Clearing the Air about me, Lindens, and a bunch of other stuff

I was talking to the big kahuna Linden the other day and he said in passing something that didnt quite hit me until this morning. He pointed out when I offer an opinion on something, instead of asking for clarification of what I said, a lot of people try to find the most assinine thing they can respond with and hit submit.
This morning it hit me... I tend to do the same thing.
A LOT!

So lets test the true metal of the tolorance in this community and especially this forum, shall we?

If it is clear that you bothered to read and consider all of the points in a particular post or thread just by virtue of your reply, then are we not having a discussion, a debate, an exchange of ideas?
Conversly, if it is readily apparent that you didnt read the entire post or thread, why bother responding in the first place?
And does this not stand as a good indicator as to why threads fall into a state of degeneration and loads of name calling?

I'll even be the sacrfical lamb here and go first:

Contray to what you may have read on other posts, I harbor no ill will towards any of you as a singled out resident of SecondLife.

The question is...
"Why do so many people on the forums choose to hold ill will towards me as a singled out resident of SecondLife? Can you not disagree with many people in the world who hold similar views as I do without harboring ill will towards me as a person?"

I don't think most of them were upset with WHAT you said, as how you said it Chris. Well maybe what you said too.

So it sounds to me Dev that your analysis works out to something along the lines of you can despise an entire group of people for whatever reason you choose... as long as you dont use the more commonly used identifiers?
Example:
You can be anti gay as long and express your views, just as long as you dont use any of the "no no" words?

Is this what you are saying?

Its okay to be anti anything as long as you dont use words and terms that would pigeonhole you into an opposite group of "hate mongerers"?

When did this world become so obsessed with words?
I seriously wonder why so many other races, creeds, religions and groups are ALLOWED to show their solidarity and support as openly as they choose, but me being a straight white male.... different story altogether.

I cant be proud I am white, that makes me a racist.
I cant be proud I am male, that makes a woman hater.
I cant be proud I am straight, that makes me homophobic.
I cant be proud I am a veteran, that makes me a baby killer.
I cant be proud I served as a police officer, that makes me a civil rights violator and oppressor.
I cant be proud I am an American, that opens me up to an even LARGER race card.
I cant be proud I am a conservative, that makes me anti liberal.
I cant support the death penalty, that too makes me a murderer, not to mention that I am supposedly playing "God".
I cant be anti abortion, that puts me against womens rights.
Hell I cant even be proud I am a twice retired indiviual in my golden years, that means I hate the jobless.
I cant be proud I own a decent home, I could be sharing it with some homeless people.
I cant be proud I can afford 2 SUVs, that makes me a "War For Oil Supporter", not to mention that it makes me anti environment!

WHAT THE FUCK?!??!?!
Do you have to be some formerly or currently downtrodden minority in order to have fucking PRIDE these days?

I got one fucknut giving me shit about loving guns!
Another calling my religion a farce!
And even more that BECAUSE of my opinions and views, they pigeonhole me as some white supremist, woman hating asshole living in a fucking ramshacke shack in the hills, hoarding weapons, masturbating to my copy of "The Turner Diaries". and planning to overthrow the fucking government!

I will say this much, just because I have a sense of pride in this category or that, it DOES NOT automatically mean I am ANTI ANYTHING!

Well, one of the main problems with forums in the first place is that sometimes it's hard to tell how that person would intend on saying what they're typing. A lot of people use verbal clues to tell how they mean what they're saying, such as putting emphasis on specific words. You can't get that over the computer. So sometimes it's hard to take what people are saying without making guesses as to what they mean. ::Whew::.

But anyways, I think one of the main problems most people have with WHAT you say Chris, is more in the context of HOW you say it. Theres a big difference between "I hate Gay People" and "I hate those fucking pillowbiting, stupid liberal fucktards" or whatever. Your posts included a lot of language that was accusatory, and insulting, which is why I think alot of people took it that way. If you want to have a debate, use more intellegent words, rather than words like "fucktard" (hehe, I just like typing fucktard, it's a great word), and try using words that mean the same thing, but aren't quite as hostile seeming or sounding.

Yes, that's pretty much what we're saying Chris. You can express what you want to say openly, but there's a major difference between spewing out a hate-filled speech, and expressing your opinons. You can have all the pride you want to, I'm a white, middle class male, and i'm proud of what I am. The whole thing is that I don't need to go out and show that i'm proud of it. Your pigeon-holing yourself when you use hate-filled speech. It's not rocket science Chris. You want respect, you treat people with respect. You want an intellegent debate, you use words that won't allow emotions to get heavily involved, which basically means the "naughty" words would need to go. You can have an intellegent conversation on a subject that would more than likely get heated, by simply choosing your words wisely and not using any of the excess "hate-monger" words, all those extra adjectives that you seem to like using.

Christopher,

It is interesting how you now portray yourself simply as someone wanting to express their pride, and being labeled all these horrible things. You are free to be proud of who and what you are. There is nothing wrong with expressing your pride in being white, Christian, a veteran, heterosexual, etc. The problem is the way that you express your pride is not by saying I am proud to be white or I am proud to be straight, you say things like "I can't stand fucking pillowbiting faggots who want the rights that I fought in some foxhole for." When you express your pride in your maleness, it is by saying "Woman, learn your fucking place, you fucking bitch.". Your pride in being white? "Hey dot heads, speak fucking English. Hey spics, go back to fucking Mexico where you belong", etc.. That is your way of expressing pride. The only way you show pride is in the denegration of others, and that is why you get the response you get. Based upon the statement you have made in these forums, you have nothing whatsoever to be proud of, and that is why you have been labeled a hatemonger, and are singled out.

Cristiano

Christopher,

You and I have never come to verbal blows, though I can count myself among those who agree with Brad and Cristiano and generally have been off-put by many of your posts before. However, I don't have any kind of personal hate for you at all. While I'll basically repeat the same message they are giving you, I look at it from a slightly different perspective -- which is that of someone who teaches other people how to be persuasive, i.e. from a Rhetorician's point of view. And from that perspective, if you are making any sort of argument (i.e. presenting a good claim, which is by definition something others can disagree with), then it stands to reason that your intention is to persuade the audience you have to see some of the wisdom in that claim and, perhaps, convince them to agree with you.

One of the first things that, in my mind, is important to understand when talking to a group who disagrees with you, is that you must find some kind of common ground with them before making your argument. For instance, a student of mine awhile back was a smoker, but she supported a ban on smoking in local bars. She wanted to convince other smokers, who did not support the ban, to change their minds. She did this by first establishing her commonalities, not her differences, with the group she was trying to convince.

The problem is that your particular style of rheotric does not seek to find commonalities with those who disagree in order to convince them, but instead seeks to alienate them further through the use of ad hominem/populum attacks which just make people defensive and do exactly what you pointed out -- they start picking apart the argument immediately, without listening to it first. This is an understandable reaction. And one I'm sure you may have experienced yourself now and then.

There's nothing wrong with being proud of who you are. If you really looked at who you're talking to in SL, you'd find that you're talking to A LOT of middle-class people, many who are white, many who may have had the same experiences as you in many ways but who simply don't agree with you on, say, gay rights or miniorities' rights. Just because you are proud of who you aren't doesn't necessairly preclude the belief that other people have just as much right to be proud of who they are. The difference is, you find their pride threatening on some level (I think, you can pick apart this one bit of my discussion if you like) and many people who are just like you in many, many ways, don't.

So instead of realizing that expressing pride doesn't mean you have to remove the ability of other people to express their own, and using that as, say, a compromise position, the rhetoric you happen to use doesn't allow for that small compromise and the discussion begins with no understanding of the audience and the audience having no opporotunity to really understand the speaker. All that can come from that is discord.

You're right, people make assumptions and form stereotypes about very outspoken conserative folks as yourself. But don't you think it's also true that you have a few stereotypes of your own about who are talking to and those of which you speak?

I mean, look at my signature. I'm proud to be a girl from the backwoods of Arkansas, proud to be part of that hardscrabble, down-to-earth, practical and yet infinitely creative tradition of hill-folk. In fact, I moved from Denver so I could live here again. And yes, most of us are white and Christian and conservative. I'm white and middle-class. But that doesn't mean I have to hate my neighbors that aren't white and middle class and Christian. And it doens't mean I have to believe that those folks threaten me personally. It means I can be white and a hillbilly and still find the value in all people.

Zana

I'll repeat what others have said, you;re proud to be you. Cool beans. Unfortunately you show your pride by denegrating and debasing others views that you don't like.

You didn't show your pride of being hetero by only saying how proud you are etc. You chose to exemplify how much you despise homosexuality and telling us all exactely why it's wrong wrong wrong.

You didn't show your pride of having served your country by just saying how proud you were by serving your country. Oh no. You went of to describe how much you despise anyone who has anything negative to say about OUR country, and blanket it by showing that that the opinions those who haven't served aren't as important as yours.

In the past you haven't been able to show your pride of being you except by telling us how much you despise (you seem to like that word) anything that goes againt your pride.

That's the big problem I believe. You can't seem to feel good about yourself without trying to make other feel bad about themselves.

Christopher,

You have every right to express your opinions about gay people, how you wouldn't really mind if we put them in boxes and shipped them off to some isle, what isle to use, and should we use FedEx or UPS to ship them there. You can also talk about guns and hunting. You have every right to talk about white pride.

And we have every right to hate the things you talk about with every fiber of our being.

With Kind Regards,
A Liberal Fucktard

Oh, just one other point of inflammation. Myself, even this forum, I've never lowerd myself by calling those who disagree with me 'fucknut' or 'fucktard' or saying 'fuck you' or 'fuck off' or any one of your other preferred 'fuck' phrases.

Why? You simply cannot have a 'discussion' with anyone when you can't even make a simple trying-to-be-innocent post without showing your complete disrespect by hurling profanity at others. I will always try to (try, important word that) debate issues with those I disagree with, but as soon as it drops to hurling filth at the other person or the other persons views, any semblence of 'debate' is lost.

And no, your pride doesn't automatically mean you;re anti anything. When you begin heaping filth of degredation however, that's a very good clue that yes, you are anti whatever you;re mouthing off about.

If you actually want a debate of whatever, sure, I'll debate, but as soon as someone starts in by tossing profanity, humiliation and predjudice every other word, I'll be more than happy to go toe-to-toe with that person.

You're absolutely right, Chris. But I do want to ask this, do you consider yourself a "white supremacist" ? I've heard this term bandied about in the forums, and I don't know if this was sourced from you or someone else.

There's a big difference between having pride and "supremacy", so I don't know what your take is on that.

You do say that you have no ill will towards any individual on SL. However, from your posts, (and I've mainly just been reading, not replying) - I got the impression that, chances are, you do want me dead. (Re: 'stop sucking my air').

Personally, i'm not "proud" to be asian or female. (Note I don't capitalize either of them.) If you're proud to be white, that doesn't even cause me to shrug.

But if you ARE saying that you want me *dead* because I ended up some color I didn't pick, anyways, well... That becomes more of an issue.

I think what most people jump to, they see someone saying they're proud to be white, and assume that the person is racist. (I agree, though, that it doesn't happen when people say they're proud to be black or hispanic. I think thats hypocritical.)

Since I didn't see the beginning (I guess it was deleted) - I don't know if your opinions are rooted in pride or supremacy.

But I can say one thing. And this is coming from a so called "double minority" (in the world, actually, a double majority but whatever) - people who say that anyone who is both white and male should automatically be villainized are just as bad as folks who have said that blacks and jews should are the villains.

There is no reciprocity that is righteous, like that. Yeah, the social pendulum swings, but whatever.

So I'd be interested to hear your take on it Chris.

I find it odd that if I TipToe around the total bluntness of the truth as I see it.... people tiptoe around their responses as well.

Many good points have been made here and yes I did take a long break to stop and think before I replied.

Lets start with being a veteran for instance.
Do you know WHY I bring that up so often?
Because in all sincerity, had I known that down the road the country I was fighting for would fall into the disheveled mass of ..... for lack of a better term... values that in my opinion are flat out bullshit.... I would have never gone to fight.

I was fighting for a set of ideals, morals, and values.
And I as well as MANY others I served with who I knew on a personal basis were fighting for the same set of things that I was. We didnt get strings pulled so we didnt have to fight, we didnt run off to another country. We grabbed ourselves up by the bootstraps and marched off into unfriendly territory for the sake and sanctity of that value set. To defend them with our last ounce of energy!

And contrary to what you may believe... I can testify to the addage of there being NO ATHEISTS in foxholes.

But let me be perfectly clear... if someone could have put a chip in my headgear that would flash the world forward 20-30 years... which laid out how this country functions today...
When that little show was over, how many of my kind would have been VERY positive in their decision to NOT put themselves into harms way.
I honestly dont know of a single one that I served with, that would have even given it a second thought to go and fight for what this country has become.

And you see HERE is where the whole house of cards comes tumbling down for me. I spent a LOT of my life in a "Serve and Protect" mode. During the first phase I witnessed atrocities in other lands that would bring a lot of people to their knees in fear. During my second phase I felt as though the world was gonna be ok as long as our boys in blue kept taking out the trash that was polluting things for the rest of us decent folk.

But now that I can sit back and reflect on my life... it seems as though it has all been for nothing.
The values I fought so hard to protect now appear to be nothing more than
"Caveman", "Old Fashioned", "Redneck", "Hillbilly", "Intolorant", "Hate Mongering", "Insert whatever you want here".

Am I supposed to take pride in the fact that so many of us DIED protecting one system, only to have another system put in place that flies in the face of what we deemed reasnable and sane?

I suppose the obvious retort to all of this goes along the lines of "Hey! The World is evolving! Deal With It!"

I hope when you are older, and they are implanting chips into your grandkids at birth for "tracking" purposes, and instead of telemarketers and spam there will be unwanted "targeted" advertising pushed into the heads up displays on your car.
And when your next door neighbors Kid goes off on a rampage because of too many years as a medicated "ADHD Candidate" and sacrifices your poodle and you have NO SAY SO in the matter due to the laws recently passed. And when Home Invasions are more commonplace than a fender bender but you have no right to protect yourself or your family with anything other than a butter knife because guns were outlawed....
Maybe... just maybe... you will think back to now and wonder,
"Why the fuck cant people just be liberals, or gay, or just plain old hateful rednecks anymore"

Because now I am the one doing the reflecting and I wonder why people cant just be heterosexual OR quiet about their alternate lifestyle. Why cant my kid pray in school? I did. Why did a Judge in Alabama lose his job for correctly refusing to remove the 10 commandments from a courthouse?
And why is it we dont want to be "One Nation, Under God" anymore? Why should our money NOT say "In God we Trust"?
Why DONT we lock down our borders and disolve the Immigration and Naturalization Service?
Whats so wrong with sending little Susie out of town because she is in "The Family Way" and its an embarrassment to the family?
Why arent they actually dealing out DEATH to the people on DEATH ROW?
My wonderment.... It goes on and on and on and on.
And one day... yours will too.
I certainly hope you dont find yourself feeling as though whatever choices you made in your life ended up being all of the wrong ones because they did no good. I also hope that whatever at that point in your life you would term the "Seedy Underbelly Derilicts" of YOUR society in that day and age arent winning. Because you FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!
Remember?

Did you know that most of our Founding Fathers were Deists? That's right, not Catholics, Deists. I bet you don't even know what that is, Christopher. You have proved to me that you refuse to see the other side.

I don't hate you, Christopher. I just hate the way you talk about the people you hate. Do you need a hug? A woman maybe?

"If you don't pray in my schools, I won't think in your churches."

-Herecy House (note how I named the source instead of claiming it was my own, Christopher. I dislike unorginality)

no thanks on the hug
and I dont think the wife would go for the other woman theory.

ever hear of the burning bed?
She swears it will be then known as the SUPERGLUED TO THE FRAME Burning Bed.

Wanted to go back and doublecheck the facts, yes I knew what a Deist was.

According to our conversation regarding religion at your place, did not most of what I had to say regarding relgion come near DEFIANCE of current church doctrine?

In fact that is what i call "Churchianity", people that follow the doctrines of the church leader more closely than they follow their common sense.

One more thing, I only turned down the hug for fear you would try and disarm me in the process

Glad we agree on something.

Oh, and I see you've spoiled my evil plan by turning down my hug.

I just hope someday, hopefully within my lifetime, we can live in a country free of this sort of hateful sickness of the soul.

I hope I see a day where America means freedom for everyone, not just the chosen.

I want to live in an America where law-abiding citizens can live in peace with themselves and each other. regardless of their personal lifestyles.

I hope to see a day where children don't have to live in fear of making a mistake that will make their supposedly loving parents won't throw them out with the trash if they do make a mistake. (In my opinion, this was one of the sickest things you've said, ever)

I hope to live in an America run by secular reason and compassion, not religous hysteria, intolerance and fear.

And I hope to one day realize that the only places to find the attitudes and ideas touted by Chistopher can only be found in archives and history books, used only to eduacate others of the most dangerous things we've managed to leave behind.

Amen

Simple way to do that - get rid of the human race.

Yeah, but I can still hope.

I can too - and little by little, society inches in that direction. Every generation brings new enlightenment on what it means to be human, what it means to be individuals, what it means to be American and what it means to be free. It's kind of a two steps forward, one step backward kind of a thing, but it is happening. It may not be in our lifetimes, unfortunately, but there is still hope, and no amount of cynicism can stop hope.

Cristiano's right, Christopher can still help the human genepool, and improve humanity.

...that's what the Darwin Awards are for.

Christopher,

I am sorry that you have lived a life filled with so much regret, disappointment, and hatred. I am glad to not have the burden of that in my life, and I am sorry that you do. Your posts have actually been pretty illuminating today. While they have not changed my opinion of you one iota, they have actually given me some perspective on what fuels this seething anger that you have. I hope never to look back upon my life and find so much to blame other people for, and to use that as my justification for becoming such a hateful person. You definitely don't have my sympathy, maybe some level of pity, but at least now it is clearer why you are so mad at the world.

Cristiano

Yes indeed.

And on another note, didn't Jesus say to love EVERYONE?

"You must drive all the natives of the land before you. If you do not drive the natives of the country before you then those who remain will become disgusting to your eyes and a thorn in your side. They will harass you in the land where you live, and I will deal with you as I meant to deal with them." Num. 33:51 "Devour the nations the lord your god delivers over to you. Show them no pity."

"The land you are invading is foul because of the filthiness of the natives. Their land is filled with filth from end to end because of the foulness of the natives. So you must not marry them or be concerned with their prosperity, so that yourselves may grow strong and eat the best of what the country produces yourself, and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.'" Ezra 9:10 "You must not marry them or give a daughter or son of yours to them in marriage, for the anger of the lord your god would then blaze out against you, and quickly destroy you. It is you the lord your god has chosen to be his very own people out of all these other peoples of the earth." Deut. 6 "Are we to marry the natives? Would you not be provoked into destroying us so that none survived? This is our sin. None can survive in your presence." Ezra 9:13 "You must keep all the commandments I give you so that you will have the strength to conquer the land you are to enter and make your own." Deut. 11:8 "Annihilate the nations you are dispossessing and make your home in their country." Deut. 12:29 "Put the inhabitants to the slaughter without giving any quarter and burn their town down. In this way the lord might turn from his fierce anger and show you compassion." Deut. 13:15