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Outrageously Offended |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
![]() Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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12-18-2004 03:43
![]() _____________________
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
![]() Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-18-2004 03:49
This all leads us back to the big Q. Is it real life or second life or both?
I guarantee you that doing anonymous, unagreed to upskirts in RL will get you in trouble if you get caught, let alone flaunt it. The money we use here has real life currency value and is traded, as is land. The friendships we make are real. The relationships we develop are real. The items we create, sell and buy have RL value by virtue of the value of the L$. Why then would the pixellated manifestions of ourselves not be afforded the same RL characteristics? Taco, If you can accept these facts then you should be able to understand that you should have asked. The content of the pics is secondary to the main issue. You didn't ask. You surreptiously collected the pics and then used an aptly (one which implies you new it was going to cause a stir) named thread in the general forum as an advertising medium for your interests. (Why this thread is still in the general section continues to be one of life's great mysteries). The literal interpretation of the title of this thread is mocking the outcome you apparently anticipated might ensue. I would like to ask if any of your unwitting models will be compensated by means of a portion of your profit? _____________________
“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-18-2004 03:57
Or, of course, we could all just vote.
Go to Whinlatter 168, 78 and triple neg rate the fellow. Maybe he'll get the idea after awhile. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
![]() Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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12-18-2004 03:57
My own take on this is that...
It doesn't matter whether we, as a group, think that pixilated avatars are real, or have as many rights as a real person. As has been said, if it were RL, this would be illegal. As has been said, the Lindens are against this. As has been said, if the subject of the photograph HAS NOT given her consent, then it's wrong. If Roxie is ok with it, then great... but I for one would not be, and reading this thread, the people who would not be happy far outweigh the people who are. Of course, we're only the forum dwellers. So Taco, ask before you put pictures up. You might be surprised at how many are ok with it, though personally I doubt it. As for me, if I find there's one of me or my alt there, I'm going to rip bits of your anatomy off and sell them in boxes, THEN file an abuse report and depending on how regognisable it is, maybe even seek RL legal advice on it. My own opinion is you should ask before taking the shot, let alone post it. _____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
![]() Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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12-18-2004 04:12
This all leads us back to the big Q. Is it real life or second life or both?....Why is the pixellated manifestion of ourselves then not afforded the same RL characteristics? As a matter of fact, lets disregard the TOS/CS for a minute. It happens to be true that I created Taco's avatar when he started, so what if I were to start selling it, putting it in freebie boxes, or using it without his permission, would he object? I think Taco would prefer that I ask his permission...although I am not completely sure he would. I do think others in SL would want me to ask their permission before using their avatar in some way especially if i were making a spectacle of myself while using it. Yes it makes a difference that an avatar coochie is not as identifiable as an avatar face (there are some pretty notorious coochies in SL however.. ![]() |
Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
![]() Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
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12-18-2004 05:46
With all due respect David, Not trying to be smart here Jonq. When I was in the Army a lieutenant once told me this phrase when starting a reply basically was telling an officer in a polite way to kiss your ass ![]() ![]() _____________________
YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people ! |
Rick Rutledge
Second Lifer
![]() Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 27
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12-18-2004 06:22
Yes. I watched the whole cycle which is how I recognized that my friends where on display. Umm, wouldn't it be possible for me to look at your avatar, then re-design my own avatar to exactly resemble yours, then take a picture of myself? I could even photoshop your name over my av. And if I did this, how would it violate your privacy? Is there any way to verifiably identify a user from a snapshot of his/her av? If there is not, then one cannot tell the Lindens "Taco is displaying a picture of me" with any kind of provable evidence. Anyone reporting Taco to the Lindens must have the burden of proof placed on them, if the Lindens are following an assumption of "innocent until proven guilty". But they might not be, since they own the game, heh. |
Rick Rutledge
Second Lifer
![]() Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 27
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12-18-2004 06:27
My own take on this is that... So Taco, ask before you put pictures up. You might be surprised at how many are ok with it, though personally I doubt it. As for me, if I find there's one of me or my alt there, I'm going to rip bits of your anatomy off and sell them in boxes, THEN file an abuse report and depending on how regognisable it is, maybe even seek RL legal advice on it. My own opinion is you should ask before taking the shot, let alone post it. This is funny, because your post violates the TOS to the extreme, namely threatening Taco with real physical violence. I imagine Taco has been traumatized by your threats to rip his anatomy and will be suing you/reporting you to the Lindens for threatening him. Naughty, naughty. |
Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
![]() Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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12-18-2004 06:31
This is funny, because your post violates the TOS to the extreme, namely threatening Taco with real physical violence. I imagine Taco has been traumatized by your threats to rip his anatomy and will be suing you/reporting you to the Lindens for threatening him. Naughty, naughty. I really hope so, since I didn't mention RL at all. I really really hope so. _____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
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Cromulence DeGroot
Cromulent User
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 135
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12-18-2004 06:52
The money we use here has real life currency value and is traded, as is land. The friendships we make are real. The relationships we develop are real. The items we create, sell and buy have RL value by virtue of the value of the L$. Why then would the pixellated manifestions of ourselves not be afforded the same RL characteristics? And it all happens in a virtual world owned entirely by some corporation. The fact that so many of you are so emotionally invested in things that can disappear in the flash of a bankruptcy filing is simultaneously pathetic and hilarious. If your SL avatar is truly an extension of your self, then you have allowed a part of your soul to be owned and controlled by some company and you are paying them for the privelege. AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAA! As for sexism and objectification of women, those two things are inseparable parts of the cultural subtext of SL. Just open up the events list or go to one of the many avatar malls. Sure, there is usually token mention of "best male av" too, but come on. ![]() The only possibly legitimate issue here is consent. I have to give Aimee Weber credit for sticking to that issue though personally I disagree with her. This is just my view, which I'm sure many will not agree with but please do give it some thought: In RL, your body either is your "self" or it's where your "self" resides. In either case, it is an essential part of your existence, and while you do use it to represent yourself (through stylization) to others in the world, that is a secondary aspect. In other words, it exists for reasons other than people looking at it. However, your avatar exists solely to be seen, and any aspect of it that you make visible in a public area can have no conceivable reason for being visible other than you want people to see it. And since everyone knows that the snapshot function exists on the client, making anything accessible to the camera is giving implied consent. Calling Taco a creep may be appropriate, but saying or implying that he violated anyone's rights seems pretty questionable to me. If anyone disagrees with this, I would be interested in knowing what reason you could possibly have for your avatar wearing anything (vagina, penis, sexy undies, long johns, whatever) in a public area if you don't want it to be seen. I'm not being rhetorical here; obviously people do feel strongly about this and I want to understand their position better. I really cannot conceive of any reason to be upset about snapshots of anything that you have visible in public; if Taco were somehow sneaking into private buildings and taking these I could understand the outrage. Please educate me further on your position. |
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
![]() Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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12-18-2004 07:15
Good posting, Ulrika.
The first paragraph made me think it wasn't you, but then you seemed to go into your normal style. On the other hand, it could be Kathy. ![]() Either way, you make some interesting points, but it was ironic that in my new posts listing, the post below yours was this one:- <<New Mens Items finally out! New Mens Harnesses, Thongs and Chaps. Only currently available in the Main Outlet in Awa 192,212>> - complete with pictures of posing males. ![]() _____________________
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
![]() Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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12-18-2004 07:50
However, your avatar exists solely to be seen, and any aspect of it that you make visible in a public area can have no conceivable reason for being visible other than you want people to see it. And since everyone knows that the snapshot function exists on the client, making anything accessible to the camera is giving implied consent. |
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
![]() Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-18-2004 08:28
Umm, wouldn't it be possible for me to look at your avatar, then re-design my own avatar to exactly resemble yours, then take a picture of myself? I could even photoshop your name over my av. And if I did this, how would it violate your privacy? Is there any way to verifiably identify a user from a snapshot of his/her av? If there is not, then one cannot tell the Lindens "Taco is displaying a picture of me" with any kind of provable evidence. Anyone reporting Taco to the Lindens must have the burden of proof placed on them, if the Lindens are following an assumption of "innocent until proven guilty". But they might not be, since they own the game, heh. Actually this is an interesting point, and it was a Linden that brought it up to ME in discussion. Depending on the specifics you COULD be punished for it. Basically to the Lindens, showing my coochie without my consent is handled more like harassment than a privacy issue. It would be as if you made a copy of my av for use in slandering me. How close the av must look to me is, as all things in SL, up the the judgement of the Linden called in to investigate the abuse report. -aimee |
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
![]() Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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12-18-2004 08:33
Good posting, Ulrika. The first paragraph made me think it wasn't you, but then you seemed to go into your normal style. On the other hand, it could be Kathy. ![]() Either way, you make some interesting points, but it was ironic that in my new posts listing, the post below yours was this one:- <<New Mens Items finally out! New Mens Harnesses, Thongs and Chaps. Only currently available in the Main Outlet in Awa 192,212>> - complete with pictures of posing males. ![]() Ulrika posted about this issue? Where? I have actually been hoping she would weigh in. -aimee |
Ace Cassidy
Resident Bohemian
![]() Join date: 5 Apr 2004
Posts: 1,228
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12-18-2004 08:42
I think it is funny your name is Taco given the subject of the pictures! ![]() I can make a taco do the sour cream thing! ![]() - Ace _____________________
"Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton
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Rick Rutledge
Second Lifer
![]() Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 27
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12-18-2004 08:50
If anyone disagrees with this, I would be interested in knowing what reason you could possibly have for your avatar wearing anything (vagina, penis, sexy undies, long johns, whatever) in a public area if you don't want it to be seen. I'm not being rhetorical here; obviously people do feel strongly about this and I want to understand their position better. I really cannot conceive of any reason to be upset about snapshots of anything that you have visible in public; if Taco were somehow sneaking into private buildings and taking these I could understand the outrage. Please educate me further on your position. One of the things that is hard for males to understand is that a woman can dress in a provocative manner, and still NOT want the attention of males. I'm not talking homosexuality. I'm talking about a person dressing sexy just 'cause they want to feel sexy. In other words, a person might dress to please THEMSELVES, not to please OTHERS. I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to mention a reason for short skirts, sexy underwear, or whatever, that DOES NOT include wanting to have your picture taken or beomg stared at. |
Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
![]() Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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12-18-2004 08:53
Taco = Puppet Master
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
![]() Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
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12-18-2004 08:56
I am in it. It's a pic of barbies crotch. Big deal. There are two pictures. The first time he did it. I didn't know until he gave me the pic. When I saw the much to do about nothing on this. I went over and asked him to take another one. As other people have said. This is make believe. Cartoon characters on parade. Rox "pull down your pants and slide on the ice" Dr Sidney Freeman ![]() Roxie - that was pretty much my take on it too. ![]() _____________________
I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To
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Roxie Marten
Crumedgeon
![]() Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 291
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12-18-2004 08:57
My own take on this is that... If Roxie is ok with it, then great... but I for one would not be, and reading this thread, the people who would not be happy far outweigh the people who are. Of course, we're only the forum dwellers. The only reason I am okay with it. Is the fact that the Roxie you see on screen is not the Roxanne sitting at the keyboard typing this right now. We play in a make believe world. What happens in Second Life has no bearing on the quality of my real life. No one is going to point thier finger at me in the grocery story and whisper "there is that Roxanne she had her crotch flashed all over the internet" On other hand, if I pick up our 20 page excuse of a newspaper and see my crotch there. That is a different story. . I live in a small town and I am sure it would not take many moments for folks to connect the dots. Then there is the possiblity of my life being impacted by it. Rox |
Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
![]() Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
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12-18-2004 08:59
This all leads us back to the big Q. Is it real life or second life or both? I guarantee you that doing anonymous, unagreed to upskirts in RL will get you in trouble if you get caught, let alone flaunt it. The money we use here has real life currency value and is traded, as is land. The friendships we make are real. The relationships we develop are real. The items we create, sell and buy have RL value by virtue of the value of the L$. Why then would the pixellated manifestions of ourselves not be afforded the same RL characteristics? Taco, If you can accept these facts then you should be able to understand that you should have asked. The content of the pics is secondary to the main issue. You didn't ask. You surreptiously collected the pics and then used an aptly (one which implies you new it was going to cause a stir) named thread in the general forum as an advertising medium for your interests. (Why this thread is still in the general section continues to be one of life's great mysteries). The literal interpretation of the title of this thread is mocking the outcome you apparently anticipated might ensue. I would like to ask if any of your unwitting models will be compensated by means of a portion of your profit? Good Question Nolan! If you consider copyright. How about it Taco? Will the ladies who are the subjects of your pictures share in the profits of your ventures? _____________________
I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To
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Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
![]() Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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12-18-2004 09:01
The only reason I am okay with it. Is the fact that the Roxie you see on screen is not the Roxanne sitting at the keyboard typing this right now. We play in a make believe world. What happens in Second Life has no bearing on the quality of my real life. No one is going to point thier finger at me in the grocery story and whisper "there is that Roxanne she had her crotch flashed all over the internet" On other hand, if I pick up our 20 page excuse of a newspaper and see my crotch there. That is a different story. . I live in a small town and I am sure it would not take many moments for folks to connect the dots. Then there is the possiblity of my life being impacted by it. Rox Oh, I understand that Roxie, and I have the utmost respect for your decision, but not everyone has the same opinion of their avie. Mine is not me, per se, but it is me while I'm in SL, if you see what I mean, and I value my SL body the same as my RL body... _____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
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Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
![]() Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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12-18-2004 09:03
One of the things that is hard for males to understand is that a woman can dress in a provocative manner, and still NOT want the attention of males. I'm not talking homosexuality. I'm talking about a person dressing sexy just 'cause they want to feel sexy. In other words, a person might dress to please THEMSELVES, not to please OTHERS. I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to mention a reason for short skirts, sexy underwear, or whatever, that DOES NOT include wanting to have your picture taken or beomg stared at. Attention, yes... SOMETIMES! Can't we dress how we want? You'd have enough to say if we all wore victorian dresses that covered us from neck to heel... What we don't want is men taking advantage of the way we choose to dress for a purpose we did not intend. Get real for a change. _____________________
http://siobhantaylor.wordpress.com/
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
![]() Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
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12-18-2004 09:17
To those who keep claiming it's not a 'real vagina' or a 'real person' and therefore it shouldn't make anyone pissed off... Do you hold the same argument when a dark skinned Avatar is called a nigger? An avatar's skin color is no more real than an avatar's tattoos or attachments.
Personally, I think the sentiment is quite clear even if the medium it is expressed in is virtual. To make racial slurs against an Avatar is still racism. It's no different when it's sexism. It's all extremely disrespectful and meant to be degrading. _____________________
Little Rebel Designs
Gallinas |
Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
![]() Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
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12-18-2004 09:21
One of the things that is hard for males to understand is that a woman can dress in a provocative manner, and still NOT want the attention of males. I'm not talking homosexuality. I'm talking about a person dressing sexy just 'cause they want to feel sexy. In other words, a person might dress to please THEMSELVES, not to please OTHERS. I agree with most of your post, but I just wanted to mention a reason for short skirts, sexy underwear, or whatever, that DOES NOT include wanting to have your picture taken or beomg stared at. Oddly enough, it has been my observation that women do not dress for men, they dress for other women. A great example of this - when hubby and I went to his Christmas party I had to go and buy a new Xmas outfit because I did not want to wear the same one I wore last year. Hubby says "no one will remember, heck, I don't remember what you wore last year". I informed him that I could tell him basically what every woman that I took time to speak with wore last year. He didn't believe me. So I told him and he wrote down what I said. So he asked people on the list and - wow - I was right. Not only that, but the women who I spoke with could remember what I wore last year! Case in point: Many women have a closet full of shoes - yet ask most men what shoes you are wearing and they won't be able to tell you. Ask most women and they can describe them down to the heel height. I'm sure this will be construed as sexist and stereotypical but it just a reality that I have observed over the years. It's not something that makes women dumber or smarter than men (though more observant perhaps). _____________________
I Do Whatever My Rice Krispies Tell Me To
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Rick Rutledge
Second Lifer
![]() Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 27
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12-18-2004 09:29
Actually this is an interesting point, and it was a Linden that brought it up to ME in discussion. Depending on the specifics you COULD be punished for it. Basically to the Lindens, showing my coochie without my consent is handled more like harassment than a privacy issue. It would be as if you made a copy of my av for use in slandering me. How close the av must look to me is, as all things in SL, up the the judgement of the Linden called in to investigate the abuse report. -aimee Yes, of course it all depends upon the judgement of whatever Linden handles the "problem" which sort of makes all this discussion moot. But... all this discussion, and any external discussion (meetings, email, publicity, etc) can put pressure on the Lindens. Do they want to curtail behavior like this, at the expense of what might be considered Taco's freedom of expression? They are starting up a "teen" version of SL - do they want ANY publicity about stuff like this? Back to your point... you've said for you it's all about getting permission. I agree it's a creepy thing for Taco to do, but if a person says to a Linden "Hey Taco took my picture without my consent" there's really not any way to PROVE the picture is you. The Lindens probably won't take a chance that it ISN'T you, it would be very easy to take care of the whole mess by suspending/banning one little Taco, or at least making him take down the pix. Better safe than sorry, etc. /personal opinion And IMHO, that's how we lose our freedoms, one little Taco at a time. ![]() /opinion |