Proud to be an American.... why?

Plus, you get to vote for which of the two conservative, christian, middle-aged wealthy caucsain males you want to lead you!

omg Wednesday your killing me...how true how true!!!

I'm forced to think about that scene in So Long and Thanks for All the Fish by Douglas Adams:

"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

"I did," said Ford. "It is."

"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"

"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong
lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

The true sign of a free nation.



It seems that Canada and most of Europe "evolved" in the human rights department without any help from the US. Hell, Canada and England abolished slavery what 100 years or more before the US? I love my country as much as the next person but we didn't "spread" human rights and democracy. Unless manifest destiny is you definition of "spreading human rights". Democracy has been around since ancient Greece.

The U.S. of A is a rebublic, not a democracy.

republic = represenative democracy

splitting hairs are we?

Well we don't have a democracy anyway in the true sence of the term but you are right our form of gov't did morph from the ideas of the republic and was melted in a strong brew of locke and the like....but no democracy was not created by Americans niether was the republic we applaud in our pledge of allegiance (which was written by a socialist) and man will naturally move more and more back towards individual freedom which scares the shite outta those lizards. crap...I need to form thoughts quicker sorry to reiterate what has been said and no a republic is not really truely a representative democracy.

Humm, I was under the impression that a Rebublic was a country ruled by document (as opposed to the dictates of a dictator). But dictionary.com says I'm wrong.

"Explain that to the hostages that were rescued in Grenada."

I will as soon as you explain it to the family members of the people we killed en masse in order to stop the "communist menace". You forget we trained rebels in many central american countries, simply because they wanted to kill as many "commies" as possible.


"Or to the families of those whose lives were taken/ruined on 9/11."

So marching in Iraq, bombing Afghanistan back to the stone age, and threatening Syria, North Korea, and Iran is a "good" war? Do explain.

Killing thousands of people there won't bring the 5000 people we lost on 9/11 back from the dead.

"Find an old Jewish man with a number tattooed on his arm, and see what his response is to that statement."

Considering we paid little mind to the Nazi menace and their horrific treatment of Jews and Gypsies and Russians until they goaded the Japanese into bombing Hawaii, I fully expect him to ask "why didn't you come in sooner?"

"Explain that to the millions of service members & veterans who volunteered to risk their lives to defend your right to insult them."

I didn't insult the soldiers, I insulted the generals.

The soldiers do not make the decision to overrun a third world country. They simply must follow the orders of the generals, sitting at home, helping their sons dodge the draft. If we kept a strong military force, at home, there is little reason for anyone to attack us or hold a grudge against us.


"I am an American, fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense."

Fine, great. I agree... as soon as someone invades the United States, I'll be the first to take up arms against them.

But the Iraqis didn't invade us... in fact, they didn't do ANYTHING to us (except buy our weapons in the 70's and 80's, oh and shake Donald Rumsfeld's hand int he 80's)

My main issue is why we're lording over the sovereignity of other nations, when we flat out refuse to let anyone else do the same to us.

LF

"LF, since your so insightful on how awful we are, let's see your plan to remedy it."

Okay.

First, stop attacking other countries for ridiculous pretenses (we must stop communism! we must stop the war on drugs! we must stop terrorism!). Withdraw our troops to within our territories, and let it be.

Send humanitarian aid through the United Nations to the countries that need it (the whole of Africa, for instance)

Advocate peace and prosperity, and wage any "conflict" via economic means, not with guns. NOT WITH GUNS. Don't say you're pro-peace while you're blowing up Baghdad.

With the added unspent money due to military expedentures in our pockets, balance the budget, increase health care, and work to lower the soaring tuition costs of students.

Don't sell guns or any weapons to anyone.

The reasons the terrorists attacked us was because, to them, we were meddling in affairs that weren't ours to begin with. Had we not fiddled with Iran, or Iraq, or any of a dozen other countries over there, they wouldn't have bothered attacking us.


"If you distrust and despise your own country (and from your post I guess it spans several administrations) so much, why don't you simply leave? Does the reason you haven't left have anything to do with a job? Or income? Dont be half assed. You were obviously disillusioned with this country long before Bush, taken from your own examples. "

I have seriously considered moving to Canada on any number of occasions. Reasons I haven't include money, friends, family, and a place to live once I get over there.

Conversely, since we're making assumptions, if you disagree so whole-heartedly against the war, then why did you vote for Bush? Or, more succiently, not vote?

Ask that question to the millions of people that simply do not use their voice as a democracy.

LF

Of course, your democracy could be in a bit of trouble:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html

You're right Weds, if it gets to the point where I have to register and identify myself just to get the news, our democracy is in trouble!

So what was the article about?

Basically the ACLU is suing the government over some provisions of the PATRIOT act, but due to other provisions of the PATRIOT act, the were not allowed to tell anyone about the suit.

It's not often I look to South Park for a quote, but I think Kyle said it best: "America may have some problems, but it's our home, our team. If you don't want to root for our team, then get the hell out of the stadium."

This is probably apropos to nothing in this thread, but if I throw in a bunch of smilies, then LF can't claim I'm being capricious, argumentative or just plain ornery...

The difference is my assumptions seemed to have been on target, and you validated them. Your assumption is so far off base it's hillarious. I have never missed a vote in my precinct ever. City, State or Federal, and although it's none of your business, I did not vote for Bush. I would also like to point out that while my post was somewhat inflammatory, it was in response to a VERY inflammatory thread.

this is so funny. What about amnesty international and all the other organizations that bitch if we dont' do something?

In Liberia (got the right country right?) people were bitching when Bush said he was gonna get involved, then once the UN supported it they bitched he didn't do it fast enough.

Most people don't really care whether we do use our force or not, they care who's in charge of using it and whether they like him or not, they make it a political issue not whether it was the right thing. If Clinton had done what Bush did in Iraq you would not see all the bitching about it. Clinton waged unilateral wars, Clinton ignored the UN. But nothing was made of it, because he was a democrat, to not see that is to be blind.

JV

The thing about sovereignity is you only have it if you can defend it.

Thats the way its always been. If you have the military to back it up, go for it.

You are talking about Sovereignity but I assume you are one of the people that love the UN, which takes away our sovereignity.

JV

There are two reasons that Iraq has some significantce in the war on terror.

1. Saddam did support terrorism, I never heard the white house say Al Queda, people just assumed it. Saddam supported Hamas and Hezbollah in Israel. He paid 25,000 to families of suicide bombers because he hated Israel. Now if he was willing to do that because he hated Israel and he hated the US too, how long till he started providing help to Al Queda?

2. It is a belief amongst some foreign policy experts, though some disagree too, that spreading democracy and democratic ideals and the economic prosperity which has traditionally gone along with it is the best way to stop terrorism. People that are well off don't blow themselves up typically. Iraq used to be the most forward thinking Arab country, with the highest educated populous. If Iraq does succeed as a democracy the hope is that it will plant the seed for change int he middle east.

So these two reasons DO link Iraq to the War on Terror.

JV

Those first three were in rebuttal of your statement that "There is no such thing as a 'good' military venture."



You've got that backwards. Most military personnel that have good military careers encourag their children to join the military, voluntarily. Now admittedly, I don't know what military officials were generally like during the Vietnam era, but this is now. Comparing today's military to the military of 35 years ago is like comparing filet mignon to mad cow hamburger.



You seem to have missed (or conveniently ignored) the part about our way of life.

And no, you won't be the first to take up arms against anyone. There are several hundred thousand (possibly millions) of active duty, reserve, and veterans that will be in the fight long before you even realize there is one.

Who said I supported Clinton's policy any better? He launched missiles against afghanistan for the heck of it, put our troops in danger in somalia, and there's probably half a dozen other conflicts he decided to muddle into.

Our foreign policy seems to consist of:

1) Pick a country we no longer jive with.
2) Make various threats towards country to "disarm" or "stop supporting terrorism" or "making bombs" or whatever.
3) Invade country even though it tries to appease us.
4) Prop up unpopular, shaky "democracy".
5) Profit!

Most people DO care whether we use force or not. I'm fairly sure most Iraqis paid attention when they saw a column of Abram tanks rolling through their village.

Just because the American populace doesn't care doesn't mean the world doesn't. There ARE 5.75 billion other people in the world, you know.

LF

*blink*

Ok, so following your logic, we must protect our sovereignity by attacking every other country's sovereignity?

So, what, Canada's next?

The only countries that could possibly stand up to our military right now is China and Russia (Russia only because of sheer numbers). Ergo, the 150+ other nations I guess don't have any sovereignity, because we have to "protect our way of life".

1 Yeah he did but so do we....not saying that he was right just that we are wrong as well in our past dealings with Al Queda. I am glad that he is gone. But there is just as much evidence that he didn't get along very well with Al Queda. Two boys in the same sandbox, both looking to rule it is bad. He was militant but not a strict muslim in the least...Al Queda is a religiously driven militant force Sadham is in it for the cash.

2 I agree but only to a point. This war was not supposed to be about spreading the democratic love around the M.E. it was supposed to be about stomping the shit out of those who attacked us...and we have yet to make good on that. The war on terror is a vague and ambiguose term created to give the US government the right to invade countries and homes without prejudice just by waving a wand over them and saying your a terrorist...terrorist tag if you will...we tagged Iraq and said your easy your it. Now we see it wasn't easy...most in our gov't thought this war would last 7-30 days and now we are well over 400 days and the killing goes on.

This said we are there now...I support my troops that is fine. But I do not support the administration that is forcing religion down my throat while at the same time trying to free another country from religious persecution. I do not support an administration who fights to "free" other countries but creates new laws taking away mine. They are not filling their obligations to the Citizens of the USA bottom line or to the documents that my fore fathers wrote to protect me.

I would assume an effectively managed group of people should have lower taxes as the group size increases due to economies of scale (more production = lower cost per unit)...

Do you have an example of data which demonstrates this trend?

Re: Lizards -- so true. Lizards and sheep we are, alas.

Proud? No. I'm ashamed of our behavior.

BTW, asking for "proof" of wrongdoing by politicians (of any party) is a straw man for ignoring intuition.

Wow I'm astounded,

Proof is now no longer needed to convict someone. I can not believe you said that.

There are countless examples of a situation looking like someone did something wrong, all the intuition in the world points to the person, yet there is no proof or they are finally proven innocent.

Yet now you say intuition is more important than proof. I pray to god you are never on a jury.

JV

You know, I was talking to my mother today (also a veteran) and when I mentioned this comment from you, she brought up a good point.

Exactly which branch of the service DID you join on Sep 12th, 2001?