Government in SL - General Discussion

What people do with their own land, their own tier, and therefore their own money, is entirely their business and none of mine. If they enjoy playing government, then by all means, create projects to do just that, and enjoy.

I opt out, and as long as I am paying for my own SL, no one else (besides the Lindens, of course) will tell me what I can and cannot do with it. I choose to play fashion designer and general cynical-curmudgeon, not Politician or repressed constituent.

And a big Ditto to David's comments. SL government without governmental power is just playing house. SL government with governmental power is a recipe for Abuse.

There is in fact a way for an SL government to exercise power. I addressed this very point in a previous thread but it was locked.

I'm reposting a slightly modified version of it. At the end you'll see our ideas for giving an SL government real power and how it will be formalized.


Governments and Organizations

In order to understand what we're doing, I first have to discuss governments and organizations. From there I'll show you where our project fits in, how it's different, and hopefully answer a lot of unasked questions in the process.

In SL there already is a formal government. It's a corporatist oligarchy (government by the few whose members are selected and ordered in a corporate fashion). From the definition of a government it, of course, has the power to make and enforce laws in our territory (SL). The laws are described in a legal document (ToS) and enforced by controlling access to property (temporary and permanent banning). (Note that LL is not a dictatorship as we often hear in the forums. A dictatorship is a type of autocracy, which is government by a single person.)

Within this government citizens form organizations to achieve goals that an individual cannot and the Lindens will not. These organizations usually become members of the SL two-tier group system yet take many forms, such as corporations (authoritarian hierarchies), cooperatives (a group of equals), councils (a small group of elites), mobs, and so on. The purpose of these organizations can be to make money (corporations), explore shared interests (skydivers), supplement the existing LL government (themed builds), and so on.

As you can see, complexity already exists in SL. What makes us different is that we are trying to implement this complexity in a different place. Instead of supplementing the existing LL government as an organization (themed build), we want to replace it with a better government that we can take part in (democracy). In order to do this, we have to become a true government, an entity that has the power to make and enforce laws in our territory. How do we do it? The same way LL does -- by controlling access to property. This is the difference between playing a government and being a government.

Evolution of Neualtenburg

As an aside, it's interesting to note that the project has evolved considerably. It started as an organization with many different forms:

1. Organization -- two project leads: Kendra Bancroft and Ulrika Zugzwang.
   
2. Organization -- A provisional trial government: Talen Morgan, Pendari Lorentz, Kendra, and Ulrika.
   
3. Quasigovernment -- A government with a constitution and three ruling bodies but without land-bound citizens. (This is what we have now.)
   
4. Government -- A true government with land-owning citizens (Phase II).

Within 4 to 6 weeks we will begin the second phase of our governmental project. We will move to a private sim and sell land deeds with covenants. The covenants (legal agreements attached to deeds) will be used to define citizenship and bind users to the land. Between the covenants and laws passed by the government, we will implement a government in the same fashion that LL does but will be controlled by us. It will be a real virtual government.

If you're interested in Phase II of the project, stay tuned (or send me an email).

~Ulrika~

Pathfinder. I will forgive you for posting this thread. But, only because you are new. Please, don't let it happen again.

OMG a thread on government started by a Linden. Will that ensure that it won't be closed by a Linden. Help, save us! Uri, Walker, get down here quick, May Day!

Pathfinder, it's unfortunate you had to trot out Newoldenberg -- that ever new but ever old human propensity for socialist utopianism -- and give it a special Linden pat on the back again, implying that we all had "old" information about Newoldenberg and maybe we might just be misinformed about it in our judgements We don't need old or new information to understand that socialism, even in its soi-disante social-democracy form, is a great evil that has harmed many a person and a plant and been responsible for as much human misery as it has possibly alleviated -- and this is dubious.

It's really unfair for Lindens to give an extra special luv sqeeze teddy hugz to socialism, Pathfinder. I don't know anything about your RL experience and your game company culture out there in California where I realize there are a lot of utopian hippie communes and Berserkeley and stuff. But...please be aware that there are *different kinds* of governing systems. The Lindens sponsored the social democracy toy by waving the up-front-purchase that people like me had to pay for our governance toys on our sims, called "regular virtual life" LOL. Was it any accident, comrade, that social democracy toys started with...the socialism of shielding people from the purchase price? Please, spare me the baloney about the contest where only one person applied. Sheesh, run the contest again when that kind of thing happens and explain it better, don't assume the population are sheep.

And...the Lindens sponsor a kind of odd state capitalism oligarchy on their land auction, but that has enough correctives (or so I believe) that it isn't hopeless...but please, do not pick out one social system and celebrate it at the expense of others.

Socialism might seem like the groovay thing to have for any tekki wiki type of culture on the Internet, but trust me, it contains the same executions at dawn, the same censorship, the same destruction of the land and the human heart as the RL socialism, so just don't "go there". And all this dreck we'll going to have to endure now in this thread from your newly-empowered socialists in the game who just got that thunderous back-pat from a Linden for their monstrous social system, will take many many months to undo.

Capitalism works for you as a game company, my friend. Could you be just a little bit more celebratory of it for your customers who play this game? Allergy to commerce, hatred of land barons, snarling suspicion of real estate dealors, adverse reactions to selling even objects that took labor, subsidies of money each week in the box, educational grants -- all these trappings of socialism riddle the game like rivulets of fat and really, need to be wound down and phased out if it is to live. And it can't live, if you pet and pat game socialists.

No group of government toy-players should have ever gotten the purchase price removed from their experience, because to make a government, people have to take the game as it is, buy the stuff in it -- land and tier -- and make a world. They should not get fetings and subsidies in this arduous process. And content kings who make sales for the game, and who make entertainment or content for the masses, should also not be subsidized and feted in this world because when they are, they create something modeled on more like the fasicstic corporatist state or the socialist state rather than on the liberal democratic state.

I don't want a player government, Pathfinder. I want little tiny easy-to-make tools for doing really, really simple things like a) forming a group and b) sharing land and c) pooling tier. I don't need to read Lenin or Gramsci to count prims with people from half way around the world. I don't have to revisit the Federalist Papers just to make sure we all agree that laggy scripts are not going to be tolerated on our server so that all turntables and bouncer scripts are banned. Etc.

It doesn't take a government to have governance.

My intuition tells me Pathfinder both knows exactly what he's doing here with these two threads and he's not new to SL at all.

I'm sure that Devlin didn't mean to offend you, Pathf.....I mean Merwan.

Oh no! The box of letter blocks got knocked over again.

I don't even bother to read this stuff anymore. Even if I agree with Prokofy on some issues (not this one to be sure), it's all juice and no seed. I imagine that eventually most other people will just stop reading these bellicose diatribes as well. Hopefully sooner than later.

Hello Prokofy! I knew it was only a matter of time before the voluminous anti-Socialist ramblings started. I wonder if Pathfinder will have the same reaction to your kooky affectations that we all do. (You know we love you.)

The city is not a social democracy. In no way is it codified in the constitution or any law. Instead it is a three-branch government with a representative democracy, a selective meritocracy, and a productive ergatocracy. Within the first representative branch there does exist the Social Democratic Faction (SDF) but that is one among several competing parties. I just wanted to let you know that your main thesis is mistaken. (Which makes the rest of the reply so much simpler.)

You'll also be thrilled to note that we are purchasing our own sim, so you can stop beating the poor Lindens up about sponsoring competitions which lease land for limited periods of time. It's a fine thing to do for motivated players and to add variety to the game.

Correct! This is covered in my last post, where I discuss the difference between an organization and a government.

~Ulrika~

Every time this subject comes up, everyone drags out their high school textbooks and tries to sound like a political genius. The truth is that it's all so simple that there's not even any sense in fussing about it.

We all pay real money to have an avatar in a video game. This is a diversion during down time, not a real-life country with lives on the line.

Personally, I don't see much difference between these pro-government groupies and... oh, somebody who builds airplanes in SL. If building airplanes in SL gets you off, then rock on, man. If making up a virtual government gets you off, and you can find people who are willing to participate, then you rock on as well.

I would love to travel through a Second Life city where the residents all build along a common theme, especially if it wasn't just a mirror of real life. Jetsons towns, or underwater complexes, or whatever.

What most of us worry about is that such a place will overgrow our little 512 plot, and that we'll get visits from super-powered residents who tell us to take our starter cabins down or demand protection money in the form of "taxes."

Legitimate problem here, Gydeon. Some people don't want w-hats, cube of death, and lag-tards right next to their project in SL.

Because SL uses a lot of real life metaphores (such as "land", it makes sense to talk about rules in SL using RL terminology. Saves a lot of time.

How else would you have us frame the discussion?

Artificial government obviously isn't your bag, and I don't think you are alone in that. Lots of people are quite happy with everything the way it is. Any "solution" to the "problem" of "not having a government" must be targeted to only those people who actually want some kind of "government". Do you object to something like that FOR THEM?

Buster

I see all this sudden rebirth of government threads as simply a ploy to gain more support for N'Burg since they are buying a island and must recruit people to pay the tier

I'll echo my wife's sentiment - Do in your second life as you wish, and I shall do as I wish -- And ne'er the twain shall meet.

If folks wanna band together and make their lil government, rules, laws, and all that jazz - cool.. have at it! That's what this is all supposed to be about isn't it? Doing your own thing and enjoying yourself?

Of course the joy of Second Life is that if they show up on my doorstep in a black tie and white shirt, a bicycle, and a copy of their newly penned opinions, I can meet them with a shotgun

Siggy.

Well I dont think there was any patting of any backs here. Sounds more like they probably wanted to get more input on the discussion and in a more convenient place to read.

Also your thought that for some reason this will hafto be "undone" suggests that your thinking that "Socialism" is wrong, and should not be allowd.
And that anyone supporting it is wrong...... That sounds wrong
Your land do what you want correct?

No Buster, I don't have a problem with folks getting together and making some sort of government. I just don't see them as being different from builders or skinners or scripters. The social and political aspects of self-governing get them off, so that's what they're doing. So long as they don't have special powers, it really doesn't hurt me any more than living near some guy who makes airplanes. Hell, if I like what they're doing I may even join up, provided that I can leave if I'm unhappy there.

But I don't typically read about cubes of death or w-hats... mostly I read a bunch of political philosophy or personal shots, and they get off-task rather quickly. If someone wants to sell me on some sort of government, I need concrete answers about the benefits, not vague discussions of philosophy and history. "Yes, thanks for telling me all about ancient Egypt. Now how do you plan to get this eyesore away from my parcel?"

Anyway, it all comes down to this. Player government shouldn't bother anyone if it's voluntary. Post after post, thread after thread it keeps coming back to that.

I will say, however, that this thread has been much more civil than the ones I've seen in the past. It's kind of nice.

Usual reply......if people want to PLAY "governments"....fine......role play away. But I play for fun and to ESCAPE "real life". I'll happily carry on without one thank you. I certainly don't want any other player telling me what i can and can't do. As has been suggested time and time again.....surely we could set aside a sim for those wanting to experiment. Just don't impose on others. As always.......refer to my sig. Vixen out.

Yup.

Government in SL is a great idea!
























...as long as *I'M* in charge.

Oh god, I know I've been gone awhile, but; are we still on the Government issue? Ok since we are.....BLAKE ROCKWELL FOR PRESIDENT! Read my lips..Free Sexy Bodies for all!

yay, Flip. ya got my vote

I'm sure Unhygienix he meant no offense!



It was nice seeing you inWorld last night Pathfinder.

So Flip what you gonna do to earn our votes?

Well, yes, socialism *is* wrong, and that's why you don't promote it, and that's my point of view, but whatever, that would be an off-topic thread boring to most people, and I find it is generally the most boring to people who either don't have relatives who were killed under socialism or who have no sympathy for people whose relatives were killed under socialism, so there you have it.

Ulrika? Huh? A social democracy *faction* has taken over the representative government? Blecth. That's the problem with those social democracy factions, who take over using their censorship, exeuctions at dawn, etc. That's why we don't like them, and why game companies shouldn't coddle them. Who knows, back when you were first getting your toy, and I had enough time to play government, I would have formed a faction and joined that sim and fought to the death with my comrades and today it wouldn't be possible for you to speak of that takeover. But, I'd rather play store, than play government, it is just more fun for me.

Hmm...socialism is buying its own private sim? Well, I guess that's a good solution for socialism, first of all, for it to understand the real cost of things, but now I see what may be is coming is a redistribution of that cost on to the backs of others in some fashion, but whatever, SL is surely big enough for some to play store without socialism, and some to play government without stores or whatever (except the kind with cans of tushyonka in the window, i.e. free newbie houses piling up everywhere on every sim lol).

a productive ergatocracy

It's not every day you can stump Prokofy with a word. I'm thinking "erg" is like "ergonomic" or whatever that word is that means the keyboard fits your hand.
I'm afraid that when I find out what "egatocracy" means (and I am shuddering in advance), I'm almost certain that I will definitely not want it to be "productive".

Ok, I had to reply to this.

Governments among certain groups or areas that all like the idea... cool.

SLGW = Second Life Governemnt of the World... ROFLMFAO!!!!

Now that's good reading

I'm a minarchist: some governance is necessary, but less is generally better. (The only significant government function we currently lack, IMO, is enforcement of contracts.)

I've no problem with people experimenting with different models, so long as one rule is observed:

The only mandatory governance is Linden enforcement of the Terms of Service and Community Standards. All other (resident-run) government shall be opt-in only.

Amen.

-Ghoti