Declaration of Independance ban flap

According to this link a fifth grade teacher has been prohibited from distributing copies of the Declaration of Independance to his class, apparently due to the religious references.

I wonder what the details are here? Is this a case of political correctness gone crazy?
Or was this a case where the teacher was using the documents selectivly to "prove" how religious the founding fathers (allegedly) were, so therefore the the students should take religion (or religion mixed in with politics) more seriously? If this was the case, I could understand (and agree with) the administrators telling him to cool it with the god stuff. Otherwise, I think they're really overreacting.

My twisted two cents....

I don't believe in mixing religion and school, but this is ridiculous. Some people try so hard to follow the rules that common sense gets left behind.

Even if these nuts don't want religion in the school what the f*** bout history weinerbrains?

Um, Dec of Ind = Historical document. period

But I guess they wanna stop teaching mathmatics and literature cause I might read about Zues and think I'm Thor (or Jesse the Body ) and run for president?

Maybe not Egytians and the Pyramids cause you might think your the Osiris-Black Jesus-Old Dirty Bastard and take over the universe!!!!!

Man, damn silly humans!!!!

Just goes to show, the left has as many nutjobs as the right..

ANYTHING taken to an extreme is bad bad bad....

Would the correct term be Liberal Extremism? Fundamentalist Leftism? (shakes head)

It just makes my poor brain boggle.

Siggy.

I'm extremely moderate. Take that as you will. I would hope that there is equlibrium once in awhile, even if it's not in a totally closed system.

"Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity."

This is ridiculous, Christianity plays a huge role in the history of western civilization, I don't see how anyone could teach history without refering to it. If the teacher has been singled out because of using the material to promote his own personal beliefs or something like, that then the issue should be dealt with on that basis, but allowing this sort of censorship could set a very dangerous precedent.

In a California school, why does this not surprise me?

I'm waiting for them to try to ban religious headwear, or the wearing of crosses and such in school. (If they haven't already...)

Don't they realize it's probably going to backfire? It's getting to the point where it's almost like liberalism has declared war on Christianity.

Because California is the best-est!



Nahhh.. but I'm sure there are alot of people who would *like* for us to think that.

This made me spit out my coffee. lol

I'm not the least bit ashamed to think of how beautiful the world would be without religion.

I cannot speak for liberals, since I consider myself a moderate. However, I don't see it as a war on Christianity. Its more like a war on christian zealots. I will not say religion is a bad thing. Many good deeds are done by those who choose to believe. In times of adversity, many have managed to survive by holding onto their faith.

The thing that bothers me is that so many use religion, to push their own agenda. I'll reserve judgement on whether it was right or wrong to punish this teacher. I'm not convinced we've seen both sides of the arguement.

Just for the sake of balance...

Board rejects comparative religion class

"Several Frederick County school board members earlier this month
voted to oppose offering a comparative religion course for fear that
students would be exposed to witchcraft and Satanism.

"I don't think that's the kind of course we want to provide," said
board member Daryl A. Boffman. "I don't think we should introduce
those elements to students. It may encourage them to look into it
further. I don't want the school system to be the spark."

http://www.gazette.net/200448/frederickcty/education/247110-1.html

Gee, pretending bad stuff doesn't exist is the best of all possible actions! Right?

I guess what I want to know is how people that @%&! stupid got on the school board to begin with What century is this again?

So it seems liberals have their fanatics too?

From the article:



Except that the Declaration has no direct references to 'God' or anything specifically Christian. I suspect what's going on here, (and that the article glosses over) is that Williams is pulling snippets out of various documents and is using them to promote the idea of the US being a 'Christian Nation.' It's called Reconstructionism and is a VERY scary branch of the Christian Right.

Remember.... news stories frequently gloss over important details... especially where religious arguments are concerned.



Distinct possibility.

"Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity."

It's possible that the article glosses over some important facts, but this leads me to believe it's an overly anti-relgious principal and not an overly religious teacher. Or it could be both. But we're also in California, in a school, where conservatives of any kind are a rare creature... hmm, I dunno.

There does seem to be a campaign, a backlash, or whatever you want to call it, against Christianity. Well, perhaps I should clarify, I think there's a large movement against the spread and public display of it. I'm not saying people are trying to eliminate it, I'm saying they're trying to force it into a corner so that nobody (that isn't Christian) will ever even hear it referenced. Or perhaps it's only a war against the zealots, but it's offending all of them in the process...all that is going to do is make people fight back. I don't get parents who don't want their kids exposed to religion--shouldn't it be up to the kids to decide and not the parents? Unless we're talking something obviously negative like a cult or Satanism, how can we justify censoring it?

The declaration refers to "Nature's God" which is probably what the principal was looking at. But the fact that he'd actually ban it for this or whatever else he sees is just unbelievable--I don't care what the teacher is saying about it as long as it isn't total bull. If the problem is the course material, then stop that--don't ban the freakin historical document! I have to lean towards the principal being the bigger doofus here given this article.

With the religion class...uh is witchcraft even a religion? I'm leaning towards a no there but I'm no expert. I'm gonna make a value judgement on that one and say teach the class, but leave out the frikkin Satanism. "God forbid" (no pun intended) we make a judgement call like that and leave out such an "important religion", but oh well. I don't think the animal sacrifices or whatever the heck it may involve really needs to be learned about.

Which religions should be taught? Well that's up to the teacher/schools. If anyone figures out a good system to be "fair" to all 10,000 or whatever religions out there, please say so. History teachers have the same problem deciding what to focus on, as do other teachers to a degree. We don't eliminate history classes because of the impossibility of covering every area, time, and event fairly and objectively. And that's all I have to say about that.

Disclaimer: For those who don't know me, grr, no...I'm not terribly religious. I don't even go to church. Maybe sortof agnostic leaning towards the possibility of a creator. If I seem religious it's just the contrast with, and for balance against, alot of the other participants here. On conservative forums I come across just the opposite, I guess. And yeah, I really hate those damn zealots who try to talk you into religion too. omg

Well... wicca is a religion, and it's often referred to as witchcraft and things like that, so yes, it counts. Personally, if it's a class about religion, then they should discuss any system of beliefs, Satanism included. Witholding information because it might be 'dangerous' is a bad precedent to set, in my opinion.

As for disclaimers... I'm about as religious (and for those who believe in such things, psychically sensitive) as a dead stick.

I am still laughing at Johnny using the word weinerbrains. HAHA!

You must be on the same shit I am

Some day God will be removed from everything guys don't worry lol. The way things are heading I wouldn't be surprised if someday, if my child or children decide to believe the way I do, they'll be attending an underground church in secret. Everyone seems to want a world without religion or at least Christianity. I have to ask myself daily why it's so terrible to have the faith that I do. I heard about the child being banned from school in Utah for saying Christmas...where does it end. I am not here to argue with anyone about my beliefs, to each his or her own. I wish peace in everyone's hearts in whatever manner you may find it.


"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you"

Matthew 5:10-12

Something I was taught...something I actually expect...but is still difficult to deal with sometimes.

Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to. I don't just speak of religion here..faith in love, faith in humanity, faith in doing the impossible, and faith in yourself. I just hope we don't lose sight of teaching our children this along the way. So much fear is placed in their minds these days.

That's simple. The only way to be completely fair is to not teach any religion in public schools at all. That's for parents and churches to teach. The only place in public school where discussion of religion is valid is in the context of history and something like that comparative religion class. That's what I find so amusing about the school board deciding not to have the class for fear of their children being exposed to witchcraft. It's okay to expose their children to religion as long as it's their religion. It pretty much pins the needle on the hypocricy meter. It also reminds me of a great quote...

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~Stephen Roberts

I don't think that's true, Torrid. There are some atheists who would love to make religion illegal if they could, but they are a tiny fringe minority. What people want is Christianity out of the public square. When you constantly hear people going on and on about how this is a Christian country and are confronted by Christian symbols and holidays constantly, it tends to make non-Christians feel a little put upon and less than equal. I want to live in a country that truly believes in and celebrates its diversity. We don't have that now, and we won't ever if Christians can't stop trying to spread the "good news" to people who'd really rather not hear it. It's not about trying to destroy anyone's freedom to practice their religion. It's about not being made an involuntary auxiliary to it.

Confronted by Christian holidays...? Chip, are you saying Easter, Christmas, etc. should be banned from having anything to do with government? Christmas is a national holiday--this should change too?

...If so, I don't think it's gonna happen.

I don't understand how it prevents anyone from practicing their religion, though.

Teaching Satanism in schools: IF it involves (I don't know if it does, but...) any kind of remotely illegal activity--and animal sacrifices, torture, whatever/etc. DO fall into that category--it should not be taught in schools for that reason alone. "Freedom of religion" does not override the countries laws (sorry, suicide bombing Muslims, btw).

Chip again: Not teaching religion in schools is one way to avoid bias. And it is just another pointless class, now that I think more about it. But that 'solution' only works because it's a crappy class... "Don't teach it" isn't going to help us prevent bias in English, History, Sociology, or other classes. Sorry

Well, maybe we should just eliminate public schools altogether. They mostly suck anyway. Lower everyone's taxes and introduce competition in the education system! (And it kills all the arguments about religion in schools...what a deal huh? )

Now, in the case of the first story with the Declaration of Independence...doesn't that fall into the category of "context of history"? So you're on the side of the teacher on that one, right?

I was responding to Torrid's comment about feeling persecuted as a Christian and pointing out why there might be resentment among non-Christians (such as myself) that is a catalyst for it. The truth is that we live in a very Christian biased and saturated culture, in which other belief systems and cultures are not well represented. Do I think we should get rid of Christmas? Of course not... but I don't want to see a nativity scene on the lawn of my statehouse. I think that Christmas specific parties and pageants in public schools should be done away with. Have a generic party instead if you must... or better yet, spend that time teaching them something other than a Christian ritual. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm pro neutrality. You can't represent all belief systems fairly, so don't try.



OKay, look at it this way... it's a common cultural meme that it's impolite to discuss religion and politics, because you might offend people if your beliefs are not be the same as theirs. My taking a dissenting view even now is likely seen as culturally insensitive. So... is it polite to subject non-Christians to lots of Christian ritual, symbolism, subjective morality, and so on, in public institutions that those non-Christians pay for with their tax dollars? It's a double standard... a deeply ingrained one. Those things are not necessary to me, and in most cases are unwanted. It's very impolite.



I think a comparative relgion class is a good idea. Why would it involve anything illegal? If you're going to compare the wide range of relgious beliefs should you leave out ones that offend people? You'd have none left to talk about. If someone is teaching early American history should they not mention the Salem witch hunts? It would require mentioning withcraft. There's a difference between talking about religion in the context of learning about it's influence on other things (history, sociology, archaeology, etc), and talking about religion for the sake of promoting it or participating in its rituals. Ironically, both you and the school board seem concerned that it might involve ritual practice. If it did would ritual practice of Satanism be okay if it didn't involve anything illegal? Who gets to decide what ritual relgious practice is appropriate? A Christmas party is a ritual religious practice is it not? The point is that discussion of religion in the context of learning is substantially different than the practice of a religion. One is entirely appropriate in public schools. The other is not.