GOM defrauded again?!

@ people saying LL needs to act now -

it's 10:30pm now... the issue's a whole couple hours old? It's gonna take time

@ Cristiano -

You're correct when you say it's not right to jump the gun. I do, however, think Malachi's comments about IGE being a vehicle for stolen funds to bring a valid point:

It is illegal to even have possession of stolen goods.

If IGE does not cooperate in returning funds and preventing this, LL should be disassociating itself from IGE on a very simple basis - LL protecting itself from what would then be a criminal company.

(edited)

Sorry this happened again to you guys

Did IGE stop payment on the 300KL?

Amen to that! And after Mal's post I'd like to buy LL a few rounds too!

I think your negativity and accusations towards IGE are very unprofessional. I have got faster response through IGE more than I ever have through GOM... and people say GOM is more "personal" .... BS! GOM only comes around when they are scammed, other than that you deal with a scripted prim... This here has convinced me to never do business with GOM again.

What accusation towards IGE? All he's said is the facts of what happened. How on earth does that accuse IGE of anything? These people who want to put their own spin on everything....

Umm why dont you go re read then come back and try and be Mr know it all!

Wow, you've got me there. Sorry, I'd read the thread and either hadn't read that first post properly or had forgotten about it (short term memory loss and all that).

OK, I can now see that the accusation of IGE's involvement has come from the GOM guys themselves. I hope they have proof of that, otherwise that really could come back to bite them on the ass.

Maybe we should all just keep the name IGE out of these postings.

Moopf that statement is hardly "the clear cut facts of what happened" - that is a direct statement by Jamie accusing IGE of working in conjunction with those that defrauded IGE ("it's fairly clear that the scammers were coordinating closely with the IGE gang". The rest of the statement is just a misplaced slam on their speed of payout - hardly an area GOM should be criticizing anyone on.

No worries, it happens with old age... 10 or so years from now, you may catch me doing the same thing

haha, I've found it's got worse since I've had two kids to think about as well. Not enough brain cells to go around up here *taps hollow head*

Yes I know, I've already posted my apologies for having mis-firing brain cells

When did IGE start buying L$ again, anyway?

I never really use IGE and i don't want to take a definite position on the possibility of them having something to do with the fraud, but...
What i know is that i would never do business with them unless completely necessary, for a simple reason: GOM works only on second life, where the trading of currency is officially endorsed by the game developer, while IGE trades on several games where currency trading is not only not endorsed but even prohibited by the game developer. Games like those, where the amount of currency available is virtually infinite (because automatically generated by monster killing and the like) have suffered some really negative economy changes due to the uprising of money trading operated by IGE and similar sites. Prices have been incredibly inflated with the result of deprieving those lacking the possibility of the will of buying currency of the possibility to stand on equal chances with the ones that do. My experience on Final Fantasy XI, where people not willing to trade in game currency have to spend hundreds of hours camping overcrowded (by all the professional gil hunters that then sell their gils on IGE or similar sites) drop zones, to afford MILLIONS of gils to buy an half decent high level armor whose price has been inflated to no end by currency trading itself, has persuaded me of the fact that sites like IGE shouldnt be supported.
They already are involved in illegal activitis trading currency on games where it's not allowed, so i wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in scamming the competition. I am not telling they do, but i still wouldn't be surprised.

Just my two cents.

You should also consider a time limit on delivery for large payments.

I would recommend at least 24hrs for deliveries of over around 50,000L$?

This gives whoever the legitimate owner of the paypal account time to realise that someone's using it. So hopefully, any disputes like retracting the money will be done before the delivery time.

Thisi s definately a rule I myself am enforcing.

So that the last two out of three times I've been struck by lightning I was standing near Iggy, is it probable that the third time I'm struck, that Iggy is near? Well, yeah.

Moreover, the defrauded knows what avatar perpetrated the fraud, knows the timing of events, and may well have information they've not posted. Indeed, if I know these forums, someone will soon accuse the defrauded of simply making it up.

So we don't *know* it was IGE, fine, does GOM know how much they were scammed for and who it was retrieved by? Yup. Is rejection of liability by LL a matter of historic fact? Yup. Is that fact true? Don't know, no reason to doubt it though, it is certainly consistent with past LL "we are not involved" declarations. Are there many places that one could fence ill-gotten L$? Nope.

So please, replace any references made to "IGE" with "one of the few places where someone could fence $L300k" and most everything said holds true. I mean you don't *know* that Jack Ruby killed Oswald so Oswald is probably still alive, right? Is L$ scam equivalent to murder, no silly, that was an analogy.

What would surprise me is if (and only *if* LL was that shortsighted) Linden Lab didn't support Zeppi in providing data to determine who was responsible. I believe Philip himself has said more than once that GOM is important to Linden Lab and SecondLife, by extension.

As hard as it may be, I can also see why they may not want to 'front' the money that was lost, in L$. Its a tricky relationship here, where LL is better off with GOM around, but at the same time can't really 'bail them out' if someone wriggles past security measures.

Its a learning experience, and unfortunately this latest lesson was expensive.

I have full faith in Zeppi and crew to rectify things. I don't think they owe anyone anything as a result, just identify who is responsible and try to get satisfaction as much as the law will allow. (With their operations based in Canada, I have no basis to make any comparative statements about what laws would apply.)

I'm keeping my L$ in your trust, Zeppi, and I think others should too.

Let us know what happens.

As a followup -- I realize it wasn't just GOM security policies involved here, but also the possible (and I stress POSSIBLE) collusion of other parties, which at this point, isn't proven. I'll refrain from accusing and foaming at the mouth until the truth is known. However, if it does come out that other entities were involved, and this is a proven fact, I'd be sure to not conduct business with them, or any third-party involved with them either.

Hear, hear! I second this notion.

Or should I say, "I endorse this idea and/or suggestion".

The main reason I deal exclusively with GOM is that :

a) their integrity is beyond reproach
b) they are competent businessmen (with a great relationship with LL)
c) they are technically savvy

I suggest that everyone just be patient, and this will work itself out.

- Ace

A lot of people I know, myself included, who come from a more traditional MMORPG background already refuse to deal with IGE because of their blatently unethical and often forbidden (by the rules) practicies in other MMORPGs, along with the fact they will quite happily entirely destroy the world they are dealing with for the real players as long as they make it out with a few bucks.

For me their guilt or innocence in this particular incident is only a technicality...

If IGE has to deal with people accusing them of all sorts of unethical practices whenever a problem comes up, maybe they should stop actually doing them the rest of the time.

To the people saying "You can't accuse IGE, you have no proof"... Well, your right I suppose. I don't. But you gotta figure there is a reason so many people assume IGE is involved right off the bat. If you have a known criminal living in your neighborhood, who is blatently unrepentent about his actions, wouldn't you tend to assume he probably had something to do with your house being robbed, even if you couldn't prove it?

Human nature.

TOTALLY true.

Yes, it is one matter wether somebody acts within the rules or against the rules. If you play one game and the TOS clearly says that buying/selling game items and currency is TOS violation then selling game currency is one exploit and illegal activity.

I have played games before and have been richest person on server in two of those games. I have never sold my items or currency in those games though, because it would have been unfair, one exploit and against the rules. I could have easily made 10000 US$ or more on EBay by just selling my inventories, but decided to let one game be one game and not to break the rules.

Hang on a second! First off, my post was made on the GOM forums. It was transfered here by somone else. If I had have wanted it posted here, I would have posted it here. I don't want to get into discussions here, and this will be the last you hear from me in this thread.

Second, I said that the scammer was clearly "coordinating closely with the IGE gang" - not in collusion with them. In all my dealings with IGE (and your mileage may vary), they have taken at least a half hour just to get their attention. The last time, it took about 3 hours for them to come back and tell me that they didn't want to do business with me anymore - and another 10 or so for my $1500+ refund.

For someone to clear over $2000 worth of L$ in 2 hours or so indicates that IGE was prepared for the sale - ie. the scammer had set up the buy. Again, based solely on my history of delays with them.

As well, this scam was run through multiple throw-away day-old SL accounts. Tom and I regularly audit transactions through new accounts and something like this would have set off the warning bells quite quickly. Truth be told, Tom happened to be awake when it started and was able to shut them down the first time.

But here's a question for you? Why wouldn't IGE get curious about a slew of sequential sales from day-old throw-away accounts? Especially one named "iownjoo Somebodyrather"? GOM audits and there's only 2 of us. Hell, we've shut down people that were trying to scam IGE! Why can't IGE audit? They have a hell of a lot more resources than us.

And yes, LL has confirmed that the funds went straight into IGE's accounts. Of that I have proof. And I have the multiple chargebacks against us as proof that the purchases were made fraudulently.

A very simple solution here is to have LL reverse the L$ payments to IGE and to have IGE reverse the PayPal payments to the scammer. That way the fraud is averted and the scammer loses out. That was my suggestion. I'm not suggesting that IGE take the loss. PayPal reversals work both ways.

I trust LL will arrive at a good solution for everyone involved. At least I hope so. This was a big hit for us, and we weren't the only ones scammed.

If you would like to continue this discussion with me, please send me email. I don't wish to drag this out in these forums.

Zep

Are you offering a reward for the name of the bandit? I hear there is a new private investigator service in secondlife maybe they can figure it out for you zeppi.