and a crusader's flag.

If you think Jesus basically only said "don't judge" and just hung out with the tax collectors and the prostitutes, you're mistaken. By the way, I hardly consider my hanging out here to be a church meeting. And I certainly don't consider myself a "judge" .. do you see me passing actual judgments? Judgment is taking action against someone for crimes they've committed, not merely restating Truth.

So again let me ask, if "practicing Christian" means "following the teachings of Christ, and basically being Christian", are you therefore born again?

I ask it because Christ Himself came up with the idea of being born again!

John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (Note: To a Buddhist, to be born again is to be a failure. You do subscribe to Christ's teachings, right, Siobhan?)

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (This also indicates "bigoted" exclusivity of Christianity. Do you like to associate with Christ now, Siobhan?)

So what is this "born again" stuff? It is the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, who saves mankind. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God" 1 John 5:1.

Why is being "born again" recognized by some experience?

More teachings of Christ ... 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" Ephesians 1:13, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

These are just a few things I would lay out to you, Siobhan, that if you are not "born again" you most certainly do NOT follow the teachings of Christ, nor you "being a Christian", because to be is to enter into that existence.

Again, I'm not judging you, I'm educating you, since you opted to renounce the legitimacy of my participation on this thread, and doing said renouncing in the name of Jesus. If you don't want to hear it, why did you post here?

As for insulting Buddhism, homosexuals, programmers, and Christians, ...

As you can see above, Buddhism is incompatible with Christianity, so you see I did NOT insult Buddhism, I simply acknowledged that it is incompatible with my faith. Did I insult homosexuals? The teachings of the Bible include many references to homosexuality as being akin to hatred, slander, theiving, cheating, and so forth, but I have NOT gone that far in this or any other thread, I merely pointed out that gayness is a distortion of sexuality, which is the truth as I perceive it according to the Creator's design. I also said I am concerned for homosexuals because they're hurting themselves, but that is not judgment, it is protective love, the kind that becomes sad when people's lives are torn apart because they refuse to listen.

I feel I have been attacked and insults many times over already in this thread, while I have attacked and insulted no one. But who's keeping score?

I'm not even going to bother responding to this waffle.

You are right in what Jesus said. You are extremely wrong in your interpretation. It's attitudes like yours which spawned the crusades, and on the other side, that spawn the likes of Osma Bin Laden.

Jesus said a lot of things. Not just a single quote. He also said there'd be more joy in heaven over a single repentant sinner than over 100 righteous people.

Get over your judgements. Learn tolerance for other peoples beliefs even if you don't accept them.

As I said, let your actions speak for you. Your words are certainly not helping.

And by the way, don't EVER think to "educate" me again. Thank you.

Again I ask, WHO IS JUDGING???? I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about!

Tolerance? Who is being intolerant?? I merely said "this is my view" and "this is incompatible with Christianity" and "this is what Christianity believes", and yes, these things relate to the perceived errors of others. Where are you getting these weird ideas of "juding" and "intolerance" from? Not from me! Do you see me saying "Gays are going to hell and are bad people"? Do you see me saying "you are all bad people if you disagree with me"? As I said, it's one thing to judge, it's another thing to express concern.

HOW DARE YOU bring Osama bin Laden and the Crusaders into this! I would NEVER be cruel or harsh toward ANYONE for my beliefs. I see Christ and the design of the Creator as exclusive truth, but that doesn't mean I will MAKE people agree or abuse people for disagreeing!

Chip, Nolan... again, good posts.

But Chip, not all Christians are extremists like him. Most of us don't need to constantly belittle other people and their beliefs. Unfortunately, it would seem that you've only met 'christians' of Jon's type. His beliefs are well...

Jesus himself spoke often of the behaviour of religious nuts in his time. Seems some things never change.

Jon,

One thing I've never understood about the more - um - orthodox type of Christianity.

According to your religion, only those who are saved will go to heaven, and everybody else will suffer eternal torment. Is this right, or have I got it wrong?

Assuming this is right, then it seems to me that whether you are a Christian or not depends mainly on which part of the world you inhabit. If you are American, and not belonging to any religio/ethnic group, then you are likely to be a Christian. If you live in the middle East, you are likely to be a Muslim. If you are an inhabitant of India, you might well be Hindu or Sikh.

Assuming that those people who belong to other religions are automatically condemned to eternal torment, does this not mean that God selects those to be saved largely on the basis of geography?

Perhaps I have just misunderstood.

I don't think anyone has deliberately attacked you Jon, rather many have tried to educate you on the inherent arrogance of your 'born-again' belief system and the basic flaws of your religon as many others see it.

On the other hand, it's pretty silly to act astonished and surprised that people get somewhat insulted when you keep insisting their life is worthless because of what they believe. Telling people they aren't good enogh to discuss ethics because they don't believe in your brand of religon is another example and it's rather lame to complain about their reactions to it.

From where I sit, your type of 'love' is condesending, arrogant, self-serving and demeaning to others. You say you want to discuss god and all, but you don't. All you want is to preach your dogma. You can't actually discuss god because as you've said, if someone has a differing opinion, they're automatically wrong.

You can't have a true discussion because you admittedly begin your sermon convinced of your own moral superiority and the opposing view as inferior. Then act all hurt when the other people say that it's your views that are flawed, not theirs.

If you truly want a conversation, then converse, but if you only want to sermonize don't be surprised when others tell you to hit the bricks.

I know of many Christians all around the world... Typically, American Christians (unfortunately, that would include me) are in a boat where the vast majority of them are lukewarm about their faith and only appreciate God when He gives them fancy cars and comfortable homes and fixes their problems. Ours is a spoiled society; the Christians on the other side of the planet are actually the far more admirable Christian ideal, as they are usually living in very poor standards of living, hence their faith is exercised daily and they are the sweetest and most sincerest of Christians.

Geography is irrelevant, although people do tend to like to group according to their religious interests.

Take a look at Africa. That place has been going through a surge of Christianity over the last several years.

Guys, let me make this clear.

You gay people, since you were brought up, it seems that the Bible says you aren't going to heaven, but I would rather it not be that way, and I will always show respect for you. However, I do think you're hurting yourselves, and I know that even though you don't "feel" it, there is a better path to pursue in Christ.

You who pursue other religions? It seems that you are all deceived, and that if you don't pursue the exclusivity of Jesus, then, according to Jesus, you aren't going to heaven. Does that mean I don't love you? Not at all. God bless you, and I hope He reveals Himself to you. I would be unloving if I did not share. I will always try to be friendly to you online and respect your decision for the path you have chosen.

To those of you who see Christianity as being abusive of others... I do not associate myself with abortion clinic bombers, the Crusaders, nor Osama bin Laden. And if God wants to judge anyone, that's his prerogative; as His child, however, we Christians would be hateful and abusive if we did NOT make the observations of His warnings.

Those of you who see me as an extremist terrorist, ... hmm I don't get it. God bless you, though, maybe Jesus can soften your hearts.

Sio, I was raised Christian and all of my family is still practicing except for me. I disagree with religion in general, but I really have no problem with moderate and liberal Christians. Like I said, religion as a framework for self-understanding is fine with me, even if I don't agree with its conclusions. Many of the most tolerant, intelligent, and all around wonderful human beings I know are Christians. But as far as I'm concerned the credit for that belongs with each individual, not with their religion.

I think religious people fall into two basic categories... the first type sees their religion as secondary to their humanity. They're members of the family of man first, and Christians second. I have no problem with those kinds of people. They're the same as me... just with a different philosophical view. Their faith is an offshoot of their humanism.

The second type sees their religion as defining who they are and as something that makes them fundamentally different from those who do not share their views. They are the people who can justify pretty much anything in the name of their faith, and who think their bigotry isn't bigotry because it's God's will that they should hold everyone different as beneath them. It's not a kind of thinking that's limited to fundamentalist Christians. It's a disease shared by fundamentalists of every stripe. The moment you let something take precedance over your humanity you've crossed the line. It's that type of person that's responsible for 90% of all the wars ever waged. Jon is a perfect example of this type of person. I honestly think he doesn't understand that he's a bigot, hence the "Who's judging?!" and genuine bewilderment at the negative reactions he's receiving for his views. God taught him to be intolerant, so it must be okay.

Just as nationalism is indoctrinated in people to keep them loyal and willing to fight and kill for their country, so too is religion used to keep people loyal and dependant on their flock and distrustful of all others. They're basically the same thing with different packaging... a psychological tool. "Onward Christian Soldiers..."

If you are going to interpret rebuttals and differing viewpoints as insults then Jon, you will be at this game a LONG time.

I would like to point out something about the terminology of *born-again*.

We are born in sin according to the bible. (How I have no idea since to sin I thought one must make a choice. Babies don't choose to be born. Unless of course you believe that we are born bearing the sins of our ancestors, which I am fairly sure you do) So a group takes two words *born again* which has been filtered through Emperors, Kings, Popes, Scribes, Heretics, et al. and they adopt it as their main precept and then juxtaposes it along side *born into sin*. Two different allegorical biblical references used to create the foundation for a self righteous, exclusionary religion of their own.

This is one of the problems with direct interpretations of the Bible. Not only are the books centuries old they have been translated several times and bent to the ends that certain powers that be desired throughout history.

Could not have Jesus simply meant to gain access to heaven you needed to at some point in your life recognize him as the son of god, realize that he died for your sins, and accept him into your heart? Can one interpret what he said in John 3:3 to say that we should form an exclusionary group of of christians who base their entire methodology upon two words that were translated through, Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc. etc. centuries ago?

Yes they can AND do.

MTV has been very vocal in the past 5 years or so about tolerance, and has spoken out very strongly against racism and homophobia. You will find the current generation of children and teeangers, which MTV is geared towards, is far more tolerant than previous generations. The entire sea change over the past 5-10 years in the media about gay people is a very sure sign that a significant change has occured.

*scratches down notes on notepad*

Jon Morgan: Hater. Closeted Bigot. Superiority Complex.

Conclusion: Avoid. Completely brainwashed and takes any critique as an attack. Avoid.

Another shining example of a non judgemental post...bleh. *Lukewarm*? That isn't a judgement? I think it is and a very broad one at that.



And another..



And yet another..

Jon you think your eyes have been opened by your spiritual epiphany. I am sure none of us can convince you otherwise. Only you can do that. But you seem to be pretty good at convincing yourself...so who knows?