An unfair banning and a proposition

My name is Jack McCoy, and I'm an SA Goon.

I realize that puts me on thin ice right away, but understand that I'm not of the Griefing type. I created my account when the main griefing was going on, but left (and cancelled my account) either the day of or the day after that. I understand that griefing is only funny for a small while, and causes more harm than it does good.

So when I saw that a Non-griefing SA group was being formed, I re-activated my account (thus paying the 10 bucks), and joined up under the group formed by Kurokami Khan. He made a group that was able to deliver that SA humor whilst following the rules and not hurting anybody. He "roped in the griefers" as it were.

Just a few days ago, Kurokami Khan was perma-banned for being under the age of 18.

I understand why the rule is in place: You want to keep SL a mature area. And that's a perfectly ok notion. Hell, I think it's a great notion. But we all know that maturity isn't bestowed on a person on their 18th birthday. As some of my SA brethren can attest to, there are many people above the age of 25 who really can't be considered "mature". It's obvious, at least to me, that Kurokami Khan had the maturity to interact in SL.

I humbly ask that Kuro's account be reactivated. I respected him for taking the lead in making SA a positive influence in SL, and if there's anything he wasn't, he's not a griefer.

If my argument hasn't swayed a Linden's opion, then hear my proposition. A trial. Hell, I am Jack McCoy, after all.

In seriousness, if SL is all about the interaction of people, then let the people decide whether or not this visionary is fit to participate. A jury of 12 is all I ask.

I thank you for your time.
-Jack McCoy

I have been looking for a place to jump into posting here... My lurking experience has given me a very good indication of where NOT to jump in.

This place seems as good as any as it is a) a new post, b) regarding a topic that I feel strongly on, and c) asking for people's opinions.

My opinion: Don't lift the ban.

No ill feelings toward Kurokami. I don't know him from a hole in the ground - or anywhere else, for that matter. What I do know is that if he was under the age of 18, then he was in a very direct violation of the terms of service. This is a no-no. This results in a ban. (Come on, Jack, you're a "lawyer". You should know this.)

I completely, totally, 100% agree that responsibility and maturity do not magically set in the 18th birthday, that a person cannot be judged on his her age, alone, blah, blah, blah. ABSOFRAKINLUTELY. But vague interpretations of the TOS don't benefit anyone.

Also, my understanding is that those who are banned for being underage are permitted to re-subscribe once they reach age. So unless this guy is 6, he shouldn't have to wait too long until he can be back in the thick of things.

Edited to add: Also, some of the things that can be seen in SL are illegal if accessed by under 18-yr. olds. Can't have that, now, can we?

He was also one of our best modelers, dammit.

I'm in full agreement with Kariana on this one. I know many people under the age of 18 who are VASTLY more mature than some of those I know who are 30+. Age is not a hard-and-fast defining factor for maturity.

However, I also agree that the ban should stay based on why it is in place.

A) Statistically speaking, there are more mature personalities over the age of 18 than there are under. Sure, it's as debatable as a subject gets, but the debates usually narrow themselves down to "exceptions of the general rule". I think we can take it as a granted. SL has it's share of immaturity, but if you compare it to ANY other online world that allows for all ages, you WILL see a difference. For that reason, I support the age restriction and it's enforcement.

B) As said already, some of the imagery that is easily accessible here in the world of SL is illegal to be viewed by a child under the age of 18. That means liability, and that = bad news for LL.

So for both legal and personal reasons, despite the great things I've heard about the individual in question (and I have heard), I could not support lifting the ban, myself.

I think there is legal mumbo-jumbo about exposing minors to some of the mature content that can be found in SL.

This is a US related problem more than a SL problem. The masses of us Americans who just like to be told what to do / think are very up-tight about public nudity.

I think it's the Puritans' fault: They came here after they were kicked out of England for being too up-tight, and The English were the foremost western authorities on being up-tight for a long time.

As I said, I understand the reasoning behind the rule, and that the rules are there for a reason. But on the same note, I'm sure there's dozens other SLers under the age of 18 whom you wouldn't know otherwise. Hell, when I was 15-16, I was often mistook for an older person (I'm 23 now, for the record). I'm sure if you found out someone was under 18, you'd report them immediately, right?



Again, if an FBI agent happened to waltz into SL, I'm 100% positive that they wouldn't have tagged Kuro as a minor. Again, there's the letter of the rule, and the spirit of the rule.

I know this sounds like a Peter Griffin-esque "Come oooon! Come ooooooonnn!", but I honestly think that unless the immaturity of the person is becoming an issue to the community, the rule should be one of the most flexible.

The 18+ rule is to keep a lot of the ne'er-do-wells out, and to keep LLabs from being smacked with lawsuits by overprotective parents.

There are tons of underagers floating around SL, but most of them have the common sense not to tell ANYONE about it.

Any claim that someone is underage is usually dealt with swiftly by LLabs (proof of age, for instance, faxed to them).

If you let in 13+, you're going to have an environment akin to "There" or "TSO" or even most first person shooter games (OMG I HAXXED U CAMPIN FAGZOR!)

this game truly rocks because of the 18+ rule. Sorry

LF

A "flexible rule" is not a rule at all. It's the wishy-washy prerogative of a certain person at a certain time. Indeed, if I met someone in-game who said to me "Kariana, I'm 12. Shhh!!" I probably wouldn't say a thing to LL or anyone else. Personally, if that person is not running around like an immature chicken with its head cut off, I wouldn't care much one way or another if s/he was 12 or 60.


I'm not a Linden. I don't make the rules. I don't enforce them.

The Linden's are there to care about the things that I don't care about - like whether or not the game could be shut down completely for not complying with the laws that govern the country out of which it is based, or whether the people involved in the game become too inundated with SPAM and advertisement that they cancel their memberships...etc., etc. I could go on but don't worry, I won't.

Point is, just because I don't know that you are under 18 doesn't mean that it's okay for you to be here. Just because I don't know that you beat children doesn't mean that it's okay to do it. Just because I don't know that you have an unhealthy attraction to luncheon meats and stiletto heels doesn't meant that...ew. Sorry, sidetracked by mental images...

It's not okay for him to be here. End of story, really. Tell him to come back when he's 18 and put me on the list of people to welcome his re-arrival.

I think there is some confusion on this issue.
I don't believe this account was ever used by a minor, and therein lies the reason why the banning was wrong.

Whatever fantasies people choose to act out online is their own choice. I think that is truly what is the problem here.

Eh? I don't get it. So he wasn't a minor - just played one on TV, as it were?

Please clarify.

The 18+ rule is good.

It has nothing to do with maturity and everything to do with being an adult and the personal accountability that comes along with that.

In previous games our guilds were 18+ only. That way we didn't have to worry about mommy seeing our language or blaming us for someone failing their math test.

I'm sure he was a nice guy. However, the 18+ rule is a good one in my opinion and should be enforced.

When you are dealing with minors you are also dealing with their guardians and all the biases that come with that.

Hey, what I do with my bologna is none of your concern.

I think the missed point is that this guy wasn't doing the SL equivilent of beating children or humping ham. He was a positive influence on the SA crew and SL in general. Consider a man who's having huge success reforming criminals in therapy. Would you stop him from practicing beceause he wasn't licensed?

The question I ask you is this: Was his presence in SL really detrimental? Is SL a better place in his absence?

Edit: I haven't logged into SL since I posted this (I'm at work), but I'm taking some flak on the forums, and I'm sure I'm getting the business end of some words in game for standing up. Ahh well.

This has nothing to do with good deeds or actions in game.

Children under the age of 18 are not responsible for themselves.

They are a liability to have around in this environment and LL is doing the right thing by protecting the game for all of us.

I wouldn't do a blessed thing. I think the missed point HERE is that I really am not the take-charge kind of person when it comes to enforcing rights and wrongs. However, there would be every good reason for the authorities to stop this person from practicing until becoming license. In this situation, Khan knowingly and intentionally broke the TOS and, therefore, should have been prepared to be booted when the powers that be exercised their...power to, uh...be.




Again, I have no idea because I do now know him, myself. But I can understand and support LL in not wanting to open the "case by case basis" can of worms. What if every <18 yr. old out there decided that they wanted to be a part of SL? Every single one of them could come up with a reason that they should be allowed. But as soon as LL knowingly bends the rules for one, they set themselves up for a barrage of others who will demand the same treatment.

Bottom line - if LL lets in just ONE person who they know is underage, then they are legally required to remove all of the "mature" (see: pornographic) material and no longer allow it in SL. Is this Khan's intent? To get rid of it all? Because that would be the result, were the Lindens to allow him in before he turns 18.

FTR, I deal with ageism, and age-based sexism almost every day of my life. I am a very serious supporter of young people fighting to prove that age is nothing more than a number. Please don't take my posts as a "death to minors - young people are dirt" opinion. It is not.

That's right Remo, it's called COPA, the Child Online Protection Act. Basically, it works liket his: if I make something sexually explicit and a minor sees it, I can be procecuted. (Whether my government would participate in my extradition to the US is another matter, but I'd like to be able to go in and out of the US should I ever feel the need to do so.)

That's also why Linden Lab requires you to sign up with a credit card even before you can try SL in the first place. Under COPA, a credit card is considered valid ID for age-verification purposes.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that even if a minor has lied, it's still Linden Lab's problem if they're later found out, or if their parents press charges. That's why the Lindens are so quick to ban minors.

Rest assured that even so, there are minors in SL. There likely always have been. Many of them are mature enough to function in SL without exposing themselves, (figuratively speaking, of course) as well as to handle the material that the US government deems too vile for their young eyes. However, they're breaking the rules Linden Lab set in place to comply with the US's laws, and so need to be banned, both to protect Linden Lab, and to protect the rest of SL's residents.

Yes, it's a stupid law and shames not just America but all of human civilization. However, in a world where you yourself could go to jail as a registered sex offender because some kid walked by and saw your naked avatar, do you really want to take the chance?

It's not about how cool a guy he was.

It's about LL being legally responsible for someone under 18 seeing something naughty.

The entire game could be brought down by one overprotective parent who sued LL because their kid saw a picture of a nipple.

By saying "18+ only" they escape that threat. Any angry parent who might approach can be deflected with the rule and told to keep a better eye on their kid and their credit cards.

It's that simple.

I have also experienced something like jack's problem. My friend (sl), Victor lorentz was banned for being 14 years of age. You would have never guessed it, he was mature, and the best modeler around at the time. Unfortunately, he did not go quietly. Soon after he was banned he came back as Vlade ... something, and decided he was going to get the last laugh. He created an object that horribly lagged, or crashed sims, for no particular reason (there was no reason why they should crash sims, i think it was a bug) and went around dropping them on as many sims as he could, including the sim that Garth and Pituca were going to hold their wedding. I do think it was unfortunate that he was banned, but i agree that not allowing >18 year olds into SL is a nesesarry rule to have.

ROFL Thanks for that Kariana!!

Now to stop my hijack


I think the reason the Linden's don't allow minors in game is purely legal. As was said before, some of the content here is pornographic in nature, and under U.S. laws, people under the age of 18 cannot view it(and I think the age may be 21 in some states, but I donno). If someone slaps a lawsuit on LL for their child seeing this content, I'm pretty sure it would be the end of SL as we know it. Now I don't know about you....but I definately don't want that!!

It is true that there are minors in game....and I am under the firm belief that when LL finds out about them, they handle the situation immediately. I will also say that if I find out someone is a minor...I don't go running to "Momma Linden" to tattle on them, that's just not who I am. If they can handle themselves like adults in game, more power to em!!! But if they go around telling their true age, you better believe they are gonna get banned.

Now, if your friend (Kurokami was it?) is truely of age, he should have been able to prove it, and there would have been no ban in the first place. Sorry, but I have a VERY hard time believie that LL banned him without giving him the chance to prove his age.

Finally, you're asking for special treatment for your friend, and personally, I think that is just dumb. Have you not seen all the drama on the other forums here about LL supposedly giving special treatment to some and not others?? If you haven't, you should check it out. Why should your friend get special treatment? Because he was a good buildier? or scripter? or whatever? Well, that just doesnt' fly with me. There are plenty of people with great skills here who are of the correct age. Now I'm not saying that your friend isn't welcome here or that SL couldn't use more talented people.....but what I am saying is that he just needs to wait til he's of age and then come back to SL and add his contribution til his heart is content. In fact.....tell him to come find me when he does come back...would love to welcome him back into SL

To sum up my rambles........I don't think LL has ever handed out a ban that someone didn't deserve; and asking for special privlidges is out of the question.

Edited to add: This is not an attack on you Jack, and I apologize if my reply seemed a bit angry....but this is an issue I feel very strongly about.

Last time I checked, there are multiple court cases where minors are tried as adults. If it is shown that a minor knows right from wrong, he is held in the same regard as everybody else.

Frankly, I think if it came to a real trial, it would hold up. But maybe that's just me dreaming. Hey, I can wish, can't I?

Edit: Let me make one thing clear... I'm not asking for special treatment for Kuro. Quite frankly, if anybody can prove themselves a mature person, I would welcome them with open arms (like I'm in any position to welcome anybody, I've really only been a part of SL for a week or so).

He mentioned faxing his driver's license.

Yes, people have been charged and convicted over COPA.

The problem is, while the law would likely get overturned, (and there are a number of court cases working on that as we speak) the Lindens can't really afford to get shut down and have all their computers seized, deal with getting charged by the US government and sue the government as well. It would put a fairly sizable dent in their bottom line.

LOL...to quote you, the point that is being missed here is that this isn't child beating or the equivalent. (Not an exact quote...sorry. )

Court cases where children are tried and held as adults are generally rape cases, murder cases, etc. *Capital* crimes. The "child" is held accountable as an adult, as a Defendant. Not as a Plaintiff. In sad, but true, point of fact, children are afforded very few rights in American law.

In any case, in this instance, Kuro isn't the party that would be liable. LL is. Therefore, they have taken the action necessary to avoid any liability that would come from Kuro's underage participation in a game which allows and welcome's "mature" activities and materials.

By the way, would mind sharing how, exactly, Kuro got "caught"? I'm still confused by the people who are claiming that Kuro was not, in fact, underage. It doesn't appear to that you, Jack, are claiming this, but it is throwing a wrench into the thread that I would like to better understand.

You win the thread!

Change the American mindset, and you can get him and any other kid back in.

Until America stops being afraid of sex and parenting, kids won't ever be in SL (legally).