Clearing the Air about me, Lindens, and a bunch of other stuff

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

My original point is moot, but someting tells me that a new one is on the horizon, and it's just packed with meaty goodness.

There were a couple things I wanted to respond to here, since you were so kind as to spell them out for us.

1) Why can't people just be heterosexual? You may want to ask God about that one if you ever end up there someday, not sure of the odds on that one though. Homosexuality has existed as long as humanity has existed. It has been feared and reviled as so many things are that are different, but in spite of so may efforts it has not gone away. Why is someone else's lifestyle so threatening to your own? Does it restrict your ability to love who you want, to work where you want, to live where you want? No. I've never understood as a heterosexual male myself what the hell some heterosexuals are so threatened by. No one gave us approval to be who we are, we are just that way. We have to right to grant or deny our approval to anyone else. No one should have to be quiet about their lifestyle. We have had to hear about your wife, your children, your grandchildren - what about the gay people who are sick of you flaunting your heterosexuality? Too bad you say. Exactly! You have as much of a right as they do to be who they are.

2) Your kid can pray in school, though if you are so concerned about the religious freedom of your child in school, why don't you sell one of those SUVs and send them to a private religious school. Public schools are not there for teaching religion. They are there to educate all people, regardless of race or religion. While your child can certainly pray there, no child should have to be forced to take part in a school led prayer activity that differs from the faith they have. You would be in an uproar if your children had to pray to Allah in school. As long as it's that warm fuzzy Christianity though, you are fine with pushing it on anyone else. That is hypocrisy, and that is why prayer does not exist in public, tax funded schools.

3) The whole one nation under God thing has to do with # 2 as well. It was not part of the original pledge of allegiance anyway, it was added by Congress to separate American school kids from those god hating Communists. A more important question is why do we force our children to pledge allegiance like little robots? It's kind of creepy actually.

4) Regarding INS/the borders. Again, you hypocrite. You would not be here if those borders had not been open. It was fine for them to be open for your family to emigrate here, but now they should be shut and others should be denied that chance? Perhaps we should retroactively send you back then. Should there be immigration controls and security? Certainly. Dissolve INS altogether and just lock the doors? That is laughable and typical from you.

5) The "Little Susie" question is so anachronistic that I won't respond to it except to laugh at the silliness of it.

6) The reason people on death row are not being put to death is because of the horricifically flawed criminal justice system that exists in the US. I would rather none of them be put to death than to have one innocent man die for a crime he did not commit. The sad part is, that is far too common. Texas has the worst track record of any state for putting people to death that evidence eventually cleared. I am kind of on the fence about th death penalty myself. Not crazy about the idea, but then if someone murdered someone I loved I know I would want that person dead. I just would certainly want to make certain it was the right person, and so often in our criminal justice system, that is just not the case.

Although I am not happy with some aspects of society, I am encouraged by the progress that is being made on a lot of fronts. While you view yourself as having made all the wrong choices because society has turned out differently than you hoped, I guess I should say thank you for your part in society turning out just as it has. I have a wonderful life here, and it is not filled with regret or hatred, but instead love, happiness, wealth, and promise. Thank you Christopher for fighting for a country that although is not mine of birth, is the one I love and am proud to live in. As much as I dislike your views, I would never disrepect the sacrifice you did make.

Fighting for your country is honorable, and so for that you do have some respect from me. It does seem however that you were only fighting for people who were like you, and shared your ideals. You weren't fighting for all Americans, just the ones who looked like and thought like you. No wonder you are so disappointed and disillusioned now. Every day, less and less people look or think like you, because America continues to evolve, and you have stayed in one place. Sorry that you feel left behind by those changes.

Cristiano

Hey, I volunteer to push the button.

One of the things meant by the 'filthiness of the natives' was their religious practices at the time. These involved throwing their children live in to burning fires in sacrifice to their gods. Molech I think, or maybe it was Ba'al. I don't recall.

SO!
This is going well!
I think. I hope.
Thanks for the well worded post Cristano. I got to get this post out of my system and then I will go back and respond to yours.

I went through a good 2 hours of discussion with some of my friends last night and I came away with this....

Yep! This is evolution. I dont have to like it per se, but it is a form of evolution.

For instance, there were SO many things in the old testement that were pretty cut and dried as being THE way to go when it came to everyday life. Now these things are wrong, outlawed, banned or frowned upon. You could own slaves, have more than one wife, and a whole slew of things that were commonplace and accepted.
Now those things are illegal.
Okay so lets look at a few things that were considered illegal in the old testement, masturbation, sex during menstruation, hell even eating the cloven hooved animal!
Now, what of those things seems so wrong?

There appears to be a juxtaposition of a LOT of things based on how our knowledge base as a species has increased.
And there isnt even enough time here to go into how drasticly things changed from the old to the new testement!

Okay so here is the point I walked away from this long conversation with my friends last night...
"what if?"

I remember my grandmother telling me of the day she was 8 years old and out in the field picking cotton. Thats just the way her world worked at the time. Poor kids in rural Alabama didnt go to school much past the point of learning to read and write. They were needed in the fields. Anyway from out of nowhere an airplane flew overhead. NONE OF THESE BACKWOODS HILLBILLIES HAD EVER HEARD OF SUCH A THING! At which point they all fell flat on their faces and began praying to God. To them, this was the "rapture" and this was obviously Jesus on his throne coming to carry them all home!
You may laugh at the scene, but I am pretty sure you can understand where their mindset was. Not to mention what a disapointment it must have been to find out that it was just an airplane.

I have read where all through history there have been people trying to figure out exactly WHEN the end of the world is gonna come. So far no one has been right.
According to the evolution theory it wont happen unless we do it to ourselves. No omnipotent being will tire of our antics and bring about the end of the world.

BUT!

So... "what if?"... what if there is no "end of the world" for the next 15 thousand or so years? DESPITE the fact that every generation I know of has been filled with preachers that spouted, "We are living in the end times friends" from every pulpit, in every church, in every state?

With all of the old things that were thought wrong, now being ok, and the old ok things now being wrong.. what if this progression continues?
Deep down inside is everyone hoping for some utopian society? Some sort of perfect balance?
Where there is no war? Where we all get along? Where no one has any issue with anyone on any level whatsoever?
Do we all secretly harbor the thoughts of the Miss America contestant that always says she would wish for world peace?

If this is the case, are we all headed for "singularity"?
A single way of life? A life in which no one person is any different than the other? Where we all believe and accept the exact same things as just... a way of life?

If you can accept that man has been on this planet for a mere few thousand years, can you also accept we will be here for many thousands of years more and that we as a species will continue this "evolution" of what is right and what is wrong and someday arrive at some kind of middle ground where we are all one big happy family?
Where there are no extremist view points like my own at one end of the spectrum and no Darwins at the other and we all find some common ground and meet in the middle?

That is ONE BIG ASSED "what if?" to me right now.

Point by point with Cristano.

First let me say that I can only assume you are young. A LOT younger than I am. It shows in how you take what I grew up on and spit it into the wind as if it is nothing more than trivial drivel. But I want to address your counterpoints here.
I read all of yours, so bear with me on mine, k?



Im gonna cut right to the chase here ...
Their lifestyle choice is by no means threatening to my own.
It does not restrict my ability to love who I want.
But about those Gays that are sick of me flaunting my heterosexuality? How am I supposed to respond to such a ludicrous assertion? Look we differ on this Gay thing. Its simple. Lets agree to disagree. I come from a completely different generation that you do. My value system is completely different. You think their lifestyle is ok, I think its deplorable. But with regard to not flaunting it in the worlds face... there were people we presumed were gay in our community when I was younger. I guess you could say they stayed in the cloest or whatever. And to be honest I much preferred it that way.
And one more thing on the subject, I am sick and freaking tired of having "Gayness" and the presumption that I HAVE to accept it crammed down my gullet!
I dont like mayonaise, I dont eat it.
I dont like tomatoes, I dont eat them.
If you tried to force the acceptance of either into my life you'd get just as big of a fight! Why is that so hard to understand?



ok ok ok ok...
Lets drop this down to a level you *might* understand.
I didnt say anything about WHO to pray to did I?
When I was a kid the teacher NEVER led us in prayer to ANY deity. What they did was offer a moment of silence at the beginning of the school day for you to pray to WHOEVER you choose. Hell there could have been Satanic Cult children in the next seat over praying to Lucifer for all I knew! Nor did I care! What I cared about was that we were given the time and respect to ask our deity of choice for a decent day in school.
Oh and yeah there was this one kid that stepped outside class because his father taught him there was no such thing as ANY higher power to pray to in the first place. He could have just sat there quietly and scribbled, but NO his ass of a father forced the child to be singled out and removed from class during "A MOMENT OF SILENCE AND RESPECT FOR THOSE THAT WISHED TO PRAY"? SO no we didnt single the kid out, his father did. And it was because of jerks like this that my kids had to meet OFF school grounds every morning for their devotional.




If you think its creepy to teach children patriotism with the pledge of allegiance in class, you are doing one of two things:
a) Trying to piss me off to the point that I remove my profanity and nice guy filter and get all over you like a cheap suit or
b) You honestly do not appreciate this country and are unwilling to pledge your allegiance to it.
Which is it?



Hypocrite? Really?
Ok... so YOU would be gone WAY before I would.
I guess THAT is what pisses you off?
Traced back as far as possible an englishman By the name of Kent, fell in love with and took as a wife a Hopi Indian Woman and began bearing children who then intermingled with many other nationalities.
But guess what, SHE WAS HERE WAY BEFORE ANY OF THE REST. So I will stick to that 1/100th original American Blood and claim my American heritage from that point on.

But I didnt say send you back to wherever you came from.
I just said STOP LETTING IN ANY OTHERS!
The idiot neighbor of mine has got 4 guys working the ranch at the other end of my road, not a friggin ONE of them is legal and not a one of the speaks friggin english!
Maybe you went through the proper channels to get here? I dont know. But let me further expand on my shutting down the borders proposal.
When you get a visitors pass to the US, you also get a ankle bracelet, that way you cant just slip off into the population at large and never go home. Same with Student Visas.
And we should stop rounding them up at the US/Mexican Border too! Shoot em on sight when you catch them crossing illegally!! Bet that would stop 99% of them from even daring to cross illegally. Right now, if caught, they just spend our tax dollars to ship them back. Did you know there are several cases of the SAME person being caught, shipped back and caught again in the same WEEK?!?! There are illegals that have been caught and sent back, caught and sent back, caught and sent back FOR TEN FREAKING YEARS! They could have gone the legal route and become a naturalized citizen in that amount of time!
The system is flawed. The system is failing. And you want to call me a hypocrite for wanting a better solution? Sure! Lets just leave it as is and find a new underground border crossing tunnel every month where TONS of cocaine are brought into this country. *sigh* Bottom Line, if we locked down our borders ten years ago, I would wager that the events of 9/11 wouldnt have taken place. I dont thin ki need to say anything else on THAT topic.



What would you know?
You werent even a ZYGOTE during this period in America!
There was a time when fornication and sexual promiscuity was actually FROWNED on in this country. Why we STOPPED is beyond me. Or do you laugh and consider this view "silliness" because you are yet another in a LONG line of "that aint my husband! thats just my babys Daddy"



Look, you want to make an omelette? You gotta break some eggs. Sure there have been wrongfully executed individuals. I am NOT denying that. However, what is a Death Row sentance teaching these idiot kids we have today? NOTHING!
And I'll give you even one MORE thing to hate me for...
In my opinion there is NO SUCH THING AS PRISONERS RIGHTS! You do the crime? You do the time! And time is not some friggin Hilton either! You get a 4x8 foot cell with a door, no bars. Bread and water 3 times a day! No phone calls. No mail. No "Rec Rooms", No TV. NO NOTHING! You are a CRIMINAL AND SHOULD BE TREATED AS SUCH!
Call it inhumane and scream it to the top of your lungs! I DO NOT CARE! I would wager good money on the fact that if MY version of prison was implemented... a LOT less people would end up there.



*I hang my head in silence*
Aww shucks Cristano. Twernt nothing.
*back on task*
Cristano, more than anything I want to reiterate that I am just disapointed. Im not unhappy. I do not live a hate filled life. Course I got old buddies that would call me a dickhead, but they are dickheads too
But it is these same old and dear friends that feel a lot of the same ways I do. Some are even WORSE! I could put 5 particular ones of the group together in the same room with you as a fly on the wall and you would SWEAR that *I* was the SANE one in the bunch!



Well at least I have done SOMETHING right in your eyes



No Sir. You are wrong.
I was not fighting for the others that looked like me or thought like me. I was fighting for the gays to have the right to be gay in this country. Just stop shoving it up my ass already. (pardon the pun)
I was fighting for women to be respected in this country!
Just stop whining already about how you can do anything I can do BETTER! You cant! Some things? INFINATELY better. Other things? Not a iceballs chance in hell. But not ANYTHING.
I was fighting for peoples rights to worship whoever, whereever and whenever they choose.
But stop calling *my* God a falicy and *my* Bible a fairy tale!
Dont make fun of the fact that I wholeheartedly believe in something that you dismiss out of hand without thought or regard to how it affects me.
I was fighting truth! Not the lies that the liberal media spins on a daily basis!

But most of all Cristano, I was fighting for freedom.
Thats right... F R E E D O M!
The freedom for me, my children, and my childrens children to go, do, and be whatever the hell they wanted to be in this great country. And everyone else for that matter!

And my family... some of them have gone, done, and become things I may disapprove of... but they know their old man, and they DONT shove it up my ass that they are different than I would have chosen for them to turn out.
And yet... they are different but it doesnt stop me from loving them as long as they keep their freaking pie hole slammed shut about it how their views are BETTER than mine!

heh, my house, my rules.
Sometimes I just wish the internet was my house too.
thats all.

Wow Christopher...it was nice to actually read something from you that was not filled with the word fuck every other sentence, or insulting. I knew there was intelligence and reasoning behind there, you just have shown it so rarely that I thought I was overestimating you. Granted, you did not spell my name right one time, but what the hell. I enjoyed reading your post and was not offput by it at all.

Your points are all well taken, and I do see them, and you are entitled to every one of them. Just a couple of things, since we could continue to go point to point ad naseum and we will never agree.

No one is saying you have to like homosexuality or tomatoes. However, as I posted earlier in this thread, it is the way you express your dislike that crosses the line and causes you to be labeled a hatemonger. There is nothing saying that any of us have to like each other, race, sexual orientation, fat, thin, ugly, whatever. We do need to respect each other though, and that is what it boils down to. I do recognize that you come from a totally different generation, and that affects your views on homosexuality.

On the suggestion you posed for immigration, I will counter with an example for you to consider, based upon my family's current situation. I have a 17 year old cousin from Venezuela who has won a full scholarship to Stanford and will be starting there in the fall. He is one of the brightest people I have ever met, and well deserving of that opportunity. He is in the US now on a student visa, as he spent his senior year of high school at a Ft. Lauderdale college prep school to help him adjust to life here. Would you really suggest that he should be forced to wear an ankle bracelet like a criminal on house arrest? If one of your grand children won a scholarship to Oxford or the University of Paris, would you want them tracked like a common criminal? You have to look at the human side of what you are asking for. I am all for stricter immigration controls. I am not however for closing the borders altogether and stopping immigration, which is what you seemed to be asking for.

You asked if I was bothered that I would be sent back first? No. I am proud to be Venezuelan. Unfortunately, Venezuela is currently under the grips of a dangerously autocratic leader, much like the US is with George Bush. Returning to Venezuela would be stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I was only bothered by the hypocrisy of your family having been able to come to the US, but you wanting to deny that to others. I came to the US through legal channels, and my family did as well. Two years ago when things started to go to hell in Venezuela, I pulled every legal string I could and called on every favor and connection that I have to get them here, and I have no shame in that.

On the comment about "little susie", what I found so laughable is the concept that someone should be sent away for becoming pregnant, like sweeping the problem under the rug. Do you also send away the man responsible for the blessed act? No. It was typical in that period of American life to try to sweep problems under the rug, instead of dealing with the cause of them. Even with all of the information we have about sex now, about AIDS, condoms in schools, etc.., teen pregnancy rates have actually dropped in the US. More and more teenagers are waiting to lose their virginity because even in our sex craved society, having the right information given to them helps them to make choices for themselves. Keeping them in the dark about things forces them to make uninformed choices with often horrible consequences.

I admit, the double standard in the US when it comes to sex has always amazed me. We use sex to sell everything, yet sex is a dirty shameful thing. We have such a schizophrenic view of sex that it is no wonder we are plagued with the sexual problems we have as a society. When Janet Jackson displaying her breast is a grave offense, we definitely have a problem. There are more obscene things that occur every day of the week, including what is now happening in Iraq. I would take seeing Janet Jackson's very lovely breast to dead soldiers any day of the week.

Thank you again for your response Christopher, it was the most enlightening thing you have posted, and shows a level of humanity the rest of your posts have sorely lacked.

Cristiano

CristIano... sorry bout that
I could have sworn it was Cristano. I got old eyes, sue me.


When you look at the big picture, how on earth can a full scholorship student to Stanford of all places even remotely compare with the thousands of "Illegals"?

Which, by the way, pretty soon it will be considered hate speech to refer to them as "Illegals". Now we get to deal with yet ANOTHER political correctness term...
"Undocumented Aliens"

All of the sudden I feel like John Stossel on 20/20!
But instead of saying, "Gimme a Break", I'll stick with...


WTF?!?!?

But back to the family issue you have at hand... so many come here on Student Visas, get their educations and then slip quietly off into society and live and work here LONG after their student visa expired.
I personally know of one guy that FINALLY got caught and deported TWENTY TWO years after his tourist Visa had expired! How? We caught him red handed on a breaking and entering. 22 years after he quietly slipped off into society he finally gets caught. Guess what? He admitted that for the past 22 years he had supported himself AND his family by... yep! You guessed it....
Burglery.

THOSE are the cases I am talking about. THOSE are the reasons for implementing my idea of tracking the aliens on whatever kind of visa the enterred on.

As far as the mexico border? I still say that a zero tolorance policy and shoot on sight rule would STOP the floodgate on that particular artery that is hemorraging us to death.

Chris, I encourage you to continue posting in the vein you have been in this last post. Sure, I might not agree with you on some of the points, but since it's not a hate filled filth spewing rant now, there are points I agree with hidden here and there.

If you don't offend me by telling me to 'get in my place', you'd find that I agree, men and women are naturally better at different things, but if the 6'2'' muscle bound woman wants to be a fireman or soldier, don't discount her because of her sex. (Guns being the great equalizer and all)

If you don't scream and swear at me for being a country destroying dyke, you'll find that I'm fine with people being proud of heterosexuality and I'm even fine with people believing I'm going to hell. Just don't shout it at my kids or deny me a legal contract because of it.

If you don't call me a fucktard liberal pansy.. well, you probably get the picture by now...

I find the -way- in which you have previously voiced your opinions offensive, and as a result, I reply in kind. Voice your opinions without the name calling, swearing, and hate-mongering and I too will reply without it.

I did *NOT* read the entire thread.. a 'no no' in some peoples books, but whatever.

Chris, I have two things to say to you, and please take them in the fashion they were meant to be taken.

1. It must suck being you. (Explanation follows)
2. Your baiting is tiring. Why would you start this thread?

Explanation for #1:

It must suck to be you Chris. Don't read into that the wrong way, I am empathetic to your situation.

If, indeed, what you've told us about you is true, then I really do feel for you Chris. You've served your country the way that you were brought up to believe was that of an upstanding gentleman. You're old and surrounded by a few generations of younger people who will grow to inherit this great country that you served, and that must be a bitch to bear.

These young people have a completely different mentality than you do Chris. Your brain is old. Your ideals are old. Time is forcing you and others like you to relenquish your ideals to the new majority. I can see where that would suck.

Chris, even though I find you objectionable, I do appreciate the contribution you made to our country. Not just any contribution, but seriously putting your life on the line for all of us. Thank you Chris. Your sacrafice allows me the freedom to pursue my own dreams. It allows all of us to demand the freedoms you fought for. Again, I say Thank you.

Chris, the reason I single you out, of all others, is you and people who share your mentality, are a direct threat to my dreams: equality for all Americans, not just some. The same freedoms you put your life on the line for is what I am demanding from our government. Oddly, one of the very people that fought to preserve freedom in this country for all Americans is trying to keep freedom from some of us.

I know your religious faith keeps you from supporting my rights as a gay American, but it *is* my right to fight for equal treatment from our government. That's what bothers me, personally, most about you. You may not view it as such, but from my point of view, you use your faith as a tool to try to take my rights away.

I will, from now on, take your opinion and hatred for gays for what its worth: nothing more than cries for attention from an old dog whose moral ideals are vaporizing in front of his very eyes.

Remember Chris, it ends with: ... And Freedom for All

Then stop saying things like "there are no atheists in foxholes." Not only is it completely untrue, it's also incredibly disrespectful to the thousands of atheists who've served just like you did, many of whom gave their lives in the process. Atheists and non-Christians are not polite about your religion because we've had it shoved down our throats day in and day out since the day we were born. Think of how you feel about having to be confronted with homosexuality and then multiply it by a thousand... that's how it feels to be an atheist in this country. You think you have rage? Try hearing the president of your country (Bush Sr. in 1984) saying "I do not believe that atheists can be considered as citizens nor patriots." Imagine the uproar if instead of atheists he had said blacks. Try hearing the current Attorney General say that "we have no king but Jesus," while describling the United States. Try hearing "this country was founded on Christianity" ad nauseum by people too stupid or lazy to bother to learn history. If you grew up having to endure that kind of blatant bigotry from Christians you might be just a little pissed off and no longer willing to just bend over and take it. I can respect Christians, but I cannot and will not respect Christianity. And until the day Christians stop trying to force their religion and lifestyle down my throat I will not be silent. I have no problem with you believing wholeheartedly in the Christian god, but when you use it as a justification to repress, judge, demean, and silence those who do not share your belief that's when the politeness stops.

Why would you be proud of being white? Is it some accomplishment you worked hard to achieve?

Why would you be proud of being male? Weren't you born that way?

Why would you be proud of being straight? Was it a conscious decision on your part to choose your attraction for females over your equal attraction for males?

None of these are accomplishments, but accidents of birth. I've never understood why being born a particular way filled some with pride. It's nothing you've done to be proud of.

As for the rest, be proud if you feel they're accomplishments. No one can stop you. It sounds more like approval you're after than the right to be proud.

So being proud of being black is meaningless also?

Warning: Religious ThreadJack!



I didn't go look it up, but if memory serves, all these quotes are from the old testament. I believe that Darwin's original question was "Didn't Jesus say to love Everyone?" The old tesatment does in fact say all this stuff, but Jesus didn't. He does in fact encourage his followers to love one another, but he also was advocating a kind of overthrowing of a lot of traditional Jewish law, principally of which was the rigid and totalitarian manner in which his culture had "access" to God. So the bible might say this, but Jesus said something very different (I'm too lazy to quote you an example but I will if you like). And Chris is right that the old testament and the new testament are completely different not only in their purposes, but also in their perspectives. If you add all the "banned" books that were are one time or another part of the new tesatment tradition over history, you have something even more radically different (i.e. the gnostics, etc.).

The reason why I bring this up is that it seems to me a lot of evangelical Christians confound the old and new tesatments and don't make any distinction, almost as if all of it is "Jesus's message." But it isn't all Jesus's message, and if the center of Christianity is to follow Jesus's example, then a good deal of the "law" put down in the old testament would not be followed blindly because of the fact that Jesus was presenting, by his message and his presence, an overthrow of much of that very law. Therefore, it seems important to me to point out that there's this historical disconnect when it comes to the Bible in a lot of people's thinking. There's no context offered. There's just quotes thrown around. But a quote with no context -- namely that the old tesatment is really a story about how a previously polythesitic culture transformed into a monothesitic culture, what the world was like at that time, etc. And what it meant to the people who wrote it down, for that matter. Without that any acknowledgement of all that context, then bible ends up getting sort of belittled, imho. It doesn't get the respect it really deserves, because people aren't actually thinking about the book and it's origins, but instead using it in a random fashion as a kind of "guide book" to life, which can, if read in that manner, support pretty much any notion you get in your head. No matter what it is. And to reduce a religion to a guidebook, well, that's pretty disrespectful, imho. It doesn't respect the beauty of human thought, at all. Nor the beauty of human's relationship to the diety of their particular choice.

I'm not accusing anyone in particular of doing this, I'm just saying, if we're going to talk religion, let us not conflate time and space and who said what to who.

As far as everything else goes, I go with what all the major religious thinkers have said at one time or another: you must learn to love yourself and your family and your neighbors . The operative words there is learn. It's a journey and some of us just have a longer row to how than others.

And I don't believe that story about the airplane for one minute, Chris . I know too many hillbillies who took too many outsiders on too many snipe hunts to figure them to be that foolish .

Zana

Great Post Zana. One thing that has always amazed me is how Christians and Muslims look at each other like they're from different planets, yet they share basically the same religion, based on the same stories about the same people, including Jesus. That the three major religions all share common stories and characters and yet have become so far removed from one another pretty well shows that god doesn't have much of a future in the instruction manual writing business.

I've only recently started to become truly aware of how much the three Abrahamic religions share. When it comes to Jesus, the Qu'ran contains stories of Jesus as a child that also appear in the infancy gospel of Thomas that didn't make the official canon (Jesus making sparrows out of clay and bringing them to life), and probably lots more that I don't know about yet. People seem oblivious to the fact that the gospels were oral traditions before they were written down. I'm not sure how anyone can be a literalist or a fundamentalist in any of them, given that.

Many strict fundamental christians believe that this is because of a leadership dispute between two brothers. One was given land, the other was not. Oh, and also because of the "judgment" that God put on Isreal and its people that they should never know peace. Both things are in the Old Testament, but I can't remember where to find it at the moment. And of course I"m not direct quoting.

Another reason that strict fundamental christians use the whole bible when referencing what "Jesus" says is because they belive Jesus is not only the son of god, but also god himself in human form. Thus if the stuff in the old testament is spoken from God, and God is Jesus, then yes, Jesus said all of those things as well. The Bible is also thought to be God as well. Since the Bible is "The Word" and "The Word" is God as well.


Not stating what I believe or anything, just stating the viewpoints of some ultra fundamental Christians. I still can't believe I haven't blocked most of these teachings from my head. What a horrid year in my life. Long story though.

Yes.

No athiets in foxholes? Bullshit... sorry.

Was an athiest when I put on the green, was an athiest when I took it off... And when I ran onto a transport plane with people taking pot shots and me and my buddies we didn't thank god when we took off - we thanked the pilot.

Chip -- Old vs New Testimate , very true... I'd further say that if you look at the different testimates they reflect a change in culture - and a lot of things make a kind of sence when you put them in the context of time:

Leviticus (one of my faves - and oft quoted by extremists) speaks of enslaving the people of other nations and the dimensions of the instruments you can beat them with.. read again in context it's saying 'don't enslave your own people' and how to punish your slaves and others in a 'reasonable' (again for that time) manner.

Of course later on the new testimates reflected in the gospels become the canon of the times - no more multiple wives and burning your children...

What is rather funny and a bit of an eyebrow raiser - is that the person pointing out the changes in the testimates, which in turn reflect the changing of cultures over time, is also angry about the changing of the culture over time

(also - side note, has also quoted the old testimate in past posts as an argument against homosexuality -- little late to cry foul now I guess).

Siggy

While the Bible may be the word of God, "The Word" refers specifically to Jesus.

well now see I have had to swallow some cold hard facts concerning the differences between what I was taught in church as a kid and what I have come to realize as the truth as an adult.

In church I was taught that every single word in the bible was the word of God. In the sense that God was speaking through the writers of the different books of the bible.

Now, in my later years, I have come to realize the truth of the matter is more closely akin to words written about God, Godly things, Godly events, etc. Not exactly the same thing is it?

Also, there are TONS of other "scriptures" that were purposefully left OUT of the bible. There are so many other "books" out there that could have been included in the bible cannon that it staggers the mind.

I have read several accounts of Jesus as a child. If you will notice the account of Jesus jumps from a small child to adulthood and there is nothing in any bible concerning this missing period of time.

However, there are other "accounts" that tell of Jesus as a child, and miracles attributed to him both Good AND Bad. Apparently as a small child, according to a couple of these accounts, Jesus took the life of a couple of people.

But these accounts were not included in the "official" cannon, I suppose for the obvious reasons of not having the saviour having ever sinned. I was taught that Jesus was perfect and without sin, and you cant very well have a book in the bible that points out the contrary.

I suppose we are lucky that Revelation made it into the Bible at all! It was a hotly contested book to be included as well.

Also, it bears noting I think that there are even more "books" turning up every few years or so.
But it seems as though the Bible is now a "Locked" Topic. Nothing more can be added to or taken away from it.
*shrug*
Now I am just more convinced that the bible was written BY men ABOUT God more than anything. No matter how many times a preacher tells me that this is the life manual.

Further study has shown me that almost all of the religeous texts from different faiths all teach about the same thing in one form or another... The Bible, The Koran, and others..
"Be nice to each other"

Right Deviln, and since Jesus is God, then "The Word" is also God. The point I was trying to make was that in ultra fundamental christian circles, it is believed that The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost are all One being in three seperate forms. So any reference to God, is also a reference to Jesus. And vice versa.

Again, just trying to explain why some would say the entire Bible is the word of Jesus.

Christopher,

I understand why you would be pissed. You risked your very life because you were told that winning whichever war you fought in would preserve "The American Way of Life" as you understood at that time. And, clearly, that way of life hasn't been preserved. I'd be pissed, too!

But the problem is that "we" (the liberal, multi-culti, here and queer, bilingual, "politically correct", unsaved, civilians who are causing you such tsuris) aren't the ones who told you that your service would preserve the "values" you fought for. There have been progressive movements in this country for as long as it has existed, and we've said all along we mean to tople that particular status quo.

Hell, depending on which war you fought in, we might even have waved brightly painted signs in your face telling you that you weren't fighting for what they were telling you you were fighting for!

It seems to me you shouldn't be angry with us, who are simply doing what we've said all along we intended to do: work to make the culture more inclusive, better care takers of the needy, and to deprivelage the white middle class in favor of a more balanced society.

No, it seems to me you should be angry at the people who told you that your service to your country guaranteed that the status quo would remain in place. In the kindest way of seeing it, they seriously overpromised! They didn't have the power to make any promises for what the country would be in the future - that power has always been with the people. At worst, they out and out lied - sending you off to fight a battle that really had nothing to do with how life in the US would progress while doing very little at home to protect that which you held dear. I'd be pretty seriously angry at THEM, if I were you!

And maybe at others who hold the same values as you do, who had the power once upon a time and didn't keep it. "We" have always fought against prejudice, racism, sexism, etc... And we've come from behind to achieve what few gains we've made. "You" began from a position of power and have still not managed to stop us. Is it our fault for winning the cultural war, or yours for losing it?

It would be an odd fight if we were walk away from victory at the request of the vanquished. A very odd fight indeed. And surely, as an old soldier, you can see that.

Respectfully,
B

Facts about Deterrence and the Death Penalty

This site makes almost no sense if you skim it fast. "Why would killing people for killing people make people want to kill people."

Intolerance breeds itself, as does hatred. All emotions cause similar emotions in other people unless they are disturbed mentally. I truly believe in auras and karma. The effect that one person has is profound. You may not see it because the effect is so widespread and slow.

At least that is what I think. Maybe the only thing to do is nuke the human race, if you are going to kill anyone may as well kill everyone. We will always be at conflict and we will always make mistakes. With mental abnormality and ignorance in our world, there is no peace. No peace is a fact of life it seems. We would have to give up freedom and let someone force us to peace. I do not think anyone is capable of that without abusing the privilege. I guess that’s all I wanted to say.


Attitudes are contagious… is yours worth catching?

Leonn,

If you hadn't "skimmed it fast" you probably would have seen that it contains a lot of statistical data showing that the death penalty is not a deterance to capital offenses. Basically, that it doesn't work to stop violent crime.

Hope that helps!

B