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Government in SL - General Discussion

Nala Galatea
Pink Dragon Kung-Fu
Join date: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 335
03-31-2005 11:27
Since I'm quite sure that some players have made the leap from actual player to Linden, that kinda leads me to think that SL actually does have a player-run government. It's just a government where you don't know who's ruling you and you don't get to choose who they are.

Maybe having a "player-run" government would be more like an advisory commitee for LL, giving advice from the ground level, instead of them trying to wade through all the forums posts to figure out what's good and what's not from the general user's perspective.

You can't say players would make bad government. Some players are the government right now.

Just a thought.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
03-31-2005 11:37
From: Prokofy Neva
Well, yes, socialism *is* wrong, and that's why you don't promote it, and that's my point of view.
So how do you feel about people living on welfare? No reason. Just asking.

From: someone
Hmm...socialism is buying its own private sim?
No the project is. As I explained before it supports competing ideologies not just Social Democracy. *sigh*

From: someone
It's not every day you can stump Prokofy with a word.
Just pretend it means Socialism (the kind that kills relatives) and reply to it accordingly regardless of whether or not you've been corrected many times in a row.


So how would you describe a sim who's theme and arbitration is handled by a single player? By definition I believe it would be a dictatorship. Odd that you are so keen on rebelling against an imagined socialist specter within a multiparty democracy yet the idea of a dictatorship doesn't catch your interest.

~Ulrika~
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
03-31-2005 11:42
Can I start a National-Southparkist faction? We could just call it NaSi, for short.
Sieg KYLE! :P
FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
03-31-2005 11:43
Toy, thanks for the support! Merwan, hmmm, I'll break out my presidential kneepads...

WHOA! Stopping that thought RIGHT there. :-)

-Flip
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Coos Yellowknife
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 27
03-31-2005 11:45
Thank you Pathfinder for this thread. My take on all of this is: If it aint realy broke now ... Why are we trying to fix it? :cool:
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
03-31-2005 13:10
From: Coos Yellowknife
Thank you Pathfinder for this thread. My take on all of this is: If it aint realy broke now ... Why are we trying to fix it? :cool:
This is exactly why we need a Government Forum. We spend so much time arguing whether one needs an alternative form of government or not that we never actually talk about political science and its application to SL.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Toy LaFollette
I eat paintchips
Join date: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,359
03-31-2005 13:13
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
This is exactly why we need a Government Forum. We spend so much time arguing whether one needs an alternative form of government or not that we never actually talk about political science and its application to SL.

~Ulrika~



Should every thread that runs over say, 500 posts have its own forum?
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
03-31-2005 14:25
From: Eggy Lippmann
Can I start a National-Southparkist faction? We could just call it NaSi, for short.
Sieg KYLE! :P
Ha ha! This was actually quite funny. :D

Mr. Hankey could wear his brown shirt! (Obscure Nazi reference.)

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
04-01-2005 06:47
I'm going to go into "salmon" mode a bit here, and do some swimming upstream and against the tide. I've never been one to duck a head-butt with popular opinion.

Here are my thoughts on "government" in SL. I apologize in advance for its lack of brevity, but these thoughts don't map too well onto a 10-second soundbite for the evening news.

In real world western democracies, there is this fundamental concept that government can only legitimately derive its power with the consent of the governed. "Consent of the governed"... that sounds like a pretty kewl concept to me! But how can we apply this concept to Second Life?

To me, in this digital metaverse, we all have the ability to "opt in" into whatever sort of "Consensual" agreements we want to, and avoid those that don't appeal to us.

Forum veterns may recall that, a while back, I had much fun publicly ridiculing and mocking the N-berg experiment, and scoffing at this government that Ulrika and Kendra were working on because I thought it looked and smelled a bit like a two person "Duocracy" than anything else. I even went so far as to form the "Costume Party" and create my favorite alt, BozoCon Queso, so that he could run for Bergermeister.

Well... I still think that N-berg has government structures that seem to me to be stifling and controlling and that concentrate too much power in the hands of too few.

But guess what... It doesn't matter! I simply chose not to "opt in" with the N-berg social contract between government and governed. I didn't give my consent to be governed. Its as simple as that!

And in the meantime, N-berg continues to grow and flourish (OK... "chug along with some floundering along the way" might be a more appropriate description but I do wish them well), and I continue to be governed by the benevolent dictatorship that we all know and love.... "The Lindens".

But let's suppose more of these government experiments come along with different structures and rules and expectations of both government and governed. With each, any SL resident can either consent or not consent to be governed. With each, its a consensual social contract between all that are involved.

To illustrate, I'll create an extreme example... Instead of the "City of Neaultenberg", suppose that some of us want to create "The Savage Nomad Lands of the Wild Prarie Tribesmen". Maybe this government has some land and creates some governing structure like "The High Council of the Perpetually High", and there are rules about how big your teepee must be and a law that states "All same-sex AV rituals must be performed in the Grand Log Cabin in the Sky".

I don't care... But whatever it is, its a government that has some "land" associated with it, and structures and rules. And everyone in the SL metaverse has the option to be governed or not to be governed. Its as simple as that.

Is it government? Sure it is. It may look like some crazy social club and not like the things that reside in Washington and London and Paris. But its government in SL.

Now... Let's take my example a little further. Suppose that a whole slew of these governments grow and take root in SL. For every government that grows and takes root, there would probably be dozens that just rot in the ground as withered seedlings. But some would work for some folks, and some would work for others.

Furthermore, in this growth we'll suppose "The Savage Nomad Lands" becomes a government that people actually find more attractive to be governed under than to by under the benevolent "Lindens" anymore.

Why not? Its digital social Darwinism at its best!

The Savage Nomad Lands may have zoning that allows people to shape their surroundings in a more community spirited fashion.

The Savage Nomad Lands may have rules for conduct and behavior that people find attractive.

The Savage Nomad Lands may have processes for judicial review that pale in comparison to the arbitrary "Linden" bannings that everyone says fall from the sky for no apparent reason.

The Savage Nomad Lands may be SO attractive that people are clamoring to be governed by them.

So... to segueway to a conclusion.

I think that to arbitrarily dismiss the notion of "government in SL" comes from this idea that somehow government is to be feared as something that will be imposed.

If we think of government as a social contract between government and governed, and one that can ONLY happen with the consent of the governed, then the possibilities are pretty exciting.

My $0.02...

- Ace

P.S. Ulrika... I still carry my Neaultenberg citizenship card proudly in Groups list. I had to work so hard to wrestle it from you, I hesitate to give it back! ;-)

P.P.S. ... and congratulaions on motherhood.
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
04-01-2005 07:15
From: someone
If we think of government as a social contract between government and governed, and one that can ONLY happen with the consent of the governed, then the possibilities are pretty exciting.


Agreed. It is the idea of a player-based government imposed against the will of the governed that folks are railing against.

In the system you describe, there is still the option to remain ungoverned by players and instead be governed only by the Lindens. Sounds good to me.

And really, what is a player-based government except for an overlay on Linden governance? I for one do not see the possibility of the Lindens suddenly deciding to negate the TOS for residents who now fall under the governance of "The Savage Nomad Lands of the Wild Prarie Tribesmen", making The Tribe's rules the only rules those so governed must obey. Any rules The Tribe enacts are in addition to those laid out in the TOS.

-Ghoti
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
04-01-2005 07:26
From: Ace Cassidy
Here are my thoughts on "government" in SL. I apologize in advance for its lack of brevity, but these thoughts don't map too well onto a 10-second soundbite for the evening news.
That is one brilliant post. It is clear, fun to read, and provides genuine insight. Thanks. :D

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
04-01-2005 07:50
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
That is one brilliant post. It is clear, fun to read, and provides genuine insight. Thanks. :D

~Ulrika~


Well fug... Now my ideas are going to suffer under the weight of an "Ulrika Stamp of Approval".

;-)

- Ace
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"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton
Newfie Pendragon
Crusty and proud of it
Join date: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,025
04-01-2005 08:14
I'd love to debate the concept of government in SL, but....I'm still at a loss as to what purpose a government in SL would serve. They dont provide roads, sewer, land, social security, etc - none of those things are needed in SL, and nobody is freezing to death because they dont have a prim-box called 'home'.

In other words....no raison d'etre....no need to care what form of government to have. No gov't is needed at all.


- Newfie
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
04-01-2005 08:27
From: Ace Cassidy
...Furthermore, in this growth we'll suppose "The Savage Nomad Lands" becomes a government that people actually find more attractive to be governed under than to by under the benevolent "Lindens" anymore.

Why not? Its digital social Darwinism at its best!

The Savage Nomad Lands may have zoning that allows people to shape their surroundings in a more community spirited fashion.

The Savage Nomad Lands may have rules for conduct and behavior that people find attractive.

The Savage Nomad Lands may have processes for judicial review that pale in comparison to the arbitrary "Linden" bannings that everyone says fall from the sky for no apparent reason.

The Savage Nomad Lands may be SO attractive that people are clamoring to be governed by them.

So... to segueway to a conclusion.

I think that to arbitrarily dismiss the notion of "government in SL" comes from this idea that somehow government is to be feared as something that will be imposed.

If we think of government as a social contract between government and governed, and one that can ONLY happen with the consent of the governed, then the possibilities are pretty exciting.
If I get to wear a loincloth, don warpaint, boil trespassers in a huge cauldron, chuck spears at random passersby, and speak in popping and clicking sounds only, SIGN ME UP! (And don't forget the medicinal marijuana!)
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Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
No Player Government EVER!
04-01-2005 08:38
JUST SAY NO TO PLAYER GOVERNMENT

Support the current enlightened despot.
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