you don't like what you're reading in the forums?

the proper response to a bad post isn't another bad post.
the proper response is a good post, or no post.

you don't like what you're reading?
don't read it. or start threads about stuff you want to read.
it's your responsibility to choose what you read and what you don't read. take responsibility for your own actions, your own words, and what you choose to do (or read).

threads getting derailed?
then post a thread to the thread that is on topic.
or start a new thread continueing from before the derailment.

i find this whole "let's change the forums so a few people we don't want to hear from can be controlled" movement very distasteful.

yes, they are a problem in the signal to noise ratio in the forums. but finding socially acceptable methods of silencing them in a "public" forum is an attempt at censorship. oh sure someone's going to say "it's not censorship because no one has the power to prevent anyone from posting." but the the intent is to silence people. the form of silencing may vary, but the problem really is the intent. that intention to silence does more longterm damage to free speech than any objectionable thing a person can say.

"freedom of speech" has privileges, responsibilities, and costs. the privileges are obvious - most notably, the ability to say what you want, when you want, and how you want. but it also comes with responsbilities - most prominentaly among them, the responsibility to choose what you will read and write, and the responsibility to be courteous. but there is a cost, for the privilege saying what you want anytime you want and anyway you want, other people get to say what they want when they want and how they want - even if you don't want to hear them. you don't get free speech for free.

already i can hear people saying the forums don't have free speech, which is true, but what freedom there is within the limits of the forums come with the similar privileges, responsibilities, and costs.

the situation at hand that so many are reacting to is not of one person's making; it takes two to tango. trying to limit the speech of a few people in the shortterm will have very detrimental effects over the longterm as what freedom of speech in the forums that exits continues to erode. many will think "those rules won't affect me." but they will, they will apply to everyone.

at least that's how i feel about it. ymmv.

"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

I agree. If anything, create a seperate forum for Rants, but don't impose more censorship into the forums, and don't campaign to silence people that you don't care for, or that you don't agree with. The moderators already have a heavy hand at times, and violations of the ToS are already covered.

A sterile, pretty, cautious forum will not only be boring, but will lose alot of it's worth as a sounding board for problems, hot topics, heated discussions and resolutions.

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you don't want to argue, don't. If you dislike the way a person posts, don't read theirs.

It's like the moral minority trying to tell me what I can watch on my tv, or my vcr.

Well, said

If you don't like people telling lies - then speak the truth.

Bravo!

In other words, "don't feed the trolls". Well said StoneSelf

Everything StoneSelf Karuna said.

coco

I salute the spirit of your post, StoneSelf, but I must respectfully disagree with what I've quoted. It's alarmist and the implication is that the responsibility lies more with those who believe they have a right to expect civility than with those who are most disruptive and least respectful. No one is trying to use censorship or draconian tactics to silence dissent. People are merely saying that if you can't be civil and respectful then we're not going to listen to you. In other words, putting the responsibility where it belongs... with each individual instead of everyone else.

This is my first time posting in forums. However, before the assumption is made that I just hopped on the first thread I found and decided to blather all over it, know that I have been reading for a couple of weeks.

Just had a couple of things to say on topics of forums and forum reform etc. etc.:

I have been on bbses, forums, online communities etc. since 1995. The "dysfunctions" of the Second Life forums are nothing new. In fact, I have yet to be on a forum or email group or online game etc etc that did not have these problems at some point or another. I have seen different variations of most of the posts and the problems people have with other posters for the last ten years.

That said, there really is only one solution which I have found. I thought StoneSelf Karuna said it very very well, but I just feel the need to have it in my own words. *shrugs*, maybe some will see it as redundant. I feel that StoneSelf hit the democracy/freedom of expression individual responsibilities point very well. However, I guess I wanted to be more specific on applying it to online communities. The solution is the individual. I'll go into more detail (and I promise, I often do post very short and to the point posts, so please do not think that everytime a post comes from me it will be over a page long *grin*)

1) Use your ignore button for people who are upsetting you so much that you can't even breathe. If you can't or won't, it might be time to explore the reason why. This is self awareness. For example, I know, no matter how much someone pisses me off, that I am not going to press that ignore button. Why? Because I'm inherently nosy like that.

If you decide not to use the ignore button, here are things I have learned the past few years.

1) Remember, you, and only you are in control of your emotions and reactions. If you let someone push your buttons, they're going to KEEP pushing them. This isn't just a don't feed the troll post, because that insinuates totally ignoring whomever you have decided is the "troll". It is entirely possible and necessary sometimes to respond to spewing, foaming at the mouth with stupidity posts. However, keep your cool, respond in a rational, logical manner and either the person will devolve into a sputtering idiot and disappear totally, or they'll take a deep breath themselves and you might be able to have something at least resembling a discussion.

2) If you have issues with other posters, argue with them, debate with them, but by god, don't keep insulting them in non directed, non related posts. This causes the very unravelling of civility that you're accusing them of. If you think your problem with the person is on topic, then by all means discuss it, just don't make snide comments and snarky asides, that does nothing to solve anything.

3) Remember, people will go off topic. I have yet to see any type of communication involving a group of people that doesn't go off topic LOL...why would forums be any different?

Ultimately, it boils down to this. YOU are in control. Of yourself, of whether you read posts or not, whether you read forums or not, whether you ignore someone or not, whether you choose to get into with them etc. etc. Don't contribute to the problem and then turn around and try to say it's only one person or six people. Responsibility.

Heh. I promise, I'm a lot more fun usually *grin*.

Kat

I'm civil and respectful, Cristiano, but sharp and penetrating in my comments. People who shout FUCK YOU at me in-game and on the forums are NOT respectful.

Your notion of what is "civil" only extends to those who you agree with, or with only slight differences. A major disagreement, you can't handle.

I point out to people complaining about Tringo that they themselves haven't stirred their stumps to make any events ever that would be more interesting -- and that's the last straw -- the truth -- for someone like Lordfly and he starts a cascade of shunning.

Shunning is something people did in the Middle Ages...maybe they did it in the 16th of 17th centuries still in the US, but it is a practice that can only occur in some tiny provincial setting uninformed by any notions of tolerance.

I agree with what Stoneself said.

I've never understood, in a forum that has headlines -- and only one headline -- of threads, why people who don't like what is said, or think a thread is derailed, don't just start a new one, or letting a thread die and get pushed down to the next page.

They can't take the high ground, they have to take the low ground.

I've not understood that either. Its like they are determined to be .... something ... to get the last word? to be make an childish response that gets the most applause? I don't know. But the choices they make are very illuminating.

Suggestions:

1. Never call anyone a name. Ever.

2. Don't expect people to admit defeat. If you need a litmus test for "winning", you will hardly ever win. That just makes you a loser. And some people can't be persuaded no matter what, so just be happy to get through to as many as you can and don't worry about the rest.

3. Don't brag about having said something first, or argue about who'se idea something was. Instead feel proud if a seed that you planted has sprouted.

4. Don't try to discredit people with completely irrelevant, backhanded, unflattering jabs. That only makes everyone resent you.

5. Don't lower youself to an attacker's level. Most people are smart enough to know that a scurrilous attack is a sign of weakness. Let attackers do themselves in.

Try it. You'll like it.

Buster

P.S. for you polite people, I know I know. Duh. Sorry to kindergarten you.

I don't consider talking about the advantages of a slashdot-like system an attempt at stifling particular voices. Personally, I think /. works well, allowing you to "drill down" as your time and interest permits.

Exploring if any structural changes might make the forums more civil was a worthy exercise, even if the net result is to return to the maxim that individual restraint and discretion is the real answer.

Wellz I find a lot of cool stuff in the SL Forums and am still learning loads, which is why I'm still here. The negative stuff I really can't relate to -- hey, I had enuff of that before -- but I'm digging for gold, diamonds, and assorted watermelony trinkets in spades.

Makes life... Second Life... happy!

There is treasure to be found in the forums, thats for sure. I don't like getting involved in a lot of the discussions, simply because I suck at arguing for or against something. But there are great points and thought-provoking threads here that I still enjoy reading. Basically, I agree with what StoneSelf said.

sure the the disruptive people have responsibility. but one can't attend the responsibility of other people - one can only attend one's own responsibilities.

so there is plenty of responsibility to go around. trying to get the disruptive elements to take responsibility is much harder than getting the reasonable people to come back to their senses.

while i disagree in general, my point wasn't addressed at censorship or draconian tactics so much as the intention to silence people.

but the talk (and action) didn't stop there.

there are claims that slashdot can be gamed. an issue i haven't heard addressed.

would it be worthwhile to put a post like this at the top of the general forum as a sticky post?

you're not. and maybe if you figured that out, things would go better for you.

Actually, there is a Guidelines menu option at the top of the screen. I just offered some ideas that are a little more specific.

Good ideas get burried when people are angry or resentful of the source. Nobody will drink from a tainted well.

Buster

You lack self-awareness.

specificity might be worthwhile.

A year ago I hoped to see ppl say "hey I notice what is going on here and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth about these forums, here are some suggestions and observations I have". Some tried but quicly they were shunned, insulted, belitted, and pushed out. So when I saw this topic come up I waited before posting to see if; it would quickly be derailed, cast aside over what would liked to of had the reader believe as the "majority rule/majority agreement"

As much as I agree with the suggestions in this thread and as much as I love them I must also admit it is extreamly difficult to take this advice when being called a "cunt, a fucking whore, or a cold heartless bitch" Said by those who claim they are saying it under protecion of their right to free speach. Or worse the "good" of the forums.

This topic is a very interesting one, since I have been here for a long long time (eee gads) I also know the history of some of these posters. They agree with the topic dejour if it makes them look good. They tend to grab a pitchfork or a rope and grab the newest poster who sticks to their guns on any given topic. "If we can't change their opinion lets make them out to be an idiot, a drug user, a person with rl mental issues".

I have seen it many many times and this only thing that changes is my my gag reflex gets weaker. Honest.

Before you think this is a negative reponce to this thread think again. I highly applaud all those who posted with a clear thought and a pure heart to this forum and I am disapointed in those who would have you believe they are on the same track. They are not. I think the only way the forums will change is with topics like this. I see no need to call names, belittle, degrade, or bring any rl issues into any argument into the sl forums.

A year ago seeing these types of posts would of saved me a lot of tears and heartache, I am glad I stuck around them long enough to see those words written. I applaud you for standing up and saying what you believe. I applaud you for seeking positive change. The one thing the SL forums have going for them is the knowledge that we are all adults. I say we all start acting like it, but even if some don't its nice to read that others feel the way I do.

Thank you for this topic.

Cat

Well if _I_ was king of the forums, I would delete this post, and 99% of the other posts that lack the smallest shred of relevant SL info, and tell y'all to go use SLUniverse. Everyone has a different interpretation of what the "noise" in signal->noise means.

Using ignore is the only way to take control of your experience here. Beyond all the ideological, philosophical, or political bantering about 'what should be done', this is the bottom line.