Tolerance - The T word topic of the day

Vade,

It was the protestant who crossed the line in the first place by making unwelcome statements about needing to save someone. That is forcing your religious beliefs upon someone else, which is not tolerance. Additionally, the religious justification for the continued oppression of gay people is sickening, and makes me ashamed as a Catholic and a hetereosexual male. Tolerance would be to let the gay person live his or her life without interference from some "well intentioned" Christian who just wants to save them from their poor sinful selves . Try looking in the mirror and saving thyself - we are only responsible for ourselves.

What would you have the gay person do? Sit there and let the person tell them all that is wrong with who they are? Ok, in that case I should have let the person who called me a nigger, spic and a monkey just go on by and not push back against that out of tolerance, since it was obviously his belief that non-white people are trash, and I need to respect that eh? I am sure the argument will be "but race is different". It's not - gay people are born that way, and no amount of bigotry in the name of religion is ever going to change that.

Agreed, Cristiano. I think the only thing that it's really okay to be intolerant of is intolerance itself.

It's a matter of perspective, actually.

Obviously you can always say that a Christian could choose to abandon the practice of religion. But belief isn't a choice. A person doesn't wake up one day and say, "Gee, I think I'm going to start believing in God.". They either believe in god, or they do not. A person may come to believe in god, or they may over time stop beliving in god, but the belief isn't a choice.

But this logic is exactly the same as a Christian telling a homosexual that they can stop being homosexual. Yes, they can stop doing the act, but that doesn't change who they fundamentaly are.

Being a Christian is not just going to Church and reading the bible. Those are just the trappings. The core of being a Christian (Or a Muslim, or whatever) is your belief in something.

Belief is not a choice. It just is.

Yes, both here in the forums and in the RW. Last fall, in this forum, I was told that anything I had to say WRT Christianity is automatically invalidated based on my sexual orientation. From a RW perspective, I don't want to reveal too much about my personal life, but suffice it to say that I have been formally shunned, and all former Christian affiliations have been irreconciably broken. On top of that, I am involved in a custody battle where my sexual orientation is the primary point of division. Homosexuals are, truly, modern-day lepers in the minds of many Christians. That I have not totally renounced my faith may amaze some, but my relationship with God is far richer and deeper than these acts of oppression.

PS: Here is an interesting position paper on the topic:

http://www.mccaustin.com/homoandbible.htm

Of course there are things which shouldn't be tolerated. Anyone trying to tell me how to live my life can pretty much expect a negative response, the style and severity of which will be dictated by how annoying they are.

Two things I have never understood.

-->Why any religion feels the need to go out and drum up business. If it's so wonderful, people will find you.


-->Why anyone care who any consenting adult sleeps with, unless of course you want to sleep with them.. then it's a point of information.

BTW, if you're a guy, hitting on a male missionary is an almost certain way to get them to go away. Works beautifully for my husband.

Surreal

I'm not even gonna get involved in this thread.. Heheheeh

Nice pic... doesn't mention sexual preference though.

okay --let's examine this from a different perspective.

A homosexual and an xtian meet.

The homosexual finds the xtian to be incredibly attractive and would like to kiss him full on the mouth and he does so.

The xtian objects of course.

"How dare you kiss me full on the mouth --we are both men! Men should not kiss each other full on the mouth --and the tongue was particularly upsetting!!!! gross!!!!"

The xtian is so put off by the homosexual's unwanted advances that he begins taunting him.

Is the xtian in his right to do so?

I personally see zero difference between this an an unwanted xtian finding my soul attractive enough to be "saved". They are both intrusive unwanted advances.

That's wise, since last time around, you are the person Paolo was referring to that told him his views did not matter as a gay person.

I think the sticking point here is that the definition of tolerance is different from one person to the next. For one person that may be staying out of exchanges about sexual orientation, politics, religion, etc, altogether. Some may feel comfy with such discourse among friends and/or family only. For the next, it may not matter as much who they may be discussing such topics in a way such as Chip has suggested; "We can talk about our differences with civility". It should be noted that like each individual's definition of "tolerance" varies, so do their definitions of what "civility" means. Which is why I tend to simply avoid such topics unless I know the person fairly well.

We should also recognize that what any given individual considers "being forced" will vary as well. Personally, if Joe Blow off the street comes up to me (which he has) and starts spouting religion, politics, sexual preference, etc. rhetoric at me, I am going to view this as being forced to listen to this person. Others may engage that person and have no qualms about doing so.

You may say; "You aren't being forced, you can walk away at any time or ask them to stop."

As for the latter, it rarely works, believe me, I have tried it, and many times it tends to make them more insistent. As for the former, am I not then being forced to change my day, my plans, to avoid the person?

Intolerance cannot be tolerated.

I just thought I'd restate that lovely oxymoronic rule.

There needs to be some sort of threshold between the exercise of free expression and engaging in intolerant behavior, and I think that has to do with power. If your actions are simply designed to assert your own beliefs and self-determinism, that's fine. If your actions stray over into any effort to control the other person's beliefs or practices, that's intolerance.

The power issue becomes important in a couple of ways. First there's just blatantly outlawing or attacking. That's obvious intolerance. The other is creating a climate of fear or shame. That's more the issue here. If neither party has any power to intimidate the other, don't worry about it. It's just an argument or a difference of belief. But if one is able to get the other into a position of risk of harm through their words, that crosses the line. That's the test as far as I'm concerned: are you able to or trying to get the other person's actions controlled?

These Pretzels are making me thirsty...

Alby, how dare you! Gay people's opinion matters. Sheesh!!

*squeals* Alby is restraining himself! He has inhibition!

"Anybody who tells you money is the root of all evil doesn't fucking have any. "
-Jim Young (Ben Affleck - Boiler Room)

"Look at this grin, ear to ear, baby!!!"

-Jim Young, Boiler Room

I totally agree. A proselytizer pulls out all stops in the attempt to convert. I was once asked how I felt knowing I was "going to hell" because I didnt participate in a pre meal prayer, and this was at the table during a formal dinner!

Lianne,

I still love you, do you feel the same?

Even though i'm a hippy treehugger feminist liberal?

Oh and i'm getting married saturday

Yes. Who ya marrying? Lucky guy

Congrats!

~Ulrika~

"Just fine, thanks. Pass the corn"

Seems like it was an A and B conversation and you should C your way out of it... Apparently they weren't disccusing these issues with you, so who are you to judge them?