New Welcome Area in Watershed: DO NOT SELL PLOTS!

well its not that a big club would scare off a new player in the same sim... it would be the 0.25 time dilation and 2 fps 'slideshow view' that would scare off the new player, in the *WELCOME* area the last thing we need is to show someone all the extreme technical limits of the system which are very easy for one callous land owner to more than push.

i'm not talking about their bottom line, jarod is. i'm talking about philip's dream of the virtual economy of second life being a serious force in the world market. that requires people buying into the fact that this software's primary function is to provide a virtual commerce interface.

they will support, for the time being, whatever they have to support to advertise, recruit and retain paying members. but in the end, the goal is to build something that will eventually swirl into a useful business tool. what better way to promote that than to indroduce newbies to it right up front so they gain the right impression of what they're supposed to be doing here as soon as they step off the pad.

Prime land right by the telehub & welcome area .. heh wow .. tempting from a commercal point of view.

But no. Lindens please dont do it.

In this case, what is good for the world outweighs what is good for my pocketbook. So while yeah ... it is a juicy area .. I have to agree and say no. Dont do it. Not at the welcome area.... it just isn't right & as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there is a great potental for it being counterproductive to Second Life in general. The lag alone is enough reason to be like Nancy and "Just Say No".

-AP

Sim FPS *could* be a problem. But again its what happens in SL. Been to Dore recently? I can't anymore the lag kills me.. But I can go to anywhere in the popular places and I'm fine. The sim FPS would only be a problem while the club was having an event or whatever. And if so there would be enough people around to explain, one would hope.

But the lag in Dore is far worse than in any of the club sims I've been to.

I believe you're mistaken in assuming that Philip wants the virtual economy to become Second Life's sole "raison d'etre".

At least that's the impression I get from Philip's blog.

Not that I don't think the economy isn't important too...on the whole, I love having one. I believe malls and clubs have their place and are even good things when they're well done (I have to confess: I'm wallflowering in the Gravity Space Station right now and I usualy dislike clubs as a general rule.) I just think there's better things that could be done with the Hidden Lakes area and I'm helping out a bunch of other people who agree.

I Agree with this totally!!
Some good ideas have been proposed already, which are great. Why not give this land to the Mentor group, so all mentors (who are there to help the newbies) can contribute, and make something to help greet the new people into SL. Anyone who isn't a mentor, but wanted to contribute, could just give their item to a mentor.

Failing that, some sort of tutorial/information would be a perfect fit.

Another fan of Gravity? Join the... er... club.

Well, I've been here since February, and the only thing I can recall ever having bought is a pair of FTech sneakers. I can't say I've ever sold anything, neither.

That said... I have to agree, selling land right next to a welcome area is kinda a whoops waiting to happen.

Thank you for all the posts regarding this topic.

First things first, I want to clear up what the Hidden Lakes Telehub is and what we intend to do with it. It was designed originally to be a spill-off welcome area, a place where on heavy trial days we can divert people from the Morris/Ahern WA to alleviate congestion. Some of you may remember us doing this in the past with the Plum/Lime WA.

Beyond it's use as a spill-off WA we built it to possibly be an additional WA when the amount of people coming in on a daily basis would warrant two welcome areas. We consider it infrastructure like the roads. It has been noted in the forums that the roads are underused or not used at all. Many have said this is because vehicles in SL are difficult to drive. That may be true now but won't be forever and when robust suspension arrives (don't ask ) we will all be glad that there are plenty of roads to drive on. The same is true with the Hidden Lakes TH. It may not be used as a WA this week or even this year but one day when we need two we will be glad that it is already built and a community is thriving around it.

As for the plots that surround the Hidden Lakes TH and near by sims, I am interested in hearing more from this group. Assuming it will be a WA one day, performance is an issue and your comments about lag are noted. Is there a way that the integrity of the area can be maintained but under resident supervision?

The Lindens want player controlled governance over Second Life!!!!

*runs around in dizzy circles*

*slaps kris around the head*

OI.... if you get banned so help me girl.. I will hunt you down and spank you till your ass is blue...

and you WON'T like it

Well, I think the Lindens are looking to one day make the whole world player run. It's extremely obvious that that is Philip's intention for the world someday. Giving us power in small doses is one way of passing power on. Land tools are just the beginning. I believe that one day, LL will begin to bring up a grid, seperate from the world of this Second Life, that they will begin to figure out a way to make a player run, player controlled world. One where all the Lindens will need to do is set up the servers and let us run wild. Anyone who doesn't want player run governments can stay in the SL of today, and do as they please, while a set of SL'ers who are interested in true virtual worlds will be able to play. The Lindens just need to get settled in financially enough to make this come true. Which is why I think the need to boost SL economy, why they are letting the economy run it's course so they can work on the second world. And as the technology gets better, then the tools will get better, and as the tools get better, the more features and the more power the Lindens will begin to hand over.

So as to stay on topic though, the land around that telehub, in my opinion, should stay as pristine as possible. Keep the building and the player made objects and scripts to a limit to keep the sim running as smooth as possible. That'll give people the best first impression of SL and allow people to still have access to that telehub land. Perhaps have a contest for the land immediatly surrounding the land, that players can vote on. Something that will give new players a taste of SL , but extremely controlled. I suggest a group of people, who all trust each other and are trusted by the Lindens, to set up a project surrounding the WA land, or perhaps a few groups. The land could be owned by the Lindens for the time being, while the project is being completed, and when the Lindens feel the land can be moderated well enough, hand it over to the players, give them the tools to police the project and ensure that it runs well.

Look at us over in Slate, (not to toot our own horn here) but we've been in control of most of the sim since pretty much Beta. Bob Bunderfield has been there for a long time, and the sim is doing great. We've stuck with a pretty settled theme, and rarely had sim performance issues. Just recently we started making it on the popular lists because of the poker tables we host there, and we are close to finishing our newest project. Slate has been completely player controlled, and we've owned over 90 percent of the sim, and pretty consistently too, with little help from the lindens (all they own is the river land).

Another good example of players coming together is the Neverland project. It's amazing what Baccara and her team has done there, and the sims aren't that laggy either. Given the right tools, and everyone on the same page, the world can be a great place, with some awesome, sim friendly builds.

Excellent post, Brad

You were stuck there?

Was something wrong with Dore? I don't understand?

I may not be 'in the group' but here is my insight:

Regarding the area surrounding the Waterhead Welcome Area, your desire to maintain the integrity of the area under resident supervision is a folly. As we have seen with Luskwood and and the other 'managed' sim areas, once Linden support is minimized or withdrawn the area falls apart. As the land is freely available to anyone with the desire and means to purchase it, the people who do have an interest in maintaing the theme of an area do not have the tools to police it from those who choose to not abide by the covenants due to ignorance, malice or greed.

The other scenario would be to have a 'gated community' where access to the land ownership is restricted to certain people. This is common on estate sims and can be found in the main grid. This requires the involvement of one or more individuals who are willing to bankroll a significant portion of the tier necessary to survive the natural ebb and flow of membership.

I wish the "Friends of the Forest" group much luck as I have been down that route. Back when the Mahulu sim opened with its volcano and waterfalls, I rallied some people to try and protect one area in the same way FotF is attempting to do at Waterhead. We were successful to a certain degree. Our area surrounded a waterway just below the volcano, which when we bought was all set to 'unsafe' and which I foolishly thought would mean 'protected'. All that 'unsafe' land now has a mall teetering precariously on its steep mountainside, making the most pragmatic, if not scenic, use of its area. While I can chalk that up to newbie ignorance, it has still cost me, both in high price paid for the land and the loss of respect from the others who I had convinced to do likewise. I should rename Exile Cascades to Lukas' Folly because that's certainly what it turned out to be.

Well ryan you might want to talk to lee about lusk estates. We build a resident created community charter there and have instituded a co-op land holding group (the lusk estates land trust) to help make sure everyone gets good access, and the sim continues to run well.

I'll paste a copy of the lusk estates land charter here:



LUSK ESTATES
=========
Welcome to Lusk Estates! This portion of Lusk is a controlled building community. A small suburbian area divided into cozy parcels, Lusk is the perfect place to build your home if you're looking for a nice, quiet region without the stores and looming towers you might find building elsewhere.

LAND GUIDELINES
===========
* You may only buy and own one contiguous land space, where contiguous space is defined by either one land parcel, or 2 adjacent parcels
* Groups owning land in Lusk Estates may own multiple plots, but may only have two parcels per member, no alts.
* Land must not be subdivided. This will be enforced by the Lindens
* You must have been in SL for more than 7 days before joining the estates ie: you must be out of your trial period of SL
* Please read about the Lusk Estates Land Trust

ZONING GUIDELINES
=============
* No Terraforming
* All builds must be residential/non commercial in nature This means no plots are to be left empty for increased prim allotment of another build.
* Consummate to previous point, commercial builds are not permitted within Lusk Estates. This means that stores, danceclubs, casinos, 'homes with lots of things left out for sale', builds with attention getting signs, etc may be asked to leave.
* Maximum height of builds is 20m
* You must build within your own property lines.
* Flashing textures, excessive particles, loud and looping sounds, or any script that puts unnecessary strain on the region such as land or avatar scanning will not be allowed. If asked by your neighbors, you should be considerate in removing these distractions.
R) Reccomendation: While not required, residents are encouraged to talk with other estates owners and to build within established themes and styles.

SUMMARY:
This region is located within a PG-Rated territory. All applicable rules, laws and community standards apply. People who have been found in violation of one of these guidelines may be asked by any other estates landowners to alter their builds to conform to them . Continued failure to conform to the estates guidelines may result in Linden action.

LUSK ESTATES LAND TRUST
=================
The Lusk Estates Land Trust plays the important role of supplying land and enforcing the zoning standards in the estates. Think of them like a town council. The Trust does not own all of Lusk Estates; it was established in June 2004 as part of a restoration of the estates, which at the time had fallen into a state of disrepair.

Of the land it does own, The Trust will provide for free use to residents. Should there be a vacant parcel, you can contact a Trust Officer, who will invite you to join a group. Upon joining the group, you must allocate land tier towards the group for the size of the land parcel you are using. You Are then free to build within the object limits of the parcel you bought.

If you are selling land in the Estate, you are encouraged to sell to the Land Trust, so they can make it available in the manner described above. The Land Trust is prepared to pay the Median market price for land per http://www.secondlife.com/land/


* If you own more than one parcel, you MUST develop your second parcel. please see the estates for examples.
* Land may ONLY be used for residential purposes. NO Land Scanners

_____________________

i don't know if it will be 100% directly appliccable... but a defacto linden charter, as well as formation and maintenance of a land-owning co-op group may go a long way to keeping the sim(s) nice and clean, and running well

And don't forget to scroll up and read my post again. The Slate community is one of the oldest communities, and we have had no Linden funding, had minimal Linden land ownership in our sim (the river) and have kept the area beautiful. It's all about getting a group of people together who have ideas and trust each other. We have group land, with residents splitting the cost of the land, and people working to keep the land clean and nice. Just because a big group doesn't have Linden funding doesn't mean they'll end up crashing and burning. If you can find a group of friends with similar interests, and trust each other, then there shouldn't be any problems, and in fact, the Lindens probably wouldn't even have to be around except to restore the servers.

Hi Brad. I know Kenichi and Bob and it's been good seeing the development of Slate, although I've arrived "late in the game", so to speak. Grand opening comes soon, eh? That will be sweet.

What's wrong with selling the land? You can't keep things pristine for a few folks. If people want clubs and malls, give them what they want. If you want a beautiful park land, then buy some private sims and make it.

Sadly now.. if they do sell the plots there will be a greater number of people that know there is a welcome area going there and will most likely buy up the plots. Also now.. the land there will cost even more.

Great post, Brad.... we'd love to have somebody with your ideas and insight in Friends of the Forest... The whole idea behind us trying to get some of the land in that area protected, either as Linden-protected land or as group-owned and managed by a preservation-minded group like ourselves, is that it won't be available for anyone to buy. We want to keep at least some of that land pristine and beautiful permanently, not allow it to ever be sold and developed.

I'd be interested in hearing more about what a group of developers like Bedazzled could do with a place like that, while keeping with the 'unspoiled nature' theme.... what they've all done so far is brilliant. Wonder if any of them would be interested in getting involved in some way?

And Ryan Linden, thanks so much for expressing interest! I'll be happy to give you the transcripts of our first two meetings, if you're interested, to let you see what we've been discussing and what ideas we've come up with so far.... our first hope, I think, would be to have part of the area be Linden-protected land, so that it couldn't ever be privately sold and developed, but have the land be overseen (and the maintenance fees paid or raised) by a land group like ourselves. (FotF.) If that isn't possible, the next option would be for the land to be group owned and managed by a group of like-minded people, as Brad was discussing. (I've been to Slate-- it's an amazingly pretty area.)

In an ideal world, I'd love to see the sims all around Waterhead left pristine, as a buffer zone of sorts and as a park for everyone to come and play in, but I realize that's probably not realistic. Friends of the Forest is working on ideas for how to develop and sustain land while keeping it free of big ugly commercial builds-- park/outdoorsy type activities that all of SL could enjoy. If anyone would like to read the notes from our first two meetings, please IM me in world.... new members, ideas, and enthusiasm are welcome.

Eltee, are you seeking any help for your compulsive obsessive timer-lag disorder? You realise extreme geekiness can also scare off new players?

I would love to be able to help out the FotF anyway I can. Unfortunatly, most of my Tier is set up for Slate right now (as me and Bob are the two main land holders), so giving up land isn't too much of an option for me. I have a few ideas as to what we can do with the land so as to ensure that it stays as user-friendly as possible, and still give people what they want in the area. I could write up a proposal as to what my ideas are, which pretty much boils down to a mini SL area. We can take a bunch of the ideas that have been placed in SL already, a mall, a club, some artistic builds, a few houses, but have the residents keep tabs on it to ensure that it doesn't become too laggy. Of course we'd keep it within a theme build. The mall would have just a few vendors, which we could come up with some way of rotating the vendors so everyone can have a shot at selling there (since it would be prime selling land). All the vendors would have to be PG, and we'd have strict rules as to how items can be sold, and things like that. And we could set up a mini club, call it club newbie or something so that they get a feel for the other clubs in SL, but of course, that would also be watched closely to ensure that it doesn't put a big hit on the server. I think that with a close eye on the things going on in that area, we could give new residents a taste of SL, without scaring them off with the thought of Lag and such. If anyone would like to help me write up this proposal, send me a PM, and we'll disscus what could possibly done with the area so as to make everyone happy.

Thanks for asking for our input, Ryan.

I'd recommend allowing certain groups to apply for the plots. I'd give one big plot to the mentors, one big plot to the live helpers, and see what they can do. Next in line for plots would be charity groups, such as VERTU, and finally, non-profits.

Groups could apply for the plots in a similar fashion to what is being proposed for major projects like Neverland.

Perhaps also have a "Destination Station" where people could apply to have their non-profit destinations have an "instant teleport" feature set up. In other words, "click here for neverland", "click here for Lusk Wood", "click here for Mesede Skate Park."

Just some ideas.

Regards,

-Flip

Great ideas Flip, the Mentors group is an obvious first one for inclusion - and the LiveHelpers (each wave in turn) can be allowed to maintain a library of useful tutorials etc located there perhaps. If there is to be content there for folk to have, I would rather see that content being free as the hoverbikes etc are in Ahern.

Whichever groups are involved, perhaps issue a default set of textures inkeeping with the telehub, so that we offer a consistent area for newbies to explore rather than a mish mash of styles. A 'no buildings higher than treetop level' rule would go a long way to maintaining the lovely views too.


Jai