Question about banning players

Well said Justice

Give me a freakin' break thats all I gotta say. I agree with griefers like a reaction and certain people just don't quit and add to it. They expect lindens to babysit, give me a break. Were supposed to be grown ups. IGNORE THE GRIEFER.

THank you for removing that Taylor. This is not about any one person, this is about the Linden response to abuse and violations of TOS in SL.

PS - Candie is also responsible for the state of the economy.

Good lord.

So now griefing is synonymous with PTSD, it causes real pain and isolation, and the lindens should do MORE to stop this CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. TAR AND FEATHER THE MENTALLY-WEAK GRIEFERS! OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! i DEMAND MY JUSTICE!

Pfft.

Every online space since USENET was invented in the 1980's had has its share of griefers. It has happened, it IS happening, and it WILL happen in the future.

Once again, the community is crawling up to the lindens, tugging their proverbial pantlegs, demanding they stop the mean o' bully wully before he takes their lunch money again.

And once again, the lindens take a step back off the playground and wait for the kids to solve it themselves.

Let's envision a possible/likely scenario from this stupid mob justice thread:

1) People get all antsy in their pantsy about griefers again.
2) People start posting names of "griefers".
3) "Griefers" get harassed, attacked, nuked, and threatened for about a week.
4) Griefing mob justice stops after the perceived "threat" is swept under the rug in order to make room for the new drama/issue of the week.

Look, what do you want the lindens to do. What IS griefing, to you? What's griefing to you may be totally different from what I consider griefing. How are the lindens supposed to objectively draw the squiggly line that says "okay, you can do this, but NOT this"

I would imagine that the majority of bannings/suspensions of reponses to griefs would be because the people went OVER THE LINE. Hey, imagine that, gurmpy people in SL going over the line in order to prove a point?

Totally, completely unfathomable. Doesn't happen.

*coughFederalcough1.2cough1.1coughGrimmycoughclubelitecough*

Sorry, I've got a bit of an allergic reaction to mob justice.

SO go ahead, really, demand some sort of visceral satisfaction from the lindens. Drag Philip from his governor's mansion and demand every "bad guy"'s head on a platter. Make 1.4 the paradise you want it to be, with nerfed scripting languages and permanent land bannings that go 764 meters int he air, just because you don't want to get firebombed.

Or, just wait a week, and the issue will be swept under the rug, as usual.

Wondering why I bother reading the forums,
LF

There are three sound reasons why I won't address your situation.

1. I wasn't speaking to you in the first place with my initial post(s).

2. I don't know you or your situation.

3. Even if you were somehow magically able to prove that I was speaking to/about you, I never said you "asked for it."



I would love to read it.



Perhaps I was unable to support it to *your* satisfaction.



I don't think any of these points were ever disputed. When the world is a perfect place and there is no grief to be had, we'll all get along great.

In the meantime, those who are unable to deal with the heat of the kitchen would be advised to step out of it.

Candie, listen - if that statement does not apply to you, great! I'm happy for you. Because never once did I ever say, in any of my posts, that it applies to you.

I do not know you or your situation, and therefore I cannot address it. I never did. That you want to presume I was speaking about you is something you're going to have to deal with all by yourself.

Or, since you do love to force people to back up what they're saying, how about offering up proof that anything I've said has anything to do with you in particular?



I have no opinion on that. Were you expecting one?



If someone should approach you in real life with a fist, and I am nearby, I guarantee you justice will be served as long as I am physically and mentally able to deliver it...

...because that's a whole 'nuther ballgame, ma'am.

-JMonde

It's really a shame when people who choose to slice a distinct line between online and real life insinuate that others not of the same thought school are weak minded.(thicker skin thing etc.) One might wonder if that means we are supposed to behave as automatons. Oh yay! A world of either morally bankrupt people or those who CHOOSE to be indifferent. Ok everyone, greifers are here, go into NPC mode. Let's look at Cris' post. He was simply asking how much does it take? When and where will the line be drawn? In reference to REPEAT offenders. Ignoring them has NOT made them go away. I have personally seen at least 4 events disrupted in the last month by the same 5 or 6 individuals. 2 of them actually showed up at a friends home where I was visiting and started making lewd and vulgar comments. Neither of us had ever met either of them. Is that beneficial to the overall atmosphere of the game? Sure I can ban them and mute them. But it just irks me when I go to another disrupted event and see those same individuals. Perhaps I wouldn't have had to deal with them and muting and banning if they had been dealt with after the first few event grievings. Then people threw in the quit whining crap and the victim brings it on crap. Sigh, I am sure you will keep banging the victim drum and using it to dismiss people of a different mindset than you. Remeber this was about known repeat offenders. All the rhetoric in the world will not erase the fact that it's not fun to have Linden sponsored events repeatedly disrupted by a handful people.

Agreed, Nolan... no matter how much you try to ignore them, there are some who just won't quit. If it was RL, I'd have had them jailed by now...

Drink two Weizens and call me in the mornin'.

-JMonde

No you haven't & that's your paticular issue here.. this thread has been well hijacked to high hell btw.



If that little sell to anyone is checked thats the risk you take now unfortunately. Hope this maybe a warning to people in the future?



They're grifers.. kk got it well hmm.. Bummer, call a Linden... file an abuse report?

kk sorry not funny I know...



You obviously care about Sage alot... so I just want to say sorry first here.

But just talking to them & asking them to play nice isn't goin to work. Your past that stage. You need to give them more of a challenge and/or adapt to thier ways.

I can't tell you how to do that complete effectively with the current tools we have.

Ill quote this again & give my obligatory.
I endorse this product/service.



Because we do need to have better control over our land period.

Some possible solutions given your situation though...
-A partial lock down of the area once the event has begun.
maybe clear walls extending around the perimeter of the majority your property.
-Get a security system. They're out there I think. Theres gotta be some scripting wizards out there who have made some cool shit?
-Have an alternate/back-up location for events if the griefing becomes out of hand... That'll confuse them
-Hire someone to deal with them.

All I can think of right now

OK, may I, for just a moment, Inject some sanity into this debate...

Now I may be wrong... but the original post was about griefing in general, not about particular incidents.

Since then, any, myself included, have mentioned incidents.

I think this was WRONG!

let's stop getting to the who was griefed more by whom, and stick to the Griefing Is Wrong aspect.

I've been griefed, you've been griefed, Candie's been griefed probably more than all off us together...

IT IS STILL THE GRIEFERS WHO ARE TO BLAME!

To those of you who are unfortunately, mentally challenged to a degree at which you can no longer understand this, I appologise.... Please feel free to seek counseling.

Griefing IS BAD, whether you think it's fun or not.

Considering the day, and I don't want to upset non-christians, but you can't argue that (assuming he said it) Jesus had this one right... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If you are a griefer... expect the wrath of society... and if the Lindens won't punish, then sooner or later, there WILL be lynch mobs out there...

Is Justice Monde also Grimmy Moonflower?

Yes, no, maybe, sometimes?
By her own admission on another thread some months ago she mentioned that at least one other person uses her account. So. Are Grimmy and Justice a couple?

The original post is about what actions, if any, can cause a player to be removed from SL, since there does not seem to be any action too grave that a player does not get a second chance to come back in and repeat the same offense, or brand new ones.

And you are right, this is not about any one incident - it is about a wide variety of them occuring to different people. In my case, it was the threat of physical violence which caused me to question what can get a member banned. Justice was right, in that circumstance, it should ultimately involve the RL authorities, and if it continues it will. However, none of this is about Candie Apple. Please please please return to the topic at hand, which is not the origins of grief or a place to make Candie into a pinata for Easter to take whacks at.

And will there be any great sex scenes?

I'm male, I'm not Grimmy, and Isabella and I have our own separate accounts now. Three separate people.

Of course, you could just ask people who know us, Devlin, instead of wildly jumping to your (per usual) baseless, paranoid conclusions reaped from thin air.

-JMonde

Hey people lighten up - really, it's not GumpyDay.


If someone is upset by your actions - deal with it. Try asking yourself how you handle the same situation in real life, ie. when you upset or hurt someone (yes people get hurt in "it's just a game" SL) are you indifferent?

And if yes, when you're upset and hurt in real life, are you also indifferent?

Many thanks to Twist for perfectly illustrating several points presented previously in this thread, as well as the original one.

But, Justice...it's so much more fun this way.

I think the Lindens pretty much do a great job in most areas. But in this area of handling griefers they are far below par of any other on-line game I have seen. The standard response is to file an abuse report and contact a liason. This obviously does no good, because the majority of the repeat offenders are back in a couple of days. They gave us land banning tools that are pretty much useless unless you own a whole sim. Now they are telling us to handle these issues ourself, but give us no real tools to stop the repeat grifers. I am sorry, but the ONLY thing that will stop these buttheads is permanent banning of their avs, IP addresses, and credit cards. And even THIS can be gotten around. I can only recall seeing two non-minor griefers ever permanently banned. That was EZ Money, and Grimmy Moonflower. They were only banned because of the total uproar that was created in the community. Maybe if we do the same with THESE jerks that come back over and over the Lindens will be embarassed enough to take action.

OK - I've done my best to edit this thread to keep the discussion about griefing and the nature of the support you receive, while eliminating the personal attacks. I may have taken out more than you're comfortable with, or possibly left something in you wish wasn't there. If so, my apologies.

We all know that griefing can be a problem. When someone works really hard on an event it can be incredibly discouraging to have it disrupted by an inconsiderate individual with an out of control particle system or a newly invented weapon. I know it also may feel that we're not responding as quickly as you like. We try to sort out the real attacks from the mistakes, the situations where one person thinks it's griefing and the other was 'just kidding', the genuine attempts to disrupt.

Without violating privacy, we're hamstrung to tell you how we solve these problems. In the immediate chaos of a real attack, we will use tools to freeze individuals to try to sort out what's going on. We'll 'kick' those who seem to need a time out. We'll suspend repeat offenders. And yes, we have banned several people who just don't seem to get that their activities have ceased to be funny. A few keep coming back using various types of subterfuge, and as soon as we figure out who they are, we ban them again.

I'd like to point out, however, that personal attacks will not solve the griefing problem. Blaming an individual for reacting negatively when they've tried hard to bring something special to Second Life and then get disrupted is certainly not a solution. Counter-attacking won't end the griefing.

Let's keep the debate going. We'll continue to work on the tools. We'll look for ways to allow more self-governance. We'll respond as quickly and as effectively as we can. But at the end of the day, yelling at each other here won't end the griefing.

I refer you to Philip's post from last week:

"These personal attacks reduce the quality of the community and experience for everyone. When you make such an attack, please consider very carefully what you want to achieve. I cannot see a positive benefit to SL coming out of this thread. I cannot see how there is education going on here.

We (Linden) cannot explicitly police the spirit of these threads without reducing everyone's collective freedom beyond the limits we are willing to sustain. We believe in tolerance and liberty as fundamental values for SL. What this means to each of you is that you must (if we are to survive) behave altruistically. You must sometimes censor your own words, if they do more harm to the community than they might in the short term give you pleasure."

*whistle*

They're actually starting to step up to the plate and delete posts.

Yay!

Why is there a need in this situation for privacy, Robin? People who commit crimes in RL don't get this kind of privacy. Many communities list the crimes from their local police blotter in the newspaper every day, and INCLUDE the names of the perpatrators. Why should SL be any different? Privacy is not always guarenteed in every situation.

The SL police blotter used to at least gives us the number of individuals permanently banned. At least we could see that SOME progress was being made. Of course, without the names we couldn't be sure that Daniel was just saying that to make is feel better.

I haven't read the whole thread but i've been around long enough to know a few things.

The Lindens do a great job, and always respond to our wishes, sometimes it takes a few months because they are waiting for the next version, sometimes its immediately. They are the only major game in which I have ever had the opportunity to chat with the CEO in game!!! Do you understand that? For those of you that have been blessed with the pleasure of talking to Phillip, I mean think about it, he's the man behind it all and he takes the time to chat with us sometimes.... probably less now than in beta but still.

Yes this is a problem, and they have to find the balance between banning griefers and allowing freedom. Many disputes I see are not greifing but personality conflicts and we have to make sure we can tell the difference.

What I'm trying to get at is, give the Lindens some credit, they've created the most free game imaginable and with that comes more griefers. They are doing the best they can.

In short don't blame the Lindens, but continue to vocalize CONSTRUCTIVELY when someone is really a problem.

JV

Well....hehe....just a comment....the TSO really is there to protect Linden Labs......and that is something that is to be expected for any good minded business to protect themselves. Dont get me wrong, I think that they really have everyones best interest at heart even griefers....and well griefers have rights to. Maybe we should develope some kind of justice system in world.....hehe.....*opens can .... out pop worms*

Been talked about at length - various ways to do this...

If it is, who would be the first to take the Lindens to court for breatch of contract?

Accornding to the TOS we have rights. Are LL keeping their side of the contract?

Just a thought

I agree the Lindens are doing a great job. Except in the area of banning troublesome players. The perception at least is not much is being done. When abuse reports are continually filed and the same folks are still there week after week, then something is wrong. Maybe the Lindens don't want to ban folks. But, they need to start because because the players, their paying customers demand it. Griefers may be paying customers too, but they are (fortunately) in the minority. I think in the long run this issue could affect their bottom line, if SL ends up getting a bad rep.