An unfair banning and a proposition

I really have to speak up on something here. It's pretty flip to say that the reason kids aren't allowed in SL is -only- because of the way americans deal with sex. Or that it's only the thought of some kid seeing a nipple or whatever.

I don't think it matter s one bit how 'mature' some 14 year old can act online, there's just NO place for them in many places in SL. Let's be real here, the online world can have a massive impact on someone, and there's a lot going on in SL that a kid simply has no business getting involved in. No matter what country you;re from!


As an IMPORTANT disclaimer: I am in NO way putting down these things, I happily participate in many of them.

I'm not talking about pornographic imiges either, I'm talking about some of the hard core fantasy stuff out there. Pet auctions, avatar sex and honest to goodness emotional ups and downs that leave mature experianced adults crying on the floor devastated.

Expose a 14 year old to this? Are you CRAZY? I don't care how 'mature' their typing is, no kid has the life experiance to deal with a fuill on BDSM sex party! No kid has the experiance or maturity to be a pet at an auction. No kid should be involved in an emotional and/or sexual tryst with adults!.

It's real easy to say "but i'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the PG type SL experiance".

NO, you;re talking about a kid in SL, and there's just no way anyone can say the kid would stay in the PG SL experiance is there?

I refuse to stand by quietly while others discuss kids in this world as if the worst that they can see or experiance is no worse than late night cable television. Do any of you experiance SL so shallowly? I'v e been in SL for most of a year now and seen friends shattered by emotions and conflicts brought about by their second life. Is it realistic to think that just because a kid is a kid that they -won't- get involved that deeply? Can anyone -really- say some 13 or 14 year old has the depth and experiance and wisdom to handle these things? I don't care how mature they seem, but like it or not, admit it or not, agree with me or not, but in a very real way it's the number of years and the number of experiances a person has under their belt that makes them an adult, not some magic number on their drivers license.

SL can be powerful. SL can be seductive, and anytime we as people are in a situation that we can let ourselves go so intimately and freely, with so little personal danger, we also open ourselves to damage that a kid just has NO place being in danger of.

Kids are kids and it's shocking and sad to think that people would be allright with allowing children to wander freely in this place where we let our imaginations and desires build. It's irresponsible. It's criminal, and I don't mean what the US law books say is criminal. I mean it's criminal in a moral sense.

It's also not a case-by-case judgement, no kid, no matter how 'mature' they seem should be in SL. If we imagine that it's not a virtual world, but say a RL island somewhere where we can be and do all the things we do in SL, no one would bring or let in a child! No one except someone who's sick would for one second consider letting kids participate in RL things like what DO go on is SL. So why is it OK since it's virtual??

Kids have NO place in SL.


ps Sorry for being so harsh about this. Hope I didn't piss anyone off.

You didn't piss me off, but as strongly as I will argue the Kuro should not be allowed back onto SL until he's 18, I will argue that the above quoted statement is a simple and over-generalized falsehood.

Yes, many or most kids at 14 aren't emotionally or mentally ready to be exposed to things such as sex parties, pet auctions, etc. To say that none are is ridiculous.

Legalities aside (because I have no idea what the laws are concerning fully clothed avatar auctions...if there are laws for such things), there are a lot of "kids" out there who are not "kids" for one reason or another - or for a whole boatload of reasons that you or I couldn't even begin to understand. When I was 14, I was *mature* enough to handle exposure to in-game sexual exploits, meaning that they were simply some people acting out their fantasies and I had no interest in partaking in someone else's fantasy. Since then, I have "grown up" a little, and find that I would rather participate in "childish" activities sometimes, such as Pin The Penis On the Supermodel (I've never actually seen this in-game...I'm just taking a random example ), whereas my child self would have found this behavior to be at a level of immaturity that I could not tolerate...and I get the feeling that this line of thought is making no sense... Sorry.



No, I don't think I am sick. I just think it is important to realize that placing all people into a certain category because of their age is impossible, because human nature allows for individuality. As for allowing kids to do things in real life...well, in real life there is sex and sexual exploitation all over the place...and yet we allow kids. So...

Anyway, none of this changes my position that under 18 should not be allowed in SL. I just wanted to address Jellin's post and assert that I am, in fact, NOT crazy.

I totally agree with everything Jellin said. And nothing Jellin said is an 'over generalized falsehood'. It's the truth, plain and simple.



You can't put up any argument starting 'legalities aside...'. That's just silly. I can just see that being used up and down the land. 'Yes, judge, but legalities aside, I killed him cuz he was f*cking scum.'. 'Oh, well, in that case we'll make an exception for you. Off you go, have a nice day.'. It's a non-argument because there are laws that spell out what you can or can't expose minors to throughout most of the civilized world, they aren't about to be changed and that means it can't ever happen.

Point of fact; LL are upholding the law. It DOES NOT MATTER how grown up you think you are at 14 or what you think you can and can't handle.

And besides. Have you thought of it from the point of view of other residents?

How would you feel if you got together with someone you like for some adult fun or started a relationship and then found they were 14? Eww. eww eww eww eww eww.

What Jellin said. Kids have NO place in SL.

I have been doing some research into California law .
It seems the legal age for a lot of the stuff Linden Lab is allowing in mature sims is 21 NOT 18.


I am not a lawyer but I do know the age to enter an ADULT bookstore in California (where Linden Lab is) IS 21 .

So the question is this. What do you do with the 18-21 group?
You already let them on Second life and Under California law Its not legal to view certain types of adult material unless you are over 21.

As for under 18 Linden would increase its its income several fold by converting second life to a family venue. Personally I wouldn't let a kid play because of the content I have viewed on the general forums is not acceptable and they can be read without a password. Our resident forum griefers have on more then several occasions posted real bad stuff on the general forums consisting of hate speach, anti American sentiment and just plain old nastiness.It ramained there till i called Linden on the phone and chewed them out about it being there. Linden hasen't followed it's own TOS since it started and I doubt they will ever follow their own rules. I could give several examples but I won't because some of the stuff has indeed changed.

Anyhow some friendly places for younger ones to hang out are the following services. I am posting them for reference only and in no particular order. I have tried these all and they are still active. I am not recommending one over the other.

Asherons Call
Asherons Call 2- (One of my favorites)
DisneyQuest - (I beta tested this and loved it )
Horizons - (Nice graphics)
Project Entropia - (A real ripoff but sorta kid friendly)
There - (Kids Kids Kids and fun)
Everquest - (Kinda tough but ok)
Ultima Online - (I didn't care for it )

I disagree with this point. When I see your posts stating this, and then you claiming that you don't spend much time in world and when you do you are only with a few friends, it makes me wonder if you really see and hear what the vast majority of very social and active people in SL want from SL.

I can sit here and name *at least* close to two hundred people I know in world that would leave SL in a heartbeat if it changed from being 18+. Two hundred may be a low number, but that is only the number that I personally can vouch for. Among these two hundred I hear that their friends feel the same way. And so and so forth. I'm confident in making bet that if we could poll every person in SL, that the results would be a majority favor for keeping SL 18+.

It doesn't matter the variety of reason WHY these people want SL to be 18+, because the common goal is the same. Which is to keep it as it stands.

LL made a smart move finally offering an environment to the 18+ only crowd. With all the games I"ve played over the years, I have heard the wish for that restriction time and time again. And the fact that SL is 18+ only, is the deciding reason a great many people felt SL could be the online environment for them.

You gave a great list of other games that are wonderful options for those under 18. Why would LL want to increase its competion by lowering itself into a bracket with other online environments? Why in the world should they have to? They seem to be growing more and more successful daily, so I don't think they have much to worry about. If LL wants an enviornment friendly to the 18 and under crowd, then they need to make a completly new and different world/game.

Excellent post, Pen. Exactly what I'd have said if (a) I could have been bothered to write that much and (b) I was half as eloquent at putting across my point as you.

So yeah. What Pen said!

You're right...there are laws that say exactly what kids can and cannot be exposed to when it comes to sex. At one time, there were laws saying exactly what a black person could or could not do, laws stating what women could or could not do, so on and so on. So, since the law says so, it must be true.

My saying legalities aside meant exactly that. LEGALITIES ASIDE. I was addressing the issue from a non-legal standpoint. I understand that there are laws in place that govern what kids can be exposed to. However, not everything in the world can be classified as "legal and, therefore, good", and "illegal and, therefore, bad".

I certainly wouldn't stand up in court in order to defend my opinion that some kids are more mature than others. What kind of legal proceeding would that be? I thought I made it pretty clear, but in case I did not, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE LAW. I am talking about individuality.



POINT OF FACT: that has been my point since my first post on this thread. But thanks for your support.


Edited to add: I second your praise of Pen's post...which leads me to wonder why, exactly, we are at odds here.

I am terribly sorry kuro was banned, I respect what he/she was trying to do. However, I have to agree with Pen on this one.
The reason is, I am looking back at myself at 14, 16,18. Even though I had many older friends and was generally considered mature for my age, Looking back *as an adult* at myself, I would not have emotionally been able to handle some of the BS that happens IW.
I'm not talking about the sexual content, or the intensity of relationships. Ppl under 18 have intense relationships that invovle sexual content all the time RL. SO thats not where I'm coming from.
What's I'm talking about is some of the spite that happens IW.
I have seen some very very ugly and intense mudslinging and bile go on IW, and the thought of a minor who doesnt have the maturity to let that just roll off thier back...thats a disturbing thought. Most FULLY, inarguably non-minor players I know arent even truly capable of letting it roll off.
Some of this stuff has been harsh enough to very believably make a permanent ding in one's psyche.

Sadly, I dont think minors should be allowed in sl, because im not sure the "adults" have figured out how to behave yet.

Now, that said, the COPA argument Cat has made is very very valid. Whether ones believes the content iw is light enough for Avatar X to be able to handle it, is irrelevant. The law is the law, and making *knowing* exceptions for one minor, no matter how mature they may be, has the potential to open a can of worms that could lead to the closure entirely of SL. If that means an undeserving minor gets the boot now and then, then thats what it means- the rules dont exist simply because thats how LL prefers it to be.


in other news.....


Wha? Confused. If they dont ever enforce the TOS and never have, how could anything change?

Lindens say no minors or you get banned. Your buddy's a minor and he got banned. That's only an unfair banning in your personal opinion. If you want to act like this is a legal case, start using words according to their definitions.

Speaking of legal cases, your analogy is flawed. The TOS is not law in the way you seem to think. The Lindens have every right to amend it at will including ex post facto changes (how's that for legalese?) to meet an emerging situation. If you want a real analogy, SL is a sovereign nation and Linden Lab is the government. The TOS governs your avatars actions while visiting their nation. Your debatable knowledge of US law is irrelevant and inapplicable.

Keeping minors out of SL protects everyone. It protects the minors from innapropriate content, it protects their parents, and it protects the rest of us from immature disruptive players. Are there mature minors? Sure. Are there disruptive adults? Sure. Are the majority of minors immature and the majority of adults mature? Yes.

Bottomline: There will be no trial. Your buddy violated the TOS and got banned, case closed. There will be no maturity test administered to every minor who ever wants to play because there is content in SL that is innapropriate to supply to minors no matter how mature they may be. The fact that we want to hang around other adults without kids running around is secondary.

Easy there, guy with--ironically--a Pac-Man avatar.

Well thank god they dont administer those tests because a lot of the adults would fail at times, myself included. What Nephie said hits a good many points on that.

And personally I think its best to keep the game 18+ before it turns into a AOL chat room of underage sex, language, and violations. There IS legal action in that. It's bad enough we have AVs walking around sexxoring that look like they're 13. Be even worse if they really were. I don't even want to touch that one its unnerving.

The Lindens have their hands full trying to keep the "adults" in line, do you really think they could handle kids? Not yet anyways.

Should I have changed to a Law & Order avatar?

No, no, keep it a Pac-Man avatar, it gives the stoic insensivity of your first post an ironic bend! And I'm all for comedy.

But, seriously, this stands to be said, since many of us in the group feel this way:

If the Lindens want to have a crackdown, why haven't they been looking at more obvious targets? Instead, they mysteriously pickedup on a responsible, contributing member of the SL world.

The point behind the immaturity comments before was that it seemed strange that Kuro would sudden get tipped off as a minor, when there's so many other players who exhibit puzzlingly immature and obnoxious behavior. I put this question out while revealing that our private reorganization thread on Somethingawful has been, believe it or not, archived and posted on public websites. After Kuro got banned, we're now hesitant to post ANY of our opinions openly... and I mean 'openly' on a private forum on a private website.

I mean, if there's a witch hunt, there's a witch hunt, and there's nothing we can do about that. We'd just be, y'know, rather bitter if one really existed. Understandably.

I know of this situation only from this thread, but I"ll be happy to put in my theories. First, is there any chance he admitted his age in a public group? I know most of us like to think we can trust everyone we know (or think we know), but is just not possible. Me personally, I never say anything to a "group" of people that I would not mind everyone knowing. I don't care if it is just a group of "close" friends. Maybe I"m just weird that way, but it always *is* a possiblilty.

As for the witch hunt suspision.. well.. I like most everyone in SL. I am an open and honest person. And I am sure witch hunts do exist. Right along side general condisderation for friends and the whole of SL. I personally do not know anyone would would conduct a witch hunt without feeling justified. Most I know wouldn't conduct one at all. They may state their opposition, feelings, opinions, etc... but not a "witch hunt" mentality.

I'm not saying it isn't possible.. but with SL, as with Real Life.. most things are always possible. But also with SL as with Real Life.. our actions almost always come back to bite us in the butt... hehe

I just can't understand the mindset of "go after the bad guys - but not just the bad guys. Only the really, REALLY bad guys."

Violating the TOS is violating the TOS, whether that means participating if you are under 18, or posting pictures of anal sex in a PG sim, or selling RL heroin to your SL buddies within the confines of your own SL home. Sure, some of the violations are "worse" than others, but if LL were to ignore the violators that they were aware of in order to pursue phantom violators that could be out there somewhere, they would really be making a mockery of their own TOS.

It sounds like the banned person will be a good contributor to SL once they become of age to be here.

You ask, what makes the banned person such a liability to SL if they are a mature contributor to the community.

The person became a liability the Instant that it was revealed or discovered that he was underage.

It so much adds to my peace of mind knowing that there are no minors (None I tell you!) in SL.

Please, when the first minor sneaks in, don't tell me. I'd hate to have the responsibility of reporting you, but I would do it in an instant.

I'm very protective of SL.

I'd have to agree here. It doesn't matter if the avaters a nice person, incrediably inventive, a great builder/scripter/contributer/whatever. Underage is just plain underage. I can understand the need to argue it back and forth, twist it around and use all sorts of doubletalk to justify it, but underage is underage.

If someones underage and I hear tell of it, even as a rumor, BAM it gets reported.

Your maturity is not the issue, only your age. If you are under 18 you are breaking the rules. The rules are there to protect you, your parents, the Lindens, and the rest of us. They are not there to protect anyone from immaturity, or to stifle creativity by underage kids. You miss the point.