Forum Censorship

To be honest, it sounds as if a great deal of you support forum censorship in some form or another. Advocating mentors to keep the forums "clean", putting people on ignore, requesting the Lindens monitor content.

All these are forms of censorship - no exceptions. Anytime you seek to squelch speech (broadly concieved) you are advocating censorship.

Is this what it has come to? Does the population of SL support censorship?

I especially don't want to hand over the job of handling the forums to the mentors, after what I have seen of mentors and helpers and the imperviousness of this institution to criticism of certain of its members.

We definitely don't want Stratics. We don't what board divas and forum harpies ingratiating themselves to the Lindens and using the forum to put down people who challenge them. We already have that, but it is only the Lindens prior commitment to free expression that spares us from their harsh hanging parties.

Leave the forums exactly as they are. Let them alone. Let those who don't like them not read them.

Hell No to Censorship. Let every man, woman, child, and beast speak their mind.

Power to the People!!

I'm opposed to forum censorship myself. I feel we are adults here (or we are supposed to be) and we can censor ourselves just fine.

Doesnt that somewhat depend on the extreme?

Should I answer 'no' because as a general rule I think they should leave posts for people to see, personal attacks and all, so they can judge for themselves?

Or should I answer 'yes' because I have seen some things that people have on occasion posted that are so utterly outrageous and hurtful and aimed at a particular individual, or revealing first life information and the like, that the Lindens have had no choice but to remove them in their entirety, and I supported that action?

The main problem I see with this Kris is that there is bias everywhere. I watch some people get slaughtered and the posts are never edited or remarked on. While with some it takes barely a "get stuffed" and the post is edited. I don't think it is the lindens playing favorites though. I think it is that some people get reported while others do not. So there is no level playing field. My opinion is either it ALL should get censored, or NONE of it should get censored. Since the first option doesn't seem to be working, I'd prefer to go with the latter.

This is a loaded question representing a particular agenda. By your definition, preventing users from posting child pornography or even perfectly legal advertisements for non-SL products and services would also be censorship.

So yes, I'm for "censorship" in the sense that I don't want the forums rendered unreadable by someone posting a million messages containing Goatse or Tubgirl. But really, the question is just retarded.

(Edited for typos.)

Censorship is Censorship, period.

ANYTIME you edit or prevent what someone has said you are censoring.

That is my opinion.

what a loaded question. by the way you mean "moderator" not "mentor".

There are plenty of internet forums that have decent moderation. A lot of this forum's regular posters wouldn't last a second on them.

There shouldn't be a need for censorship in the same way that there shouldn't be a need for any Linden to edit a post. However people do seem to need policing - even though we are all over 18.

Whether anyone would stoop to the level of posting goatse or tubgirl (or whatever is current) I don't know.

It's undisputable that some posters break the rules and get caught. Having no enforcement or rules would just make it worse imo.

I am generally opposed to censorship - but with no censorship comes personal responsibility.

Ok. In these *extreames* I can agree that they should be censored. But that lessens the rules of censorship quite a bit and leaves little room for misinterpretation, which I feel is something that happens often right now.

Actually I do agree that editing a user's post should not be allowed unless it contained illegal material or if it was designed to do things like mess up the page layout (e.g. a really large image). This is particularly stupid when others have already replied to the message, unless you delete all those replies too, which I think we can all agree is way too heavy handed.

The most effective policy I've seen is on one of the internet forums that many of you love to hate, where the offending user is banned (or, more recently, suspended) and a big USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST is added to the offending post, which is otherwise left intact except in the cases I listed above. That way everyone gets to know that something was done about it, and they get a clear example of what not to do in the forum.

Very simple, very effective, and strongly supported by the users.

The forums belong to the Linden company. As the owners of the forums the Linden company has the right to absolute control of the content of the posts as well as the right to deny access to anyone at any time for any reason of their choice. Use of the forums is not a part of the Second Life virtual reality environment and one is not entitled to use it by virtue of paying to use in the Second Life program.

The forums are provided as a courtesy of the Linden company, and they have a purpose, which is not to provide a platform for any Second Life member to say anything of their choice. The purpose of the Second Life forums, as stated in the Guidelines, is to educate about Second Life. Posts which do not further this goal have no proper place and are quite reasonably deleted, moved to off topic, edited, locked and otherwise acted upon in whatever way the Linden company wants.

The thread starter's definition of censorship is misleading, since it attempts to equate actions taken by a private party controlling their own property with society wide government imposed control of communication.

I don't like the idea of a ton of forum censorship although I also don't like seeing the garbage spewed here by certain individual/s of late who clearly have anger management problems and use the forums just to vent and lash out at anyone.

frankly, i think ll should close the web based forum and develop an inworld format. but then i'm silly enough to also believe that they should be showing us innovative ways to use the platform to process account management, auctions, partner invitations, estate purchases...

I am comfortable with Jeska's judgment in the name of keeping the forums a pleasant and civil place for discussion. I am also comfortable with being censored HERE as I know there are plenty of other internet outlets for uninhibited free speech but to be honest I don't need them. I can express every idea I need to express within Jeska's guidelines without feeling oppressed.

What are we censoring here? Personal attacks, Slander, player' s RL information, racial/sexist statements... This is what you guys are missing out on?? I recommend opening a Yahoo forum on SL where all these things are permitted and unregulated. Despite the unmitigated freedom you would enjoy there, I don't think it would be popular forum. And posting offensive material in a forum where nobody would be offended is no fun at all.

As someone who manages a busy message board on another website, I have to tell you that moderation is a necessity.

On every forum, there will always be a few people who cross the line and mount ugly personal attacks or who intentionally post things to offend others. If you allow this behavior, the decent people will flee and you will be left with nothing but hostility. If rules about behavior are strictly enforced, people will learn to communicate with respect.

There are very few message boards that do not have some kind of moderation. People will post things in anonymity that they would never dare say in front of others. Those who make racist remarks usually know better than to make them in public in the same way that most people know that sexually explicit conduct is inappropriate in public.

Personally, I think that the Lindens should step in a little quicker and more forcefully. The Lindens are far more generous with your posts than most of you realize.... Very few moderators would allow the degree of baiting and direct attacks that are a regular occurence on these boards.

Here are the rules posted on my boards:

* NO FLAME WARS! I will delete posts based on the following:

· Your post was aimed at harassing or intimidating another poster.

· It contained extremely offensive material, e.g., racial epithets, hostility, slurs, obscenities or inappropriate sexual imagery.

· You posted the same message many, many times--spamming.

I have teenagers reading my boards, so I restrict the sexual stuff, but it is much more appropriate on these boards...to a degree. Jokes about Schwanson and sheep are one thing. If some guy posts pictures of his RL penis, that should be deleted. My point is that it is a fine line sometimes and somebody has to make a judgment call. What you do in private, in your own mature sim club is one thing, what you say in a public forum is quite another.

I don't believe that any forum like this can exist without some limited form of censorship. We do not have complete freedom of speech in RL, as much as we like to shout that we do. There are limitations on speech for a variety of social and legal reasons. There was a point at which these forums were censored way too severely. It was one of the reasons I originally created the SLUniverse forums - it seemed that critical speech, including speech against LL was often being completely deleted - entire threads with sometimes hundreds of posts. Posts were edited to the point where it changed the context and did not just remove objectionable content, and it was just not a great situation.

In my own forums, I have had to deal with the issue a few times - in a very nasty fight between two players that ended up in my forums, an accusation was made about another player that I don't think anyone saw coming -it was not the run of the mill personal attack. When I discovered it, I immediately pulled the thread - but the person who the comment was made about asked it to be left intact, because it showed a lot more about the person posting it, and had no basis in truth. I ended up unhiding the thread and it proceeded.

Another situation arose with a controversial player who had been banned from the main forums but continued to post in mine. Someone who was unhappy this person was still posting sent me an email that I took as a serious threat. After seeking some advice (including contacting an attorney)I decided at that point it was not worth putting my RL safety in jeopardy over a forum thread. I removed the thread and banned the account - with an explanation of why I did so to both the person posting and to the other forum members.

In the end, a forum does require moderation to keep it from becoming a free for all. The higher the traffic, the more potential for chaos if some careful control is not put into place. I think that for the most part, the current approach to these forums is excellent. Jeska seems to have found her stride, and Robin steps in where necessary when things get really ugly. I do think there is an overreaction to personal attacks at times - we are adults and certainly can take someone speaking harshly to us. However, it is definitely a grey area and for the most part it seems to be handled well here. No one will ever be completely satisfied with the moderation of the forums. It is a necessary evil, like speed limits and traffic signals. Controls are put into place to keep things running smoothly - and mistakes will sometimes be made, but the effort is worthwhile.

Suggesting that you curb profanity and make your points without bashing people is not censorship. The Lindens are perfectly entitled to create and enforce rules on the forums. You are perfectly free to create your OWN resource where you can say whatever the hell you want about SL and LL, use the SL forums to tell people about it, and LL will in no way prevent you from doing it. Look at sluniverse.

What you are saying is that if a publisher of historical essays refuses to include your graphic pornography in the next edition, you are being censored. No. There are guidelines and acceptable content. You, however, are free to find a publisher of your kind of work, or create your own volume of pornography and sell it. Many people who read historical essays may even buy it. The historical essay publisher may even recommend you talk to some such organization, and might even be interested in reading your work. But none of this means they have to publish it. You don't curse in church, you don't abuse people in class, you don't throw food at other people in restaurants.

Regarding mentors:

- The mentors will never control the forums. But they are perfectly entitled, as is ANY resident, to suggest people try to make their points without flaming, excessive profanity, etc. YOU ARE FREE TO DISREGARD IT, as you would any resident.
- Mentors do not work for second life and will never be given, nor have ever been given, any authority exceeding that of a standard member. Any statement to the contrary is completely untrue.
- Mentors adopt the role because they enjoy being seen by players as a resource for SL knowledge and things to do. Any resident accepting the title for any other reason will probably not last. One of the things I do for a living is teach, so I fall into the role easily.
- Mentors are in fact standard residents with the additional expectation placed on them of consistently good in-world behavior and holding interesting events of one kind or another. It is HARDER to be a mentor than to be a standard resident. You would not believe how many times I have bitten my tongue in world because I am a Mentor.

Anybody who says anything different, that mentors have additional powers, that mentors get breaks on fees, that mentors control the forums, that mentors are on some kind of inner beltway and the lindens feed us info, simply have no idea what they are talking about.

You want to know more about it, find me in game, I've been a mentor for 2+ years. I work hard on my creations and let people use them generally for free because I am motivated to help people find something fun and different to do. I make zero profit off of residents. Don't believe me? Come to the Vorago, play all day 24/7 with your friends. You can win money and I will not charge you a Linden dime. You know how long I worked on that thing? Probably since long before you heard of SL. And just wait until I finish Terrain.

While we do attempt to read every single post, it is not always possible due to the significant amount of traffic the Second Life Forums receive.

You can help to keep the forums constructive and useful by utilizing the tools available to you through the forum software- including rating threads, ignoring individuals you do not agree with or reporting posts you feel violate the community standards, are posted in the wrong forum or which require some other type of review.

We do review all reported posts and take any action necessary, including editing, deleting, or moving a post/thread or taking any appropriate disciplinary action.

yeah, yeah. but DO YOU LIKE PIE????

Just say NO to censorship. It's bad, and your words could be next.

It's coming down to context for me.

I've seen the "DON'T CENSOR ME!" excuse used before on Forums, MANY times, and used to justify and defend the rationale behind personal attacks. That's just lame-o and oh-so-tired. RRL = Really Redundant Loop. Squealing out like a stuck pig trapped in the jaws of life doesn't change that, and we've got enough problems.

I used to believe more in the power of an individual's self-control. I did, really. I can certainly believe that some people possess this emotional restraint when it comes to behaving well towards other, but unfortunately, I've seen too much that convinces me of the contrary, and how some rampaging monkeys gotta have the tazer put to them. *zaaap*

I've seen this loop before. In such a discussion, you'll tend to have thoughtlines of the following:


-"it's free speech, let it go and the good stuff will rise to the top anyway"

-"no, the board will have an increasingly higher noise-to-signal ratio and people will leave"

-"I should be able to say what I want because this is a free country"

-"but these forums are owned by Linden Lab, and they are not the government"

-"I have a right to say what I want because it's all freedom of expression in the name of art"

-"you also have a right to be mindful of others and consider their rights when you are speaking"

-"you shouldn't repress what I say because I'll have to gush it forth sooner or later anyhow"

-"however, you should be better equipped to deal with yourself: maybe you have insecurities or issues you aren't dealing with so you're projecting it on others"


Slippery slope logic arguments ensue and wahhhhhhhhhhhh!

Dangit, is it really THAT hard to be nice -- at least civil -- to each other and discuss ideas without attacking people? And..

YES, time and time again, people will forget that this is a Forum overseen by a private party. Thanks a lot for that, Chuck!

Jeska must know what it's like to be a regular poster to a Forum as well as a moderator.

And again, I point to a certain ginormous Star Trek BBS as a sign of exemplary moderation:

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB30

Censorship?

Well heh, I've got a positive perspective on it. I call it:

SENSEORSHIP

'cuz in this context (as in, not referring to "the man keeping me down", it makes sense to me.

I just want to say that this is one of the strangest (mixed?) metaphors I've ever heard. It makes no sense to me at all, yet it is oddly compelling. This is meant as just an uncritical comment, as in: