Question about banning players

Is there absolutely no TOS violation grievous enough to result in a player permanently being removed from SL? I mean permanent, full on IP ban, credit card blocked kind of banning? Real life death threats don't seem to do it, horrific hate speech that would make a Nazi proud, or having enough abuse reports and negative ratings that you deserve your own support email address has no effect either.

Violating the TOS and community standards is a breach of the contract that we have for using this service (and it is a service, not a god given right, even with a Lifetime account), and it seems there should be some violations that must terminate an account, if for no other reason than opening up LL to legal liability. Why does LL seem to turn a blind eye to players who have consistently caused problems across such a wide variety of members? There is one player in particular who has abused so many people in SL that we could hold an event at Stage 4 and not be able to hold everyone.

Their actions result in little more than a slap on the wrist, and since often times they have multiple accounts, temporary bans have no affect anyway - they just grief under another name. It is insulting to the people affected, and makes it seem that abuse reports are so often just rubber stamped and ignored.

Cristiano

The reason is probably because LLabs feels that the person "contributes" in some way to SL, be it holding events, giving money away, helping newbies, scripting, etc.

You don't hear about some bannings probably because the person wasn't high profile enough to garner any notice.

LF

I realise it can be irritating, but to me the reluctance to ban is a good thing.

Having been on a site where a ban was the normal response to criticism I feel that not doing it when many people think it necessary is far better than the alternative.

Also remember that those people pay LL. Unless they're losing customers over the guy, they're probably not going to ban him.

I understand he or she is a paying customer (this is actually about multiple people), however, what is the point of the TOS if ultimately they are not upheld.

Probably because they figure this is an adult game, and as an adult you can easily ignore/avoid the other player. I know that in most games there are steps to take... for example..
1. Place the player on ignore/mute
2. Leave the area
3. Report it under harrasment
If this does not happen, well basically you asked for it, It's just like when women get beat by a man, and comes the opportunity to escape and either they don't leave or they keep going back for more.

Well, actually you cannot always avoid players and leave the area. If events that you regularly goto, and are griefed by the same people week after week, leaving the event let's the griefer's win. That's what they want, for you not to enjoy going to an event that you like to goto. What, we should just sit on our own 512m plot of land?

I've been to a wonderful event over the past 4 weeks which has been griefed by the same people every week at the same time and place. The Lindens LET IT happen because after many abuse reports, they are still ALLOWED BY THE LINDENS to keep throwing firebombs, sound bombs, and disrupt the event. I say the Lindens let it happen because the griefing is done on a set schedule, that is predictable, and is aggrevious. Yet, inaction by the Lindens to their own abuse reports is in effect support for those griefers.

Ignoring the player doesn't always work because if the entire area is flooded with particles and lagged all to hell, it's hard to ignore if you can't see.

Turning off your sound just lessens your gameplay.

Leaving the area keeps you from enjoying your gameplay.

Harassment reports don't work because the people can do it over, and over, and over, and over...

I understand that if someone makes a mistake, gets drunk, and does something bad, they shouldn't be banned.

But repeated griefing to the same people, at the same place, by the same people, at the same weekly event HAS TO BE WORTHY OF A BAN. If that's not, then they should just remove the whole Abuse Report tool because it's just plain nonsense.

Hank the initial post in regards to "hate speech" so to speak, harrasment and griefing ar two different things, and there is a simple solution to make sure you will never have to hear the "hate speech" by this person again... MUTE EM!

Actually it's about TOS Violations and Ban Worthiness. But either way, it's the same thing. The Lindens need to look at their abuse reporting system a little closer, and look at banning those who truly deserve being banned.

Sensual,

Actually that was just an example - Hank is right. The Lindens has consistently allowed events to be griefed by the same players over and over again. Candie Apple's bingo was destroyed for a time by griefers, and I am not sure what event Hank is referring to, but I hope it is not her bingo all over again, as she has been griefed more than anyone. Yes you can mute someone - but when it is not one person we are talking about affected by this and when you start to get into legally dangerous territory, you have to wonder why they are so slow to enforce the rules we are supposed to abide by. They will suspend someone for being naked in a PG sim, but god forbid they do something when more serious things occur, other that a summary slap on the wrist and a stern talking to.

Edit - also, muting a person does not mute their objects - they can still harass you with images, scripts and sounds.

Cristiano

PS - also, Sensual this is not a post about the person you may think I'm posting about, totally different situation.

I don't really want to respond to this thread because I'm the most laid back person in-world so my view may be a little bias.

But perhaps Sensual has a point when she says "you are probably being griefed for a reason". I mean... just think about it for a little bit. There may be something you've done in the past that invited whatever griefing that has been brought upon you.

I'm not the most outspoken person in the world, yet at the same time I've had occasions where my opinions meant something. I thought maybe this could be one such occasion.

Okay, so this isn't an occasion where my opinion means something. Ignore what I said.

How come we never hear from the Lindens when this particular subject is discussed? Why can't you tell us WHY these folks aren't ejected from the game when they have dozens of abuse reports, from multiple sources. I heard it said one specific griefer doesn't get banned because he/whe is the child of a Linden. Are you guys playing favorites? How about some answers, Philip? Colin?

I think the griefers ARE the Lindens. And we are just being experimented on to see how we react to this "crisis."

Seriously tho...I've never had a problem with griefers. I tend to get along with everyone, and if someone is being an idiot I don't give them the satisfaction of responding to or recognizing their idiocy in any way shape or form. Cause...that's exactly what they WANT you to do.

And I see a lot of "interpersonal conflicts" going on here . Which, in my 10 years experience of moderating and managing online communities, is something that people have to work out on their own. The Lindens are moderators. Not guidance counselors or therapists. Any moderator who knows what they're doing will not touch an interpersonal conflict with a 10 foot pole.

Ok I don't know how this has been hijaacked to discuss the merits of the attacks on Candie Apple, but jesus stop it. This is specifically a thread about whether or not there are actions serious enough to actually get a member banned from SL, since LL seems all over the map on enforcement. I used Candie Apple's bingo as an example because it was firebombed repeatedly by a griefer who was new to SL and did not know her at all. It was singled out because it was a popular event that could be disrupted Her reaction to those situations were fueled by not receiving anything close to adequate support in trying to deal with the wholesale abuse of her events. Whatever other reasons she might be griefed for, in the end, the blame lies with the person(s) doing the griefing, not with Candie or anyone else. No player, Candie included, deserves to have it happen to them. Again, however, that is not what this thread is about.

Nol I wasn't saying that everyone deserves to be griefed or harrassed... I was pseaking of only harrasment and making a point that it can be avoided, but alot of people... instead of ignoring and leaving the situation, they stay there and eiither comment on it or provoke, so yes then it is deserved.

The only people I know of personally who have been banned have been a couple of minors. So apparently being under 18 and having the Lindens obtain difinitive proof of that fact can get you banned. I don't think their IP addresses were blocked, though...

I've had stage4 events attacked by griefers. Av contests, trivia, you name it.

I didn't do anything to "invite" it except for holding the event. Never met the people attacking, don't know them, didn't say a word to them.

So are you saying, that I better damn well not have an event that certain types of people might not approve of?

One event that ALWAYS gets bombed is the furry av contest. Would the proper way to avoid that be, to not hold that contest at all?


If I'm hosting my Oldskool Trivia on Stage 4, and a bunch of people with guns show up and start bombing the place - you're saying I'm supposed to leave? And it's my fault if I don't leave and abandon the event?

Gee. Really convenient for those griefers who are, after all, blameless - because I must have been asking for it.

They're only doing their job.


Sure sounds a lot like, "Fall in line, do as everyone else does, and the antagonists won't notice you."

I can tell you what Linden has told me in my many, many conversations with them about griefing. They don't want to get involved. They don't want to police. If they make that commitment, they would need a ton of employees to do it. And they don't want the expense.

So they want us to deal with it ourselves. I can't tell you how many times I've said fine -- then tell me how. Tell me the steps you envision a resident taking so that we as your customers won't be abused. What have you given your customers to ensure we are not abused?

The answers have been all over the board. My favorite was when a very annoyed Linden told me to use my land banning tool. Of course, he was there on my land because there was a bug with the land banning tools and mine didn't work. At all. And I had been reporting it for weeks. And they had been ignoring it. So he was advising me to use a tool that he had just confirmed indeed didn't work. Hilarious.

So they want us to deal with it ourselves. They just don't know how. They thought neg rating and muting would stop griefers. It kills me when an obviously intelligent group of people come up with something like that.

So we're stuck. They don't want to ban because they don't want to get a rep as a company that bans easily. And they don't want to stifle creativity and freedom of expression.

Trying to think here of the explanations I've been given.

Basically when last I got into pressing them for the steps to take when hosting an event and a griefing occurs, it was:
- File an abuse report and wait for it to be resolved
- You may IM a liaison on duty, but it is the liaison's choice whether or not to respond at all. They have no obligation to do anything except tell you to file an abuse report.
- Hit Alt + = to make the particles from fire bombs go away
- Stand there and take it.
- If you're on your own land you can shoot the griefer even if your land is safe
- If the griefer comes back with other accounts, or has their buddies join in, go to step 1


I can also tell you that David Linden once told me to have 2 friends at an event shoot Grimmy to keep him away so the event could continue.

I can tell you that Zee Feaver shot a griefer on my land, which was right next to his land, and got banned for it.

Go figure.

So we're stuck. Stuck bad. And do remember Daniel's post about how they find the griefers witty and entertaining and charming.

I dont' know the answer. I can only tell you that Linden has put their foot down firmly and they are not going to do anything about it.

SecondLife won't be around much longer, then.

Simple as that.

Then, indeed, all of our problems - including LL's, will not be solved, but certainly resolved.

I know that a lot of people loved my OldSkool Trivia when I ran it - and I do want to run it again. And I have to run an event a month to keep my Mentor status.

But I don't want to deal with the griefers. So I really don't want to host any events, anymore.

If SL wants things like events to happen, they can't give the attitude of "shrug, your problem." when twenty guys with guns and bombs basically terminate the event.

Charming, yes.

Good policy for LL, no.

I really cannot fathom how several intelligent people have responded to this thread in the *blame the victim* vein.

It's absolutely mind blowing.

I suppose Poland asked to be invaded by the Nazis.

I suppose the people killed by the DC snipers asked for it.

I suppose the thin kid who does his schoolwork and brings home good grades asked to be beat up at the bus stop simply because he/she didn't care to hang out with a group of RL greifers, and didn't measure up to their level of coolness....

I could cite many examples but it won't convince the *blame the victim* set since they have never had these problems or perhaps have been on the giving end of greif at some point in their lives, and have made up their minds and formed a bias against the victims.

I ignore greifers to the best of my ability, but when they are sliding thru my walls on boxes repetitively, disrupting events time and again (mostly the same handful of ppl), at what point does the dysfunction become that of the greifer and not the victim? Never?
Hell, I won't even use the tools given by LL such as neg rating because it only fuels them. I have used land banning tools to which I was met with scorn by my own friends because they are insulted by it, even while they were on the admit list. I don't even report abuse in game because I have been reminded time and again here in these forums that nothing will be done and I will be perceived by some here and perhaps the Lindens themselves as a whiner. In other words, the system is broken. If I am afraid to use these tools for fear of repercussions such as more greifing, the ire of my own friends, or being percieved as deserving of it all simply because I took offense to the REPETITIVE abuse...

In closing, I have been a part dozens of online games/environments/text based games/bbs's/forums etc., and have never seen this level of abuse tolerated in any of those environments. Not ever. This is over a period of at least 15 years. What strikes me funny is that the BIG developers are simply much less tolerant of abuse. So I guess EA, MS and all the rest are incorrect in responding quickly to ppl who are in world only to lessen the experience of others? Or is it just because they are more financially established? *Shakes head*

I also was once told by a Linden that I'd be banned myself if I took the law into my own hands and used pushguns on griefers outside of Jessie (This was before Rausch)...

So are we to believe the Lindens, or the er... other Lindens?

Nolan summed up pretty well why I started this post. I have been involved with a wide variety of online communities, from simple chat rooms to online games like Everquest, TSO, There, etc.. and everything in between. I have never seen an environment so lax in enforcement of rules, or with such a hands off approach to often times serious issues.

Granted, we all have different definitions of what is a serious offense, but that is the purpose of TOS. Will we all live after being called some racial slur or some other affront? Yes, definitely, though we have reached a level as a society where it is not tolerated. Will we all survive having our events repeatedly griefed? Yes, again, it's only a "game" right. However, the more events that are ruined, the less incentive to hold events. The less available events, the less to attract casual players in SL. It is LL's financial interest to ensure that the players trying to create compelling events can do so without disruption.

However, there is a serious TOS violation that is of particular concern to me, having a public website with my address readily available. On more than one occassion, I have received physical threats involving seeking me out in person. While I am more than capable of defending myself, the element of unknown is terrifying. I know others who have received death threats as well in SL for various things. Think they are a joke? Try making a death threat or a joke about sending someone a bomb in real life and see how fast you end up in jail. I don't want to take a chance that some psycho is going to do a whois on me and show up in Miami with a perceived score to settle and their constitutional right to own a gun, no matter how deranged they are. Think that doesn't ever happen? People have committed suicide over online games, and there have been cases of players being attacked in RL for online actions. That goes so beyond the line of an online environment, but the sad part is it does happen. There are some very mentally disturbed people out there, and some very mentally disturbed people playing SL. Reporting this to LL has resulted in minor slaps on the wrist. If the problem continues, I will take legal steps outside of SL, but it is sad that LL won't enforce their own TOS in the case of a player's safety. You would think there would be some major liability there if they failed to act, but who knows.

If the tools we had for self policing were sufficient, that would be one thing - but they are laughable. The ban tool should be accessible from someone's profile, and we should be able with one check box to ban them from all of our land, instead of the cumbersome dialog that exists now. If a player is banned from land, their speech should not carry onto the land - including shouts. This allows a player to stand outside of the ban area and still affect the event.

The mute option needs to be improved as well. I understand the difficulties involved, but to be effective and to mesh with the hands off approach the Lindens want to take, we need the ability to block a user from not only speaking to us, but interacting with us in any way - including their objects. If a user is banned from a piece of land, their objects should have no effect on the land - they should act as non scripted objected that stop at the border of the land. You should not be able to hear any speech coming from their objects as well - it is very easy to create an object that can keep shouting at a person even after you have been muted. Sound should also be muted - if you have someone muted/banned - your client should not receive sound streams from them.

If Linden Labs wants to take the see no evil hear no evil speak no evil approach, then fine - but let us as a community police ourselves. You cannot have a healthy online society without rules, and without repurcussions for breaking those rules.

Cristiano

PS - Now you are blaming Candie for who buys land after she has put it up for sale? I think you need to blame her for September 11th and Kennedy's assasination too, you seem to want to blame her for every bad thing that has happened.

I was thinking today... it's not a solution, but it may be an answer.

And it may have been tried before and failed.

Now, in Mocha, we have a cood community... I know other sims do too.

So maybe, barring personal quarrels, which do happen, the Simizens can get together in fighting griefers with the tools that LL has given us. That if an event in Sim A is griefed, then the griefer is not just banned from that plot, but from EVERY non-Linden plot in the sim... instantly, and with no recourse but through the Lindens.

Deny the griefers access to 90% of SL and when they complain, the Lindens will be forced to act, one way or another.

And by their actions shall we know their intent.

Sio.

I find it ridiculous the way the word "victim" is being used here.

Chalk this up to limitations of the medium. Take away sight & sound and you're left with interpreting written words, causing people to read things in and out of posts that may or may not be there.

While there is no excuse in the world for griefing, and I believe in serving justice where it needs to be served, I interpreted Catherine's point like this:

"Meanwhile, don't make yourself a target."

I didn't interpret Catherine's point as blaming the victim. I think some people really need to look at what they're implying. Has the term "victim" become so loose that we can just shout it out whenever we think our virtual freedoms have been even slighty mocked?

Give me a break!

Once upon a time there was Grimmy Moonflower. Once upon a time he caused quite the uproar. Once upon a time this community lost its mind completely because Grimmy Moonflower said some things and shot some particles and "pusher" bullets, and wrote a manifesto in support of his actions (purely for entertainment reasons, if you ask me).

This community, collectively, hereby referred to as "The Lynch Mob," came COMPLETELY AND THOROUGHLY UNGLUED and remained so for quite some time.

People who had never even MET Grimmy were shouting at the top of their virtual lungs, screaming for justice in blood.

I saw supposedly "griefed" people behave in ways that made me think perhaps they should take a permanent vacation from virtual reality and douse themselves with some of that good ol' ACTUAL reality. I envisioned a mob with pitchforks and torches dragging a candy store thief up to the gallows with shouts of "Kill him! Kill him!"

It was pathetic. And the hoopla, hullabaloo, and hype is what caused a simple no-no to turn into a virtual STAMPEDE.

In other words, those who were griefed seemed to be practically begging for it. It's like people NEED the drama in order to function - in order to get a bearing on their own righteousness, perhaps?

To reitertate my point: griefers should be prosecuted, you betcha. Meanwhile, if you can avoid being a target (i.e. try to refrain from visibly losing your levity, sanity, and maturity at the slightest provocation) you'll be striding a long way towards a greater strength of character. As a side effect, you won't be as entertaining to bully around, and thus, you'll be chided much less often. It's a guarantee.

In other words, let the rain roll off your feathers. Getting under your skin is THE POINT of griefing you. So maybe folks should consider toughening up that skin.

And that's how I interpret Catherine's point.

Furthermore, if you read my words and think perhaps I could be talking about you, you're probably right. Take the hint.

Sorry, Cristiano. I don't want to hijack your excellent point completely. I agree absolutely that TOS violations should be treated with a a harsher hand. The Lindens don't seem to be doing enough to keep the offenders from offending. We need some examples set, and the blotter used to do a reasonably good job of that. I for one believe in in-game justice and I'm disappointed in the lackadaisical attitude the police seem to have these days.

If the community on the whole really feels we need police, then perhaps the Lindens should tighten up in that regard, or give us the tools to take care of it ourselves.

-JMonde