Barkley says players should "beat the hell out of fans.."

Good man Nolan,

So you see where I'm coming from. No this shit ain't right. And for Artest's further denial of wrongdoing, it will haunt him for sure. I'm kinda old school. Do wrong, be a man, admit it, deal with the reprise, and move on hopefully the wiser, for even bad has its good, the exsperiance you would not have had otherwise.
An yeah old school, my dad or mom for that matter would've beat the living jonnypoop outta me, wanna throw shit on someone. Hell my dad woulda sent me back outside to get that ass whoopin had I done that.

This to me is just as much the issue as the response. Ya know people wanna say it's just beer, didn't hurt. Let's see them bang out 4 qrts on the floor, try to get to somewhere you can finally relax from your hard days work and have some clown throw a beer on you "in front of millions of people"!!! Nah that don't hurt... A grown black man still being treated like less than a nice peace of property, regardless of how much he makes. Pride can be a mofo!!!!

Ain't takin it personal brother-at-arms!!!!! I'm assuming your older and wiser now from your experiences, as am I. So I'm just adding some objectivity here, God knows, throw beer on me when I'm 19, straight outta Parris Island and call a cab, your gonna need immediate medical assistance ASAP!!!! Throw beer on me now, 32, computer geek, and be prepared to file stalking charges, I've just found FREE BEER!!!!!!!

People apperently don't feel like reading an entire post by a testosterone charged individual.


Tried reading both of your posts now and can't quite grasp either of them. I am still a bit confused in regards to your stance on the issue.

You talk about this thing respect but in this situation I really don't see that anyone acted in a respectable manner. Explain in a more consise manner exactly what your point is. Are you saying that it is ok because they are basketball players and "we" should expect it or are you saying that when disrespected anyone would be expected to act as such? I find it hard to follow your train of thought.

To say that we are all just sitting on our pc's without ever being confronted with this same set of circumstances is being very narrow minded. If disrespect is a reason to attack, I have encountered numerous situations to beat others senseless in bars and on the streets but rational thinking took over my brain. For some reason I decided not to beat the fecal matter out of everyone who "disrespected" me. I hope I am not a minority.

And just to put things in perspective that grown black man makes millions. I doubt very seriously that when one makes millions of dollars from putting a ball in a whole there is room to feel objectified regardless of skin tone.

This is really a silly point to me - nothing personal Ishtar.

If fans and players behave like sportsmen, thenthere is absolutley no reason that the court should not be "accessible". The reason that the football and baseball stadiums include fences and decks separating fans from the field has to do as much with getting them up to a reasonable vantage point where they can see the entire playing field (LSU's football field, for instance, has a 1.5 foot crown from grass edge to grass edge at the 50 yardline) as it does with fan/player safety. Imagine a fullback ploying into a crowd followed by three linebackers and a cornerback all sprinting headlong after him.... that's a recipe for disaster.

Sorry. You missed on this point.

OK Ish



I don't recall anything about "because thier basket ball players..." They are human beings with the same rights and faults as the rest of us.

Can we agree on that?

Sure these people are in the public spot light so everything they do is micro examined and because of such we hold them to a higher standard of conduct then the rest of us.

Can we agree on that?



Can you understand this statement? ^


Or do you mean to tell me you honestly believe we are all the same and act the same regardless of cultural, socialogical differences or even the econmic situation one is raised in?




Do you understand this statement? ^

Now I've said this numerous times. Do you still not understand the basic principles of respecting another human being? Do unto others and what not. We would not be having this conversation if THE GUY DIDN'T THROW THE BEER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

But because Artest reacted in a totally unproffesional manner in responding to this action, here we are.

Now are you still tellin me that you can't see the difference an action like, throwing beer, will provoke from different individuals?

Try this. Go to work and throw a beer on a coworker....
Then throw a beer on your boss...
Then go throw a beer on Mike Tyson...

Now you've successfully disrespected all three and you believe you'll get the same reaction from each one?!!
Let me know how it goes, before you get to Mike. Not sure we'd get a chance to chat afterwards.

If players are sportsmen then they will not attack fans. If fans are sportsmen then they will not throw beer on players. This is no real insight. But it has not proven sound logic. This is not the first incident of the sort and it will not be the last .

I did not bring up the vantage point issue, which is valid. I really don't care for courtside seats at basketball games either as I prefer to see the entire court. Yet, in your own argument you stated that part of the reason for the seperation of fans from the feild in other sports was to protect the fans. How is this not relevant in basketball?

Imagine a fullback ploying into a crowd followed by three linebackers and a cornerback all sprinting headlong after him.... that's a recipe for disaster.

Imagine a fan being close enough to a basketball player to be able to throw beer on him and then get his ass kicked...that's a recipe for disaster. (or you can watch the footage)

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. Beer-thrower gets a stiff misdemeanor charge, basketball player gets a felony assault charge. Both were idiots. The end, no?

I've seen the tape many times, and I have just one question. Did this guy even think he had a chance against Artest? When Artest came after him, he didn't run. He yelled something, then got his ass kicked. Was he that drunk?

Like many posters in this thread, I don't condone big professional athletes beating down weasly little drunk fans. Then again, if you throw beer at a guy twice your size and he comes after you, have enough sense to run like hell.

All you people making all these assumptions about pro atheletes are a bunch of idiots. Nolan, 40% of NBA players have a criminal history? Where the hell did you pull that out? And Artest not taking responsibility? That's a bunch of bullshit.

Here's my take. As a professional athletes, they have the responsibility to remain calm. This is even when being heckled, called 'nigger', and a whole lot of other tasteless shit. There is no excuse for going in the stands. They should have known better. No matter what, they are suppose to be professionals. A lot of children watch and emulate these players so they have the responsibility to be role models. I think the penalties given to all the players is just. Artest got the longest suspension ever in NBA history. Commissioner Stern had to be harsh and make an example and that's exactly what he did.


Ron Artest has mental problems. He's a bright, caring, family man who's working on finishing his degree in Math. He gives a lot back to the community and has never had a criminal record... But it's obvious he has anger problems. He once went to anger management at 8 for choking a kid and has been dealing with his anger all of his life. He even tried to stay calm after getting shoved in the face after a very heated game. The beer that was thrown just set him off. He snapped.
As for Stephen Jackson, I felt he initially went into the stands to protect Artest. Because that's just what teammates do. It's a family situation and you have to cover their backs. That's just how teammates are. Once Stephen Jackson saw the one dude throw a drink at Artest's face (not the person who initially threw the beer.. after Artest held down the little dude to ask if he threw the beer), he also snapped. Then it just became really really ugly.


Fan are idiots. Some drunk fucks think they can do whatever they want. Thinking that pro athletes aren't really human but prize horses and feel they can taunt, ridicule, spew racial slurs, throw shit, etc. To be perfectly honest, I was happy to see the players land good shots at those fans. They deserved it. Still though, there is no excuse for going into the stands.

Well, one exception. The last time this type of incident happened, the one who was involved was Vernon Maxwell. In that incident, a fan yelled to him "I'm glad your daughter is dead!"
..
....
WTF? I don't care what you think, but if I had a daughter who recently died and some drunk fan said that to me, I would not hesitate to give him a piece of my mind.


What can we learn about this?
Don't snap. Walk away and count to 10.
Don't be an idiot.

Well, I guess then CNN is slandering NBA players when they stated that. That is where I heard it. With all due respect Chef, I dont just make shit up. If CNN is wrong then I will apologize for posting the story but will not take responsibilty for the info.

This is a click thru link from CNN's site:

http://www.sportsbusinessnews.com/index.asp?story_id=36703

Here is another, followed by an excerpt from another site:

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/chroniclesofriddick/76.html

"A first-of-its-kind investigation into the criminal histories of current NBA players reveals that 40 percent of the athletes have had a formal criminal complaint filed against them for a serious crime.

To arrive at this percentage, I began by using the 2002-03 edition of the official NBA Register, which lists the names, birth dates, and places of residence for over 450 players who played during the 2001-02 season. Next I eliminated all foreign players (those who were born overseas and did not attend college in the United States). This left 417 players. Each of the 417 players' names and birth dates were sent to police departments and sheriff's offices in jurisdictions that the players have resided in, along with a written request seeking any arrest-history information on the players. So, for example, the complete player roster of the Portland Trail Blazers was sent to the Portland Police Department, along with a written request that each player be run through the department's computer system for arrest records. This procedure was followed in every city that hosts an NBA team. Similarly, the campus police departments at the universities and colleges attended by current NBA players were queried. For example, the names of current NBA players who attended the University of Michigan were sent to Michigan's campus police department for a records check. In all, arrest-history records were solicited from ninety-four police departments, including campus police departments.

Similar letters of solicitation were mailed or faxed to records clerks at forty state and federal courthouses, seeking information on whether NBA players had any criminal cases on file. Sixteen additional courts were queried by telephone.

Finally, twelve district attorneys' offices were queried in writing. Since prosecutors' records are not generally subject to Freedom of Information laws, this process required special permission from prosecutors to make on-site visits in order to view records, which included arrest-history information and conviction data for players."

As far as Artest not taking responsibilty, I watched him in an interview on MSNBC today. He dodged most of the questions and blamed the media and the fans. Were the fans responsible? Hell yeah. But he is too. He sat there grinning with a t-shirt and hat displaying his record company's logo while holding copy of his CD. Everytime the questioning became direct he held up the CD and plugged it. That is not taking responsibilty. As a matter of fact i saw it as sort of an *in your face, look what I am doing now, what I wanted to do when I asked for time off*. I respectfully disagree with you. He has also been in hot water several times before. He isn't learning, and/or is not getting the help he needs.

From MSNBC:

"This was the seventh time in the past two years that Artest has been fined or suspended by the NBA. Earlier this month, he was held out of two games by Pacers coach Rick Carlisle after he asked for time off because he was tired from working on the CD."

Thanks for calling me an idiot.

I still call bullshit. Sure charges may be filed. Have they ever gone through? Pro athletes are targets all the time. Look now. Some fans are suing already trying to get money off of them.

I don't quite understand what the last quote is about. Have you ever seen Ron Artest play? The reason why he is a star is because he is agressive and hard working. There aren't many players who can be defensive player of the year and able to score. He plays hard nosed basketball and plays with intensity.
The whole deal about the taking 2 days off was because he was injured and had personal problems at home. He wasn't suspended. Everyone in the organization supported him and felt he needed a little time off. It was not about promoting his CD.

Here are some of the quotes concerning the situation:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1929822

"Things happen and you move on," he said. "Nobody benefited from this situation."

"It wasn't good at all, for anybody. ... This is the third time that I've been hit with something out of the crowd," said Artest, who claimed he had been struck previously in Detroit and in Cleveland.

"It really hurt me to see the children crying on TV and I think about how it could have been my own kids," his statement said.

"I hope that if that would happen to any other players in the NBA that they won't react how I reacted," he said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1929385

Ron Artest's father: "He's sorry for what happened. It was a reaction. He wishes he could reverse it. He tried to compose himself, and it didn't work out."

"Maybe it's because of the neighborhood," Ron Sr. says. "Some people have [a temper], and some people don't. He's never hurt anybody, never killed anybody. It's just part of him. He doesn't have a criminal or thug bone in his body."


As for promoting the CD AFTER the incident, I agree that's pretty stupid. I still think he has mental problems but there's no way he's a criminal. I agree he needs help.

edit:

Oh as for the article about the Portland players, 3 Portland players got a misdeamor I think. Why? They were caught smoking weed in the back of a car. Dangerous bunch there.

I dunno, they are acquitted at a higer rate than the average joe. That tells me something.


Yes, I have seen him play and I do agree he is hard working, but that's hardly an excuse for repeated bad behavior. There seems to be a big discrepancy here about the reason for the suspension or the fact that he was suspended at all... as Carlisle states it differently.


Yeah I am sure he would like to put this behind him ASAP.

Notice the careful use of the word *claimed*. Players in other sports have shit thrown at them too, quite often, do they beat the shit out of the idiots that did it?

I dunno, sounds like damage control to me, btw, he stated on MSNBC TV today that his kids were watching.
That is nice, and I mean that sincerely.

ESPN has a vested interest in healing black eyes for the the NBA and other sports. They depend on said sports for their livelyhood.

Tried to compose himself? Hah! And what father wouldn't defend his son. I wouldn't expect any other reaction, would you? This is at the very best hearsay and thru his dad none the less.
Never hurt anyone? I think we all know the truth about that.


Yes, it was a juvenile *in your face* move. These guys are driven by materialism WAY too much, and tend to overreact at the first sign of any *disrespect*.

edit:
I agree, Weed should be legal in my mind.

All that said, I like you, though I don't know you that well, and don't want to get into a pissing match about opinions that niether of us are likely to change.

As for the Ron Sr quote, I think he was refering to Ron Jr trying to calm himself down after Ben Wallace pushed him in the face. Artest didn't confront him. He was laying down on the scorer's table probably trying to calm himself down. It didn't work.

I agree with most of your points. I don't feel this is a pissing match. I just feel weary when information that is not totally correct is put out which then causes more assumptions that arise afterwards. Like assuming that pro athletes are criminals. I just believe anyone in the spotlight will be a target and not just athletes. I mean, why the hell is there a show called 'Celebrity Justice' where they continually feed us news about mostly actors in controversy?

Sorry for calling you an idiot.

I agree with you and I am not saying that all pro atheletes are criminals. It just seems that the proportion is higher in B-Ball.

I saw him on the table too, and the fact that he was able to do that after being violently shoved about the throat makes me wonder why, when hit with a beer, he decided to start punching the idiot who did it when he could restrain himself from doing so after that violent outburst from Wallace. In my mind what wallace did was clearly more injurious. Maybe he was just fed up and frustrated, I can grant him that, I have been in similiar situations and not always done the right thing.

This is what I think happened. Throughout the game, it was very heated. It was a very physical game between conference rivals. Artest makes a hard foul with less than a minute to go. The Pacers were already ahead by a lot which doesn't seem necessary since the game is basically over. I think Artest would have given that foul regardless, because that's just how he plays. Wallace shoves Artest hard in the face, approaches him like he's about to duke it out. Artest does nothing. He lays down on the scorer's table trying to calm himself down. The focus is squarely on the floor when off of a sudden, while lying down in a vulnerable position, he gets struck by a beer.

So it seems to me this is like if you're in a heated argument with someone and about to go to blows when all of a sudden some stupid kid flicks your ear when you're not looking. You're already heated up and some little jerk is laughing at you.

So Artest blows up. He didn't punch anybody until he was punched. He didn't know who threw it, but looking at that direction he saw a little jerk pointing and laughing at him. So he rushed him and held him (he did not punch the kid) and asked him 'Did you do it?!'
Then the dude in the white cap who actually threw the cup was holding him from behind and threw some cheap shots at his face. THEN, Artest turned around and punched the guy. At this point, I believe he was scared shitless feeling that there were a lot of fans about to mob his ass. So he makes his way to the court to get away. Then those 2 chubby dudes get in his face. So he lets loose on that guy since he's scared shitless since there's basically a riot going on.

This is what I think happened.

For a while now sports has become less and less of athletic competitions in good spirit, and more of media-driven hype.
Teams and stadiums bow to promoters in the search of more money. Professional sports leagues advertise the hell out of their merchandise.
Players stoop to promoting shoes, cereal, credit cards, tampons, whatever the hell will fill their pockets.
Players demand more and more money, as entertainers, and play each others' salaries against one another.
Ticket prices have gotten to where the average joe can't go see a game frequently unless he is rich.
Throngs of fans get so wrapped up in the team that they refer to the team as "us" - "Hey, did you see how we won last night", etc.
Virtual leagues form where people pretend to build fantasy teams. People play video game sports instead of real sports. People drink beer and tailgate instead of playing real sports.
Having heated arguments about sports becomes acceptable.
Drinking crappy beer and sports become synonymous with one another. Now you have drunk people having heated arguments being condoned.
Doctors develop performance enhancing drugs that cannot be detected with drug tests. In a revealing Sports Illustrated article in the mid-90s, an overwhelming majority of players surveyed anonymously said that they would take performance enhancing drugs if they knew they would not be caught.
Through a deadly cycle of cosumerism and advertisements, sports is reduced to a bunch of overpaid whiney spoiled steroid-injected thugs who are told by everyone around them that they are great, think they are above the law (in fact, 40% of the NBA players have criminal records), and their fans at the games are drunk and obnoxious. When the two sides meet, and tensions are high, something called "civility" is lost.

I am happy to hear that the local District Attorney will be pressing charges on both players and fans, and that the NBA has already provided punishment to the people they are responsible for.

I agree on a lot of those points.
Sports is entertainment and we all know how cutthroat the entertainment industry can be.
That said, you can't deny the extraordinary abilities athletes can do and people will pay money to witness such feats. I agree sports isn't much about the good spirit of competing these days. It's all about winning.
I'll admit, I'm one of the fantasy sports playing, sports video game playing fools. I like the game. The game is fun. I don't play as much basketball or softball much ever since I tore my ankle up from a failed crossover.. so I'll continue playing in other ways.
I still like the game when it's played right though. I refuse to play some people online in NBA Live 2005 just because of the way they play (using cheap tactics from flaws of the game which ends up being garbageball instead of real basketball). I could do the same thing by using only Tracy McGrady and scoring 70 pts, but I don't play to win cheap to rake up my online record. I don't care about winning or losing. I just want to play a good game played the right way.
Even with all the troubles that have come with sports along the years, there are still people out there who play the game right with the right mentality. For instance, Tim Duncan. He gave up a huge chunk of his salary so the Spurs organization can re-sign keys players to keep the nucleus together. Those who re-signed, took a lot less than their market value. Now that's the kind of acts I pay attention to.
Or Lebron James who didn't bitch when he was benched during the Olympics saying he wasn't a veteran player so he didn't expect to play. Then he used what he learned during the Summer and his game has been better and better. Always unselfish by passing the ball even though he has the ability to take over anytime he wants.
I pay attention to players who work harder after getting a big contract. Not like some who only plays well when his contract is about to run it's course in hopes to land a bigger contract over the Summer.
The thing about athletes, a lot of them grew up in very volatile environments. They are not only human, but were at an obvious disadvantage than the average person in this country. To watch them try to be an example for everyone to look up to is a difficult feat in itself. Growing up from the streets and thrust into the spotlight to become a role model at an early age is hard for anyone to handle.
If one pulls it off with hard work and class, they are heroes in my mind.

Yeah, that's even more pathetic.
I remember playing Jedi Knight 2 online - expected cool duals and deathmatch battles, and instead found people who perfected 1-hit-kill moves that were exploits considering the moves were designed for the 1-player game.

Yeah.

I also heard another good thought - basketball is typically full of even less mature players, because it has the lowest mean / median age of any major pro sport. People get signed out of high school, then having millions of dollars thrown at them.

*standing ovation for Chef and Hiro*

Thank you gentlemen for bringing an objective view to this thread.

I better say this again, in case anyone doesn't understand, "I, in no way, condone this type of behavior, yes repulsive and unexcusable, from both side!!!"

Now that I've reiterated this for the ump-teenth time, Thank You sincerly for enlightening us all on some extremely important background information.

Oh, with such ease, do we condemn and pass judgement!!!

Yes our capitalist society is successfully breeding "sportsmanship" right out of our beloved games. Not only B-ball but I've watch the decline in sportmanship, feld to money, in most sports. Where's my football team??!?!? As a child I knew every player on the Dallas Cowboys, every year!!!!! Besides Parcells, who the hells on "my" squad. I blame free agency. For the love of money these extremely gifted talents will put it all on hold waiting for thier "franchise" salery. Hmmm, just can't imagine Walter Payton in another suit of armor!!! It would be like seeing Dennis in a weddin... wait a minute, bad example. Get the jist?!

And finally someone trying to intillectually analize the events and psychology that lead to this incident.

Some people, not a flame, but I can't imagine where you live that people get beer and shit thrown on them and they do nothing. Please tell me so I can come visit, sounds wonderful!!! Back to reality, as mentioned Artest was already unuasaully distressed from the beginning. And as we've all seen by now, when he first confronted the guy he, physically mind you, ask" did you throw it?". Wrong shouldn't be in the stands, now assmunch yells at him and other fans jump in.

I'mma a badass too (in my own mind )
but surrounded by drunk ass holes who have already disregarded the fact that I am a human, humiliate me, after I've worked my ass of in a losing venture, got struck in the neck, I'm supposed to do what?!?!?!? At this point it has escallated to the point the man is in a situation, that by all means, could have lead to serious injury, even death.

For some here the issue is to disregard the cirumstancial events preceeding the "fight" and just want to say "shame on you, you horrible multi-million dollar earning, criminallistic thug!"
"Because you've worked so hard to change your destiny from your poverty stricken beginnings and succeeded, you are now "our" property, we pay your salary so we can watch and marvel at your extraordinary athletic feats, that most of us can't even dream of emulating, and when we throw beer at you and call you degrading names and antagonize you to no end, you are no longer allowed to react in a outside of what "we" deem reasonable. Your a millionaire!!! Your no longer human, what the hell do you mean your upset?!!! Have a beer, here's a couple names to go with it, oh yeah pride, gimme that, nice fuckin poi!!! Drink up young man!!!

Again, does not excuse the actions taken, but man where were this guys parents when they handed out morals and scruples? We can all jump on the athletes, cause they make millions, but the few dumbass fans that mess it up will be forgotten. The athletes reputation and economic recourse will remain for some time to come.

Bottom line, "don't feed the animals", unless of course you really desire to haveth thy ass whoopethed.

Your momma shoulda taught you that!!!

Baseball - Gamble and you get a lifetime suspension....no ifs, ands, or buts.

Basketball - Physically assault paying fans, kick camera men, choke coaches, or bringing a 2X4 board to practice to use on another player will get you a 35 to 60 game suspension, reduced 100% of the time to an even shorter duration after the players union complains.

not only lifetime suspension but forever ineligable for hall of fame.

Maybe I am just an old fogey, but I remember the days when the game was played by the rules, without all the flambouyent hullaballoo, without the taunting and without the fights. It wasn't about shoes or cd's it was about basketball pure unadulterated stone cold basketball.

Really, people obviously love Jerry Springer on the half court. A badass half court shot makes a man a hero regardless of criminal records and public actions. But I gotta say alot of people made it out of the ghetto on more than a lay up and they wouldn't beat the snot outta someone for throwing a beer on them.

All that aside Artes is a punk. He gives the sport a bad name. He smacked Wallace on the back of the head to incite a fight. Before the fight even broke out he had broken numerous rules. Everything else aside he needs a permi ban from the nba.

Yep. Of course.

Resisting arrest? That single incident is enough to show how he is.

Fans that bring up lawsuits for stuff they instigate are scumbags too, that has to be said.

But I think these big sports stars, many of them, feel they're ENTITLED to their fame and money. Um, no, they only have it BECAUSE OF THE FANS. Most of them don't realize this simple fact. But if they required significant intelligence for players in pro sports, they'd lose half their players and it wouldn't be as good. So they don't! Because not as good equals not as much money, right?

As long as the fan doesn't get court money for this, I think it's pretty much fairly resolved now. (Well criminals and such really should be banned from sports entirely, but that won't happen.) The fan got some whooping payback, and the players were punished as well...sounds good. I don't think the fan should have anything more than a nice big fine to pay, (don't know if that's the case), assuming he/they were the ones walking away with pain and the players weren't. If the fan doesn't at least pay some kind of fine, something's wrong there.

As a side note, to NBA or other players who went into pro sports "to get out of the ghetto", here's a tip:

Don't bring the ghetto with you!

It wasn't just gambling. Pete Rose deserves to be banned for life. He bet while as a player and manager and the betting involved his team.
I don't think he bet against his team and try to throw games, but I'm not totally sure.

I'll guarantee if a basketball player was betting against his own team and deliberately tried to throw the game, he would get banned for life no question about it.

It's about preserving the integrity of the game. Not some moral lesson on holding back your anger.

Really? I guess you missed the whole bad boy Piston's era.

I even remember an article where Babe Ruth got taunted by a fan and he chased after him. He couldn't catch him.. but then he yelled out to everyone in the crowd saying he'll challenge anyone to a fight.

edit:
Artest didn't incite a fight. He gave a hard foul. If anything, Wallace incited the crowd by going all buckwild.

The coaches share the blame as well. What the hell was Artest & Wallace even doing in the game with less than a minute to go with the game basically over? It was garbage time. They should have been sitting and the scrubs should have gotten some playing time. Looks like to me, the conference rival coaches wanted to make a statement.
It's like when Larry Brown got chewed out by the coach of Spain during the Olympics for calling a time out with seconds left in the game when the game was a blow out. That's total disrespect and the coach from Spain had every right to be pissed.
Ever since then and now the recent incident, I've lost some respect for Larry Brown.