I want my Kerstin back!

Aw, Hikaru! That was you? Anyone who knows you is well aware you are *not* a griefer. It's seems like Kirsten too extreme measures rather quickly and without consideration for resolve.

Valfaroth, unfortunately you seem to believe there is some magic wand the Lindens can wave to tell immediately who is there to actually contribute TO the beta test and those hwo will only cause trouble. Your "griefers" (which ounds like a couple of people just having fun on the wrong person's property) are not rewarded for their behavior. And nothing is taken away from ANYONE due to the acts of another that we don't let them take. You cannot, by any logical mean, expect in a Massive Player meduim to expect everyone to commiserate in a stress/conflic free manner. There will be altercations, there will be people whi disagree with you, there will be people with different agenda's than yours, there will be those who wish only to cause the rest of us turmoil.

someone shot me tonight while I was building, when I respawned, he shot me again and shot me no less than 20 times, repeatedly, in my spawn spot, until I crashed. Of course I didn't like it, but I also didn't over-react.

Kerstin booted them, she reported Hikaru for playing on her property. She took the necessary actions to ensure there is a 'code of conduct' in her presence/on her property. To essentially have a nervous breakdown and quit because of it suggests that quite possibly our dear Kerstin needed to take a well deserved break from the game. I have to agree with the others when I say it's probably for the better for her, and I hope she finds happiness no matter where her path may lead her, however she will be missed.

If one of the best SL socializers quits the game...
...only then have the greifers truly won!

I think, by leaving, Kerstin has only made things worse and not better. If you'd like to disagree with me, let me know, otherwise I can only assume through all these posts that you agree.

It's been stated in the past that greifer controls are being constantly developed. This is a !@#$ing beta test (as Nexus puts it) and if you are mad that your feature isn't implemented, that's what waiting for the next game build is for. It doesn't matter that it should have been prevented, what matters to us as beta testers is that it eventually is prevented before the game goes live. Until the game is actually live, there is absolutely no reason to get so emotional over a problem that is currently affecting us, when it could be fixed in a matter of days for all you know.

Kerstin should come back with the understanding that leaving didn't help solve anything and the only way to help us all is to persist in her efforts to get us all a better SL society.

In defense of Hikaru (but not of griefers), I have met Hikaru and she is not a griefer.

This seems like a misunderstanding, too bad Kerstin left under these conditions.

Obviously griefing to one is not griefing to another. But then I do live in the outlands....



fen-

Crap like this always happens because of some misunderstanding or other. The benefit to the secondlife is that when it isn't going the way you want it to, you can delete it.

first, I've said before that Kerstin didn't leave to solve anything...she left for her protection...she's not hoping to accomplish anything except to get away from these people.

Phaylen.....you were not there....don't tell me



when it's clear you don't know what's going on....hikaru was fighting for 15 to 20 min...during an event....(why do you think all those people were there hikaru?)....not off to the side.....pushing other people around...in the middle of everyone swinging their swords away.....ruining what kerstin had spent the first half of the night PREPARING....she worked hard to get that ready and they ruined it....



there's a flaw in your statement.......it was not appropriate behavior for that event.....anyone who worked hard on an event....(planned it out not just threw it together)....would be upset if some people decided it would be ok to trash their event......You need to stop blaming Kerstin and start looking at those who should NOT have been there....who had no intention of participating in the event......who did nothing but grief everyone there interested in participating in that event....

I say one more time....(if i have to say it again you are obviously not listening .....or just want to protect your friend behind a wall of lies).....Kerstin was Patient......she tried for nearly 20 min to get them to stop and to bring order to chaos....(it was chaos.....I couldn't stop it either)....after 20 MINUTES!! she decided to eject people....(AND I watched her do this.....) ......only those who continued to swing swords were ejected......only those who continued to grief were ejected....

PS - don't patronize me phaylen.....There are further steps that can be taken to safeguard against this kind of stuff in the beta....did you notice there is no age verification of any kind? I guarantee you we have NUMEROUS underage people in here....and I would also go as far as to say that I believe the majority of hte griefer problem is made up of the same underage people. (Note i said majority....I'm not calling out you or your friends.....)

Just a quick question Nicole....How do you delete all the work that goes into an event?

Sounds like it was deleted already.

yes it was.....and that's the problem here.....

WOOHOO Go Outlands!!!! We have wars in the oulands all the time! it's super fun! I've gotten stuck int he middle of one once, well a couple times. Not much you can do about, then again that's why i live in the Outlands.

I do how ever understand that it would hurt someone to see their event go of course like that.

Hikaru, don't worry about it. It's not your fault Kerstin left.

yeah, keep on greifing....there will always be fools to defend you.

< Flame Deleted >

Xavier

well hmmm....

Not too sure, but it kinda looks like I was called a fool here.
If that is the case:

1. I was not at all defending griefing.
2. I believe you would be wrong, even if I was defending griefing.


fen-

1. if you weren't defending griefing then why would you think i called you a fool?

2. you don't think defending greifing is wrong?

Val, please, just stop.

I actually wrote a pretty scathing barb in this post, then deleted it when I realized by trying to counter what you're doing now, I'd be doing the exact same thing.

You can't go on like this. You're an inch away from lashing out at everyone who has done anything you didn't like, or even doesn't agree with you fully... and as proof, I have a feeling I'm going to be next.

After getting as much information as possible, I don't think anyone reacted perfectly in the whole situation. Yes, Hikaru got in a sword fight, but she didn't even notice an event was taking place. What is wrong to get so wrapped up in a fight that she didn't notice until she was teleported out? Yes. Was it wrong for her to get in trouble for returning to apologize? Yes.

They had a fight. They didn't brandish out 64x Cardboard Tubes and start catapulting guests into the ocean, then encage Kerstin in a steel cage for an encore. You've lost sight of the true meaning of a griefer.

I don't think I've even been to an event where a small fight didn't break out, if not during then immediately afterward. Yes, they accidentally hit Kerstin. But I've brought weapons to Kerstin's house. I'VE accidentally hit Kerstin. Am I next?

Wally... I'm not going to touch on Wally Money. But I'll post his response for you: "omg y r u mad at me its just a game". But fyi, please stop saying "they rated her negatively and deleted their card." You know why no one is confirming that? It didn't happen. Wally doesn't trade cards when he meets people for the first time... but he will rate them by clicking on them and choosing Rate... which is exactly the "retaliation" Kerstin could have used, card or no card. So she was not negatively rated without recourse.

Was all this disruptive to the event? Yes. Was it worth getting upset about? It very well could have been. Has getting mad and yelling accomplished anything productive in the history of Second Life? Probably not.

Should it have been stressed to the Linden on duty that the situation was getting out of hand? Yes.

Are griefers in general worth rising up about? Yes.

Do we need better measures to stop them? Yes.

Is it about time we did something? Yes.

Is pulling up everything and running away the answer?

...

Apparently so.

I've tried talking to you two, but you're so wrapped up in the security blanket of personal injustice that you've lost sight of the total issue. The point here is not that you were wronged, but that Second Life was wronged. It's not that Kerstin was personally attacked, it's that event holders in general don't have the power they should for when they're harrassed.

Things like this shouldn't happen. But the entire reason we're here is to locate problems like this, and help find ways to stop them. But you two refuse to help me fix things.

You'd rather complain about how they're broken.

And if the nicest people, the coolest builders, the best event holders, won't help to actually make Second Life better when the challenge is raised... then the rest of us will.

I wish you and Kerstin the best of luck. Most of all, I hope you take the time to ponder my words, instead of assuming that I've "turned" on you.

I'm still one of your biggest supporters. But I can't undo Tuesday night. I can fix the system, with help, but you two have refused to have anything to do with it.

So please forgive me if I focus on the things I can change.

Seems to me that maybe someone could take my words in the context of what Nash said as a defense of griefing. I believe I said I was not doing so.

And also, even if I was defending griefing, I still would not be a fool. That would be a incorrect judgement.






fen-

ummmmm... 'scuse me... sorry for interrupting everyone's fantasies

1) I have not discussed with ANYONE except Val the reasons for my leaving. So as you read these vitriolic posts that are spinning off practically by the minute into peoples' fantasy worlds, please keep in mind that none of this actually came from me, or was based AT ALL on my reasons or my feelings.

2) One and ONLY one person has said my leaving had anything to do with rate mining. That person is Catherine. And the only person who said my leaving had anything to do with Catherine... is Catherine. I have gone back and read every related post, and the only one talking about rate mining in regards to my leaving is... you got it... Catherine

3) The only person I have discussed this with, who is Val, stated quite clearly (and accurately) that I left to protect myself from griefing. I will expand on that to tell you, so that you get it right from me, that I can not brush off griefing. It therefore causes me stress. Stress worsens my heart condition. I love many people in here, but have met no one and nothing in SL I'm willing to have a heart attack for.

4) The only correlation I can find between the rating system and my leaving AT ALL is that the current system can be (and is) exploited by griefers to further grief the victim. (They grief you, and then grief you further by neg rating you).

5) A few more facts you may be interested in (of course, I realize some of you are more interested in the fabrications):
a) There were 4 griefers in less than an hour. 1 was prior to the event. 3 were during the event.
b) Val did call a Linden with the 1st griefer, who said he was sorry, but he really was not supposed to deal with things like that, and really couldn't do anything. Not his fault. And I am grateful to him for coming out as he did.
c) I did not report anyone for anything.
d) Multiple people at the incident filed abuse reports. I got this info unexpectedly and straight from Linden (the person examining the reports).
e) Well, this is kind of a lil quiz for ya: if I was supposedly ejecting people for doing nothing, then why were the people there filing abuse reports against the people I ejected? A lil food for thought.
f) Ok one more lil quiz question. If one of people I ejected, more than once, had stopped fighting, then why did she apologize to me -- twice? If I was standing around calmly chatting and someone for absolutely no reason started ejecting me 3 times, believe me, I wouldn't be apologizing -- I'd be cussing them out.
g) Those of you making up stuff up as you go along sure look silly, but hey, thanks for the laughs -- I really needed them
h) I really, really am not coming back

6) To my dear friends, and you know who you are, I love you too. Please email me so we can stay in touch at [email]kersting@optonline.net[/email]

Kerstin

I didn't see Yuniq's post before I posted the above. But to clarify a few things:

- Hikaru got in a sword fight, but she didn't even notice an event was taking place.
*** So she comes to my events -- the exact same ones as that night, and at the exact same time, but on this night she gets there at the exact same time, sees a crowd of people milling around exactly as on the other nites, sees me on the fountain exactly the same as the other nites, sees me giving out all the guidelines for the game exactly as on the other nites, but she has no idea an event is going on? ummmm Ok. (Guess you're telling me Hikaru is a bit dim, eh?)
============
- Was it wrong for her to get in trouble for returning to apologize? Yes.

*** Ok maybe I'll stretch a bit more and buy that. But it was most definitely wrong for her to keep returning when I asked her not to. And it was definitely wrong for her to refuse to leave when I told her if she did not I would report her. Why? Because she had just been 1 of 3 people who completely ruined an event.
==============

- I don't think I've even been to an event where a small fight didn't break out, if not during then immediately afterward.
*** Me too. But when people refuse to stop when they're asked repeatedly to stop, when they are fighting right in the middle of the audience, knocking audience members around, and preventing the event from proceeding, then that's a bit much. Particularly when, at the same time, there's one person setting off rockets, another knocking the host off a fountain, and the entire place has turned into an uproar.
===============
- Yes, they accidentally hit Kerstin. But I've brought weapons to Kerstin's house. I'VE accidentally hit Kerstin. Am I next?
*** ummm nobody hit me. Wally knocked me off the fountain but that was before the sword fight. It was the audience who got hit and pushed

===============
- "they rated her negatively and deleted their card." You know why no one is confirming that? It didn't happen. Wally doesn't trade cards when he meets people for the first time... but he will rate them by clicking on them and choosing Rate... which is exactly the "retaliation" Kerstin could have used, card or no card. So she was not negatively rated without recourse.

*** ummmm ok. Let's take a look at this. I tried to rate all 3 neg. I could rate Hikaru. I could not rate Wally or Spork. The option for Rate and Trade Cards were both dimmed out. I thought Trade Cards was only dimmed out when you had already traded cards. Guess not. Guess it's dimmed out whether or not you've traded cards. So how do people trade cards?

I also thought you couldn't Rate until after you traded cards. So I don't know why both Rate and Trade Cards were dimmed. All I know is that I could not rate them.

And I could have sworn remembering meeting them both previously, particularly since Wally won the lottery a few weeks back. But maybe not.

All I saw when i got there were people standing around not doing anything, i saw people walking around in spam uniforms so i thought maybe there was an event and it was over. I don't keep track of events nor do i keep track of the time since i'm in central time and my hours are different. When we started the sword fight, we moved off to a corner away from people. I don't know how long we were fighting, could have been 20 min i dunno. But i made sure i didn't hit anyone else other than my oponent. It was after that i had put away my sword that i was booted. Cause thats when i realized you guys were telling me to quit. I've got an idea though, whenever i play Return to Castle Wolfenstien on goldrush, we always get people who come in and ruin the entire game. The admins are allowed to kick and even ban people from going there. But some of the people are new and don't understand goldrush, and we are all yelling at them not to cash all our gold. But they don't pay attention to the chat when they are playing. So we added an extra feature. Its a zap, a lightining bolt comes down over their head and you hear a loud thunder clap, and the person dies. And there is a message saying so and so has been zapped by the admin. It seems to work really well, the noobs stop and asked what happened and we tell em the rules of the game.

what happened sucked plan and simple... if Kertsin wants to come back she will if she doesn't she won't.. Kerstin needs to take care of Kertsin no matter what we all think or feel... its her life.. but i do have a problem with Val... this forum is a place where we come and express ideas and thoughts reguardless of how others chose to view those.. they can reply in whatever manner they wish and you can agree or disagree end of story... but for Val go flying around world tonight knock Phaylen into the water and rate her negitively. is just pure meanness .. why??? cause she expressed her opinion .. which is just exactly that an opinion... the things with Kertsin will work themselves out and its unforunate that she left the game but what good does it do to act like that when its not going to change the fact that it did happen. its true none of us know why she left and that's her business to keep to herself or to tell everyone but if you want griefing to stop then don't be apart of the problem

And to think this is all such a far cry from my original posting... and yet, my opinion hasn't changed that much.

I'm done discussing the incident. Anyone else who can't chalk it up as a misunderstanding where tempers flared up is more than welcome to continue, but I really don't have much place or reason to.

Kerstin, I still want you back, and I still want your help in setting things right for the future. But that's secondary. What's more important is that I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do, and I don't want you to come back if it's not worth it.

Much the same goes for Valfaroth. I'm not going to ask you to see my view, and I'm not going to demand you stay or deride you for leaving simply because Kerstin is leaving as well. Even if I don't agree, I understand your actions in this probably better than you know.

I'll miss you both dearly, and I wish you the best.

(hits "POST" and wipes back tears)

HAHAHAHAH.....I wasn't even in the world last night except for 30 min......I handed 94k LD to jen and told her to put it back in the economy....I took down my shop....sold all my land...and logged off.....I wasn't on all night and still you spread lies...

From what I hear Kerstin has done a lot for SL, and i loved that nice home she made. I don't have anything against her in booting me. I don't think she realized i had stopped fighting at that time. I would get mad too if someone were doing something I don't like and didn't hear me. But if you decide to come back Kerstin, my offer still stands to help you align objects so maybe we can rebuild your home.

OK, I been off world for a while so I had a bit of reading to catch up on.

So here goes my opinion.....Before you read this have the understanding that I am on My side and on Linden Labs side. I refuse to entertain anyone elses side, so as to keep neutral...

If there is something that has an affect on the performance, stability, success of SL and Linden Labs in a negative fassion..."I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THAT!!"

I want to see Linden Labs grow with SL. I could really care less of people's over reactions but its the underactions from a beta point of view are a problem..

So with that in mind. Instead of this dragging out further...

Why has no one looked at it from the side of this being BETA???

I came up with a few feature suggestions regarding this incodent....Why can no one and I mean NO ONE, come up with ideas for safe guards to be brought to Linden Labs..

You know why the system benifits griefers???

It is because people get pissed and react personnally and emotionally instead like good little Betas


Feature suggestions to help curb this in the future.................

1.) I suggest that safe non-outland areas can be set to not allow scripts with the damage entry to function.

Like if Kerstin holds an event she can set her land to not allow damage scripts to operate, much like we already can stop people from making objects on our land.

2.) Have another flag for av's to be set to phantom on our land so as to not be able to knock people around.

3.) Have a flag set much like #1 where no scripts other then the land owners can function.

4.) Have a flag set to not allow attachments, and not allow av's with attachments enter our land.

See now wouldn't it be much better if we all learn from mistakes instead of dragging them out???

This continuing in a confrontational manner is just ridiculous, and immature. There is an age restriction set for SL, but not a maturity restriction. It is our jobs as adults and Betas to react to SL in a responsible manner and TEST SL. Yes the SL experience has flaws, but um that is what we are here for.

isnt the first time she has left probably wont be the last either

For once, I think Nexus Nash's signature (which I have complained about in the past) is appropriate:

"IT'S BETA YOU $&#@&% &@$%, STOP BITCHING!!!"

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I signed up as a beta tester I had to sign (on every page) a very long document that made it clear that this was serious business, not just fun and games. Were I subject to any stress related illness I'm sure I would have stressed out before faxing back that document, and would have probably passed on the whole process.

I'm guessing from people comments here that they no longer make people go through all that and as a result folks are just viewing their time here as a chance to use a great new program while it's still free. Weeee!

Contrary to Nash's signature, bitching is OK!! In fact, he should change his Sig to:

"IT'S BETA.... Bitch all you want!!"

I don't think I have met anyone yet (including Lindens) who claim that the software is perfect yet. The program has changed dramatically since I started using it and while I didn't agree with ALL of the changes, I think most of them were at least aimed at addressing users needs and complaints.

But hey gang: IT'S NOT SOUP YET!!! Relax.

Some of us have already had our builds blown away once (fortunately I build at a snails pace). I've had features taken away that I liked, and new features added that I hated, and still other features put back after they were taken away. Thats the idea: B-E-T-A.

I personally hate the rating system. I think the economy thing is way to complex and needs work. I refuse to play the game of grabbing rating points. I wouldn't do it if I were paying for the game and I certainly won't do it as a tester. I figure my goal as a tester is to be ME... not to try and be some ideal gung-ho Type-A personality about the whole thing, because guess what?: Type-A people are not going to use this program. They are going to be out jumping out of airplanes over the ocean with scuba gear on.

There are plenty of people who want nothing more than to pretend they are in the next Star Wars movie while they are in SL. There are people who just want to build and be left alone, there are people who want to socialize and chat, and of course there are people who want to do things that I can't talk about in public.

SL will have to figure out a way to accommodate all of these types of people, or it will have to figure out a way to exclude those who don't "fit the mold". In a way, this dispute is a good sample of what the SL people will have to deal with on a regular basis, except (if their advertising is successful) multiplied by a thousand. I don't envy them.

There will be dozens of enthusiastic clueless newbies (this is the proper spelling I believe) and there will be dozens more people deleting their builds and swearing never to use the program again. EVERY DAY! Can you imagin us all clamoring for someone to go roust the CEO out of his Ferrari to come save the day in every case? You'd better think again.

What the program needs is automated ways to handle these situations, and even more complicated situations that the one that presents itself here. Not only will the CEO not be available, but in a fully populated production system you will be lucky to get *ANY* SL Representative to come save your party. It just isn't cost effective.

So what we really need here are SUGGESTIONS! What additional controls would (for example) an event organizer need to maintain order ON THEIR OWN!!? And yes, when two or more users are having regular run-ins and the situation can't be resolved some poor SL employee is going to have to step in and terminate someone's privileges. But I guarantee you justice will never be perfect. People will be deleted from the game based on carefully trumped up charges that groups of people can easily put together. It won't be no picnic.

-------

One suggestion that I have (I think I have been ignored once already on this) is that a simple wall between parts of the world IS NOT ENOUGH to separate those who want to do battle from those who don't, nor is it enough to put "mature" on the Sims to separate out adult content from PG. I can't imagin how the current system will survive in production when little Johnny's mother spots him floating over a net-sex orgy in SL. My own preference would be for a separate "session" for each type of activity. Go to the building world and you can concentrate on design and crafting of objects. Go to the fighing world and you can practice blowing one another's brains out. Go to the "mature" world and you can errrm use whatever special scripts and object they have there. I suspect that if such a system were in place that most of the "Griefers" (I'd never even heard that term before) would hang out in the fighting world all the time... just a hunch. But even if that were not the case, it would be a lot easier for an SL employee to BAN such a person to the fighting world until they learned some manners. SL employees after all are not going to be encouraged to turn away business!

I'm sure some of the rest of you could come up with specific suggestions, if you will turn away from the finger pointing and get down to the business of BETA testing. If your are not willing to do that then I'm sure you will find that the EXIT sign is clearly marked. Let us hope that you have better luck handling "issues" in your First Life than you are having in your Second.

woah.... this is amazing.... I think... I think... No it can't be! But it's true!!!

*agrees with Rivn*