How Teen and Main Grids will NOT be separate - and our objections are ignored

Isn't that relative? I mean, a kid can be a conscienscious driver and an irresponsible surfer, and vice versa.

No - it wouldn't work, even if the servers were sitting next to each other. Let's say that you create a script to call up a particularly 'adult' effect. You could copy the UUID (from the script in the main grid) and paste it into a copied script on the teen grid. Guess what - it won't work. The UUID used for the 'adult' effect will not be the same on the teen grid.

You can copy the UUID of every item in your inventory... but they won't work in the teen grid because it doesn't exist on that asset server. Since we won't be able to do a 'Find' on anyone in the teen grid or IM them or have any sort of contact, there is no way to transfer an item to them.

That's true.

Personally, I would rather have my kid be a little reckless on the internet and see a little skin than reckless on the road where they could cause injury to all the occupants in thier car and anyone else in the way.

For true... but at least the car has clear-cut consequences that are obvious; the Internet, on the other hand, is a new technology and the consequences to a person have not been thoroughly been examined. Plus the extended periods of time... etc ...

So while one is physically dangerous, the other is emotionally dangerous -- which is worse? Well, that's debatable. But I think there are plenty of people who fall into the category "decent driver, reckless on the 'Net"

You're right Hiro.. it is a relatively new technology, but I think there have been more than enough incidents to prove to a teen that it can be just as damaging physically and mentally as a wreckless driver.

Exactly my point.

I think for me, the saving grace with the internet is that I have control over access to it at home. I cannot have control when they are out driving around with friends.

Whats this obsession with UUID's Juro ?
Of course they wont be transferable. I never thought they would. That would be crazy.

You still misunderstand what I am saying.

I am not complaining that the transferability of assets will release a flood of filth.
I am expressing no opinion on the actual threat to kids from people or content, or how much damage might result.

I am complaining that LL has ignored our objections to this teen grid, and that they are MISLEADING US in their defensive arguments.

I object to everyone being MISLED.
Everyone seems to believe their reassurances that assets will not be transferable, when it simply ISN'T TRUE.

Forget whether these assets are dangerous or not. I am only arguing that they WILL ARRIVE. They cannot be prevented. Denying this is MISLEADING EVERYONE.

My objection is the MISLEADING, not the ARRIVING.

Once they arrive, they can be identified and removed (with huge effort), but they cannot be prevented from arriving. I think we are being further misled about the size and cost of the effort involved in this, and that after a bit it will get neglected, except for things that get reported.

That is my objection, my only objection relating to assets. That we are being misled. Many people think transferability of assets is bad. That's why LL are denying it will happen.

Actually, I think it'll be great, and look forward to learning about thriving commercial joint-ventures between teens and adults, each in their own respective grids. It'll be one good aspect.

I just can't stand all this misinformation about the non-transferability of assets (and therefore economic isolation). Its being used to skew the for/against arguments re the teen grid.

Technically, its rubbish. Unless you deny the teens the right to write scripts. Further, if you let them create poses and animations, you let all those in too. And since a script can make an object, those are transferable (at least in principle) as well. You see, its rubbish.

How? How will they make it over to the teen grid?

This is where we're having a little communication disconnect. I do not understand how assets will transfer from one grid to a separate grid if there is no common asset server.

Explain this, please.

Scripts can be copied and pasted through notepad. Textures can simply be uploaded. I think the point he's trying to make is that a person with a thriving business in the main grid could also have a thriving business on the teen grid simply by having a cooperating teen to use as a shill. (and if anyone has a teen I can borrow I'd greatly appreciate it!)

I got the script aspect, and the upload aspect... which I adressed earlier and the Lindens have said they will be monitoring uploads for adult material.

Obviously, scripts are more difficult to monitor due to the copy/paste factor, but scripts are, by themselves, not an issue.

Im curious how the 'skin' market will be in the teen grid. Will it be all fuzzy/blocky skins in the naughty bit areas like on the sims?

Bless you again Chip.
*hands bouquet*

OK.. after having my 2nd cup of coffee and re-reading Lindar's post twice, I think I get it.

It sounds like the objection is a lack of 100% certainty that objectionable materials will not find thier way into teen grid. Am I getting this right, or should I go for coffee #3?

It would probably be beneficial for LL to address some of the finer points in how this will all work. That might help alleviate some concerns, raise new ones, and answer many questions.

Isn't that how it is for all of us if we don't buy add-ons, Chris?

Oh ! I see - you mean the top bit ?
They'll probably go for no nipples and size limits. Pretty funny really.

Gee - Ive just realised - Since a skin is a texture, those will be transferrable too. Perhaps they'll remove that capability (and have to ban tattoo layers along with them ?).

Namsorre Daguerre's skins ( and maybe others) replace a file in the client. Difficult to stop that.

I think worries about adult content making it onto the teen grid is a tangential issue and not really a big concern. The bigger issue is adults being able to profit from the teen grid by getting a teen to sell their wares for them. If that's something LL isn't going to frown on then I'll be hiring myself some teens in the very near future

Personally I thought they should allow teens on the main grid but restrict their access to the R regions. Hiding the regions completely should be possible. a word filter should also be possible. No real way to restrict scripts. Only thing I can think of is a stricter ban policy for teens. But ll has never been eager to play police force.

My objection, Juro, is that we are being fed misinformation.

Assets will be substantially transferable. Dependent on which categories the kids are allowed to create. But LL keep saying the opposite, presumably to defend their position. Or maybe they just don't realize ?

I'm busting a gut here to try to warn you all, and them, what's actually going to happen.

Maybe it's so simple and easy that its difficult to grasp. People are looking for something clever or difficult.

For scripts its just cut-paste-give-cut-paste.

just a thought, but what role does the KIDS OWN PARENTS play? isnt it THEIR end duty to be aware of what their children are doing? LL has the right to do what ever they want with or without our permission. I agree that there are potential problems that "might" or "can" happen but you can't limit the magority of the teen populous because of what the minority might do. The parents of these kids need to pay attention to what games they are playing, and decide for themselves. I believe instead of adding a teen grid and doubling thier head-ache LL should devote more time to the main grid and its growing issues. Sadly in the end they will do what they feel is best for them, and we have to understand and accept that. Asking our opinion is just that, an opinion which sometimes helps guid their pre-concieved plans. LL is a buisness first, friend second.

but you have to say SL has evolved for the better even with bugs and glitches (which will be solved in due time) so lets cut them some slack.

Take use of the new vote system, lets get it tailored for maximum efficiency so we can better organize our group efforts. Only the votes will show how we really feel, and have the power to change anything.

I keep hearing both sides of the object and tansfer issue.

I cant get a straight story, which is it? are the grids seperate or slightly combined?

LL needs to keep the grids 100% seperate, they should even change the money and the grid name. If they dont, then the children will be exploited to the best of my ability.

I have some sympathy with your view Rickard. But it would probably mean a huge increase in griefing and misbehaviour and abuse reports. All the adults would have to retreat to the mature areas in self defence.

And there IS a danger of abuse when the adult can appear in any guise he wishes. You know how visual kids are.

It seems to me that in actual reality the only things the teen grid prevents (or might) are these:

1. Seeing each other, and meeting strangers and friends in 3-d space. This is not insignificant.
2. Talking in real time. But maybe this will be quickly overcome. How fast is Nexcom? Couldn't this technology link the worlds? If it can it will.
3. Rapid interchange of $. But this can only be prevented if teen $ cannot be exchanged with RL. If they can, a more or less instant transfer system can be quickly created with a bit of ingenuity, via for instance a father-son collaborating team.
4. Transfer of animations/poses could be prevented, but only by preventing teens creating them.
6 Transfer of some complex low-value objects might be too tedious to be worthwhile.
5. Inter grid commerce can be reduced initially by preventing SL-RL currency exchange, but once ppl start graduating from the teen grid with their money or assets, every one of them is a potential currency courier to get teen $ out. Putting value in would have to be by transfer of saleable assets if currency was banned. But this is ok so long as the takings can be repatriated via couriers.
Intergrid commerce cannot be prevented unless the graduate is stripped of everything, or almost. Surely that would ruin half the kids motivation ?

My conclusion is that the only really significant separations, without crippling the grid, are:

The prevention of 3-d meetings, and the extra constraints imposed by stronger (and more expensive) Linden policing.

Is it really worth the trouble ?

Trifen, if you get yourself a genuine junior partner, in my opinion you'll be able to trade happily away. I think there will soon be an off-grid forum with youngsters offering their services.

Don't use words like exploit, don't you think the kids will be desperate for content?
Your prices will have to start very low, but once they build up their assets a bit, it'll get profitable.

I'm almost sure it'll all be perfectly legal.

Even if LL try to ban it, all you have to do is disguise your products a bit. They can't prove your young partner is not a genius entrepreneur.

I don't say this to encourage bad behaviour. I think that if a teen grid is FORCED upon us, cross-grid commerce will be one of the few good results.

If you are reading all this, Lindens, please don't get cross with me for pointing it out so forcibly.

If you have transfer-prevention solutions I haven't thought of, we'd love to hear them.

I really think that technical factors make these developments inevitable and unpreventable unless you like the "crippling" alternatives.

Unless you have really thought this through, perhaps you need me , to point out that your are sowing the wind, but you may reap the whirlwind.

Of course, like many others, I'd like you to think again, and not do it.

Since theres little hope of that, lets all get our heads out of the sand, eh?
Discuss, explore, and face up to the implications together?

So lets say Chip has a teen (sorry Chip, just expanding on your post) and Chip decides to let his teen play Teen SL.. Chip already has a lucrative clothing business. So Chip decides that instead of paying his Teen an allowance weekly he will just set his teen up in business by allowing said Teen to upload his full clothing line and setting up shop.

But first Chip will have to sit down with the Teen's AV and show said Teen how to fashion the clothing on an AV, do a display and copy and paste the vendor script so the business is up and ready to go.

Now Chip can do one of a couple of things:

* Convert all the profit from the sales of his original clothing to cash and save it for said Teens College fund.

* Convert all the profit and give to said Teen so he doesnt have to shell out an allowance any longer

* Let said Teen have all the profits and spend as they wish.


Fast forward... two weeks later



Chip's Teen gets bored with Teen SL and decides not to play any longer. Chip decides that the money was nice for the college fund so he continues to upload and add new clothing under the Teen's AV name.

Or

What if Chip never had a Teen? What stops Chip from signing up his imaginary Teen? Or "borrowing" one or two or three?



Just wonderin..

hehe, I don't mind Drift That was exactly what I was getting at. Philip said in the town hall last night that currency in the teen grid is going to be handled the same way it is on the main grid, allowing it to be bought and sold by third parties. I certainly wouldn't mind another venue to sell my wares, but wouldn't that be terribly unfair to everyone else on the teen grid? I don't have any kids but I do have a nephew in the right age range. I'm not planning on doing any of this, but it raises some good issues. I was frankly quite surprised to hear that the teen grid economy isn't going to be self contained.

Oh, and the option I'd pick would be *pay teen a pittance and keep all the money for myself*