Dysfunctional SL forums... Solutions?

Hi guys!

OK we have some solid results from the "Are the forums Dysfunctional" poll. Nearly 3 out of 4 people believe the forums have become dysfunctional compared to 2-6 months ago, and they do not expect a productive exchange of ideas when they post. To me, this is enough justification to begin a discussion on reform.

I will toss out a few ideas (in my next post) and I invite you all to join in. Let us critique and refine each other's ideas in a civilized fashion. When we have a healthy looking set of reform solutions, I will put it up for multi-select vote, and then I will bring the most popular options to the Lindens.

A Special Note.
As you participate in this thread, I want you all to think of the movie The Exorcist. The demon has many names, it will use all the deception it can muster to derail us, and the closer we get to a good solution, the more screaming and vomiting it will spray on us. DO NOT LOSE YOUR FOCUS ON THIS ISSUE! If someone hits this discussion with hyperbole, group insults, conspiracy theories, doom-and-gloom conjecture, distorted personal caricatures or Latin chanted backwards in a demonic voice...I BEG YOU ALL to ignore it. Search their post for the nugget of legitimate content and address THAT and ONLY THAT. If you cannot help yourself, then PLEASE start up a new thread, and paste the offensive post there for sparring.

I also ask that you think about long term solutions. "Kick Trollboy Omega out of SL forever" is not an ideal solution as it does not address FUTURE Trollboys!

I am going to post my ideas for solutions separately from this post as they are simply MY ideas (as good as any others) and should not dictate the direction of this discussion.

GOOD HUNTING my friends.

I would like to humbly submit my suggestions for your critique and refinement. I think my solutions fall into the MILDER range of ideas we are likely to see here

My objective for forum reform is to allow everybody to have their say (no matter how furious or controversial) while still allowing discussions to stay on track and not be derailed by a small number of highly vocal and abrasive individuals. To this end I propose we look at the current (and very successful) use of the "Off Topic" and "Notices and Well Wishes" sections.

When it was decided that the General Forums were suffering from an excessive number of distracting posts that fall into these categories, a separate section was created in order to preserve the focus of the General forums. While this is not the EXACT solution to the problem we face, I think we can learn from this model. The idea here is that posts that focus clearly and concisely on the thread topic should be separated from posts that do not. To this end I offer some possible solutions:

The creation of a "Rants and Raves" section
This section would become a safe haven for ANY posts that meet the requirements of the TOS. Furthermore, as part of their routine forum maintenance, the Lindens will move any posts that they deem "disruptive" to the RANTS AND RAVES section. This will allow the ranter and his/her opponents to continue a discussion using their aggressive tone while the polite, on-topic discussion in the original thread continues unabated. Naturally this option would require us to define "disruptive", and it would require Linden administrators to use their judgment in much the same way they currently do to spot off-topic posts.

Or

The creation of a "Higher Standards Area"
If the General forums are the tabloids of SL, then I would like to see the NPR of SL. I propose the creation of an alternate General forum where strict rules of conduct beyond the TOS are enforced by the Lindens. You must stay on topic, and you must be polite. Posts in violation will be moved to the General forums where the mud wrestling can continue leaving the dignity and focus of the original thread intact. The General forum would still be available and operate under its current rules for those that prefer the freedoms they currently provide.

Or

Allow Thread Creators to have the power to delete posts in their own threads
Deleted posts would not vanish completely, but instead would leave a footprint in place of the original post ("Post #23 by Aimee Weber deleted by thread creator" While this option takes some of the burden of administration off the Lindens it suffers a major drawback in its potential abuse. However I opted to list this as an option anyways because:

1. Victims of deleted posts will always be free to create an alternate thread. They can then resume their discussion in any way they see fit while leaving the original discussion to continue as the thread creator intended.

2. Thread creators that abuse this power will quickly earn a bad reputation making their threads unpopular. Conversely, thread creators with a fair and even handed administrative policy will enjoy prosperous and productive threads.

Well. Those are my ideas. I am looking forward to your comments and alternative ideas.

Not a bad idea.

If your first suggestion was enforced there wouldnt be a need for this. Basically this is like admiting General is "Rants and Raves" and "Higher Standards Area" would be the new General area.

Not bad, sure the potential for abuse is there but at least the readers see when someone is being squeelched.

That's a really long post, Aimee. I know you hate it when people write long posts. I'm trying to understand what you mean when you want the threads to be deleted. You mean...if you delete a post that others continue to quote you want it deleted out too? By yourself...or the mods? Or???



I know I am all too frequently the victim of people screaming swear words, writing Latin forwards (and maybe backwards too -- can't always tell because I'm not fluent in it and they post huge swathes of it), insults of me as a TSO player, conspiracy theories that I am out to kill them or SL or the Internet, a hysterical belief that I harm them with criticism of even the mildest kind, people wearing mustaches in their caricatures to heckle me, people posting fruit pictures, and pictures of streakers with asses mooning, and so on. It's kinda troubling, to see all those things they do! But I don't let it get to m e.

I like that idea of the NPR section. I personally don't care for those fake modulated yuppie tones on NPR untroubled by the real life of the rest of us in yuppieland, and I tend to be one of those people who calls NPR "National Palestinian Radio" (but let's not have *that* discussion here, yeesh). But I have even *been* on NPR lots of times, as Nolan Nash could tell you I suppose, and I read lots of NPR transcripts now and then and find much that is useful on NPR.

So...sure, why, not NPR. I'll be first in line to post there. You'll see what happens when you strip everybody of their "right" to use adhominent attacks on me, to belittle and hate me, to harass me with fruit and ass pictures, etc. You'll see that they'll have to engage in my logical debates and reply to the rhetoric I use with logic and reason and their own rhetoric (rhetoric in the sense of debating methods not flame-wars). I think you'll see the whole tone change when people are forced to do that, sure. And you'll be sure to see that I'm right there in the NPR section, unable to be kicked off lol. Unless you wanted to pre-ban me?

If they go on screaming about the Exorcist and chanting Latin backwards, when I've never done that but been the target of people chanting Latin *forwards*, well, they'll expose themselves I guess.

I'm so glad to see you newly active and lengthy on the forums, Aimee! Good luck in your term of office as what blaze said...

Personally, I like this idea best. However, this may require more forum moderation time -if the lindens were warm to the idea - I think its great. Would this be a subset of the General Forum or a sibling of it?

A Rants & Raves section isn't a bad idea. However - folks could easily manipulate this - to get threads sent over to "hell".

Having thread creators be able to delete threads they started isn't a bad idea either - but may have little benefit - and abuse could turn out to be more annoying than the benefit.

My $.02

Thanks for your input so far guys. And remember this thread isn't just about my ideas. I want you to post your own too!

Te audire no possum....musa sapientum fixa est in aure...


Oh! *cough* ahem....

Aimee,
Your first two suggestions are, I feel, excellent ones. I have seen them work to great effect (well, as great as forum moderation can really get) on other boards.

I have mentioned this in another thread, but Straight Dope has a specific section where people can get their rant on - which isn't unhealthy in and of itself, but can be when its all you ever do - and also a forum called Great Debates, where all the biggies slug it out on topics existential, theoretical, political, religious, and humble. The key to posting to Great Debates is you simply have to play by the rules:

1. Cite, cite and cite. Opinions are fine as long as you can back up with facts why you believe the way you do.
2. Clarify. Define. No blanket statements, sweeping generalizations, et. al.
3. Personal attacks IMMEDIATELY get the thread moved to the rant section. Repeat offenders are banned. One should debate the validity of an idea or opinion without resorting to accusations, insinuation, insults (either veiled or overt), dishonest debating tactics, etc.

Basically, you're expected to uphold the civilities inherent in polite, educated, relatively formal debate. Obviously the forum requires a heavy hand from the moderators, but since they almost never close a thread - just warn the offenders and move it - people are generally pretty self-policing about the whole thing. People know to keep out of there unless they come packing facts, specific points to make, and a civil tongue in their heads.

They also have an opinion forum, a mundate pointless crap forum, and a arts/entertainment forum - all of which make up SL's General and Off Topic forums, essentially.

However, I'd like to respectfully disagree with the original thread creator getting post deletion rights. This would make it very hard for Jeska and others to effectively moderate the forums. People already have the ability to edit their own posts - if they feel they've crossed the line, they can correct it themselves.

I think they're all great solutions.

Interestingly enough, I have suggested all three time and and time again.

I especially think option 3 would make a great stepping stone into blogdom.

I always thought "forum" was latin for "rant and rave".


Who's the judge?


Ah, censorship. THAT'S the answer.

I hate mud slinging, I hate name calling, I hate character assasination, I hate endless repetition, and I don't engage in any of that. But I think "let's clean up the forums" is a tactic, just as spewing garbage is a tactic.

When you try to silence malcontents they only get louder. Don't feed the trolls, ignore them.

Buster

Censorship is the only answer.

But this is a good kind of censorship. It's distributed and not in the hands of one power (ll) but rather in the hands of many different ones.

So an evolution can still occur. People will still have a voice in different ways, but those who do not subscribe to that voice will have a better chance of avoiding listening to it.

The trolls will post endlessly and people, by their very emotional makeup, will be required to respond.

Option three is really the only response. I think this is why blogs are so popular.

Fortunately, I do believe that Robin is working on option three.

Actually, option three is the best, I take it back. Option 1 and 2 would just be a lot of people crying out "unfair".

EVERY censor in the history of mankind has said EXACTLY that.

The Lindens. They have always been (for TOS violations, and "OFF TOPIC" posts).



I don't consider it censorship as the poster can freely express their ideas in their own thread with impunity.

Hope that answers your questions! Thanks for the input.

i'm only going to address this part because the rest of the argument rests on this.

one day of polling, in an acrimonious atmosphere, with a baised question is not "a solid result".

Beware of the double edged sword.

I disagree, because this is putting censorhip in the hands of the people.

The problems with solutions 1 and 2 and the problem with censorship as it exists right now is that it is loaded with FICdom.

The beauty of option 3 is that if our ideas have merit, if they evoke the imagination properly - they will get their due light in the sun.

If they don't, then we won't be able to hijack other peoples threads with our ideas

.. but then no one can hijack ours, either.

However, under options 1 and 2, a single censor exists - LL.

I believe this is the beauty of blogs. The wisdom of the crowds gets an opportunity. Everyone gets to have a voice and be a censor at the same time. Evolution can occur.

Perhaps a course on ignoring trolls would be useful. Seriously, you can accomplish a lot with off-forum emails to the troll and forum participants who get suckered into responding or might get suckered in. I used to moderate a conference on the WELL back in the day, and the best strategy seemed to be educating the forum participants to one simple truth: Don't feed the trolls!

This coming from the publisher of the Herald

I think what happened to the Well was exactly what no one wants to happen to SL.

It just spiraled into irrelevancy.

I still believe that linking forum accounts to avatars and only allowing ONE per would mitigate most of the really disruptive behavior and give meaning and weight to the existing post rating system.

Outside of this, I think the 'general' forum is much less productive on the whole than the others here, and wouldn't lose much sleep at all if it went away.

I suppose giving the ranters somewhere to do their thing would be helpful, and experience in a number of places and venues elsewhere tells me that would be, by far, the most heavily trafficked area.

I still think that persistant disruptive behavior should result in action on the part of Linden Labs. Community forums are intended to support the community. Efforts to disrupt or divide the community would naturally be counter to that end.

All in all, I don't think changes outside of sweeping ones or a moderate increase in enforcement will really make a lot of difference. There are a number of posters here who regularly and deliberately seek disruption and without serious attention from Linden Labs, that isn't going to change.

If memory serves, when we had the rant forum it didn't really work. Most rants still started out in general until they got moved to the rants forum. That would let them continue unfettered but it didn't really do anything to improve the discourse in general. My memory is spotty about that though.

A higher standards forum is a good idea I think, although it would depend on some added work for Jeska and Pathfinder, or the introduction of some volunteer moderators.

Somewhere along the line someone suggested a kind of points system, but again I can't really remember how it worked, but I could see it possibly being something like item ratings at amazon that say "5 of 10 people found this review helpful" It it reached a certain level the post would be hidden or deleted. People who post with a bunch of alts could really game that though. Maybe it would just contribute to some kind of reputation points with penalities for sinking below a certain level, like having the number of posts you're allowed to make in a day curtailed for a period of time. All of those things would require different or custom forum sortware though.

It is a trivial exercise to game this.



Yes, this would work as well. Though, I wonder about the implications.

Another idea, is that when you post it doesn't bump your own thread.

That's something I've always thought would be good.

start banning people who repeat the same things over and over again without addressing challenges to their ideas?

There is some great conversation and debate in this thread, but I would like to not-so-gently remind everyone that personally attacking those you disagree with are not appropriate SL Forums.

Censorship is already in the hands of the people with the "ignore" button. Ignore the people who are bothering you.

Moderated forums are common, and I actually prefer them. Better be careful what you wish for though.

It is a blessing that Linden doesn't aggressively moderate these forums and reject anti-Linden messages, which would be a lot more likely to happen if they were deleting messages routinely. I've seen that happen, and it is VERY DANGEROUS.

Having thread-starters moderate their own threads is, I think, a bad idea. Good intentions, no doubt, but I don't think you would get the effect you are after. The forums would become nothing more than blogs. I like blogs, but I also like forums. They are two different things. Don't turn the forums into blogs so that we don't have forums any more.

The cure would be MUCH worse than the disease. It would end almost all disagreement, not just unreasonable disagreement.

(What am I worried about -- it isn't going to happen anyway )

Ok, fair enough.

However, it is a more ideal solution to 1 and 2. I'd rather see cenosrhip in the hands of the individuals in these threads rather the centralized source of censorhip that is LL.