Prim limit question

I have lived in Federal since early May, and the region has always stayed between 50-60% prim usage. Over the past week, the prim usage has shot up to 95%, in part because of a monstrously large club being built. As I have four builds in Federal, I am curious if anything has been done in version 1.1 to raise the 10,000 prim cap on a sim. Shipley and Federal are now almost full, and moving is not a possibility for me - I just want to continue to be able to build. I am not wasteful with prims - I am always finding ways to reduce prim count and use textures for complex designs, but when you have someone else dramatically increasing the prim count in a sim, it becomes very frustrating.

Hmm I know whatcha mean... I used to work in my yard in Tehama but now the max limit is hit and I can't rez anything (i haven't even really decorated my interior with furniture yet really). Everytime I have to rez something to test etc, I end up flying a sim over to a non maxed one to rez. Kinda bad since I used to be able to do it on my own property

I believe the prim limit will be raised to 15k when they move to the new havok 2 engine... it used to be scheduled for version 1.2 but i think they postponed it?

As far as I know Havok 2 is still SL 1.2....

A higher prim limit would be very nice, assuming the servers could handle it. If they can't then it will suck.

Clementina is at 99% prim usage, so I can sympathize.

I did notice something curious when the sim was at 100%: I derezzed a linked set, but then could not rez it again. It claimed the server was full, even though just a second before it had held that same linked set. However, I was able to rez single prims one at a time, until I had more than were in the linked set.

You know it's bad when you can't even rez your front door or your auto lights!

<Another Clementina max-prim victim, who's gonna be simplifying his house *even more* tonight>

I'm glad this problem has been brought up - it's bothered me for some time. First come first served object usage just doesn't seem to work.

The only solution to this I can think of is for the system to limit object usage to a percentage equal to the amount of land each resident owns. A good premise for this is that the more land you own on a sim, the more you benefit the sim by lowering taxes for everyone who lives there. So increased object usage (again, in proportion to land ownership) acts as a 'reward' for lowering the taxes of everyone on the sim.

On the other hand, object usage is solely a 'cost'. There are no benefits to it that I can see. I can find no negatives to using objects in proportion to the amount of land you own. But I can find only negatives to using more.

Are there positive effects to using more objects that I'm not seeing? I know there's an argument that more objects = better looking build, but that's subjective... there are just as many people I'm sure who feel that more textures/fewer objects = better looking build.

Personally, I see the problem as getting worse. It seems there are more people generating objects to 'reserve' object usage. What are some other solutions?

Thanks,
Candie

Nice idea Candie

I 3rd Candie's proposal, very good idea.

There is just no room for someone to buy a 4x4 plot and rez a few hundred objects on that plot. while others suffer from not being able to open a shop or build a nice house.

The only possable draw back I can see is, most shops have alot of pimes associated with them, but I think its still a good trade off. as it would force everyone to limit themselves on what and how much they put on display.

Also another idea is a scripted interactive build. If more people do this the prim usage wont be such a problem all around, and coupled with Candie's idea would also improve sim performance.

What I mean is this:

Have a sensor script that once an AV is detected the building rezzes. When the AV is gone the building derezzes.

Also having a object hidden out of view with preload sounds and the preloading textures trick would help in lag time during the rezzing events.

If ya don't know how to have textures preload there is a few ways to do it. I only know one.

Have a hollowed cut cube .5x.5x.5 in a area that the most av's would see b4 seeing your build, hidden underground or in another object.

This object would have a different texture for each face it has, you put a copy of the textures you use on your build.

If anyone knows other ways, please post em, we all need to do our part to improve the playability.

If done then the ratio of land to objects would be 2.44 prims per square of bought land. Or 1 prim per 6.5 square meters. And what about attachments and vehicles of people who own no land in a sim? Do I need to own a 9sq * 9sq plot in every sim just so I can drive my 20 prim car around?

I was referring only to those who live on a sim, as that's where the problem lies. 'Temporary' objects such as vehicles and attachments would function as they do now - if there's room, you can rez; if there's not, you can't.

The only problem with rezing objects as needed as that they come up with modify permissions turned on, and there's no way via script to turn them off. Visitors can take, delete, and modify you stuff then.

Given a commodity in fixed supply (the prim capacity of a sim) and a variable demand, how does a real-world market compensate for the imbalance? By varying the price, of course.

I propose that the object tax be variable, based on the prim usage of the sim. If usage is over 90%, the tax is doubled; if over 95%, it's doubled again. If usage is under 75%, taxes are halved. (I'm not married to those specific numbers, tweak them as you think appropriate. But you get the idea.) This would increase the incentive to minimize prim usage, and create an incentive to move complex builds to lower-usage sims.

Okay, I know a lot of people get itchy all over when anyone says "tax". (And I sympathize; why do you think I chose the name "Liberty", after all?) But really, the commodity in question is private property (server capacity, owned by Linden Lab), so what we're really talking about isn't a tax; it's *rent*.

So if you want a fixed object tax, regardless of the prevailing market conditions, what is it you're really advocating?

Rent control.

Okay, putting on my flame-proof suit now...

That would be hugely unfair to everyone since adding prims above 90% would double everyone in the sim's taxes for something they didn't do. I could see altering the cost to rez though.

My apologies then, I had assumed you intended some automated system / built in system or limit.

On that assumption (automated system) how do you tell permanant from temporary at time of rez? Or do you? Do you prevent a person from rezing 1 too many items for land they own or do you de-rez it after the excess prims have been in world for more than X time? Or does someone with no land in a sim get a more flexible limit than someone with land in the sim? And how do you define live on a sim? If I own 1 square of land do I live there? What if I own no land but 300 prims (in the general store, for example)? Or what about group projects? Does the land need to be split up then? I guess thats not too much of a hassle.

And what of my Arcades? I even just thought of this. I own the land under my Arcades and I lease out pads for other people to put games on. Will that no longer work if they don't own some 'compensation land' somewhere else in the sim? That will exponentially increase the cost for someone to put a game there, they might as well build on their own land.

I am not attacking anyone here. I am attacking the idea. I don't think hard limits will work. There are too many other cases. Renting, attachments, vehicles are just the cases that come to mind first. Group builds might also have problems, although that may be aleviated with some of the controls comming out tomorrow.

I do think there should be something done, but I favor the direction of increasing the prim limit, creating 'City Sims' (4 sims each 128m*128m in a 'Sim' sized block), automated moving tools (take a 'plot' into inventory ... that would be crazy cool), variable object rez costs (although that has problems too).

But everyone who takes up prim capacity is part of the overload problem, not just the latecomers. If one user has thousands of objects, and another comes along and creates his first prim, which happens to push that sim over the threshhold, is it fair that that one-prim user should pay the price for another's abuse?

The "unfairness" might be mitigated by having each user's first (say) hundred prims taxed at the regular rate; or a prim allotment based on land ownership (buy a plot of land, build X number of prims tax-free or at the lower, fixed tax rate). Or make it progressive, so that a higher tax rate applies to your 5000th prim than to your first.

But the main problem is the disconnect between the demand for prim capacity and the cost. Anything that doesn't address that is not an adequate solution.

Very good opposing views here this has to be one of the most productive civil discussions of the economy/system limits I've seen yet.

On that note I see your point Ama, Maybe everyone has a base number of primes they can create anywhere they dont own land? Not really sure how to overcome that issue, almost too good of a point hehe.

Object tax based on sim usage...hmm I like the idea but I think that everyone in the sim should be effected by the changing prime count. Not just newcomers. If we tax newcomers we (SL) definatly wont grow.

I hear your point Chip. But in sims where there is alot of builds that overuse primes they would be pushed to build more efficiently. And adjusting the cost per prime only is like the expensive land sims. If you can afford the cost to buy and recover from it, you have no incentive to reduce the server load.

All ideas are helpful I am not saying that any of them are bad. Its great minds working together that make things work.

I still think one prime blob av's would reduce lag lol j/k

If someone who has a lot of objects is able to pay the tax on them then they must be earning money... and therefore providing a service to the community by being very social, hosting events, selling things, and so on. The system is set up to reward those who do more than just build for themselves. I currently pay over 10k in taxes every week, 6k of which is over and above my stipend and bonus. With your plan someone could move into Freelon and build an extravagent house (as is their right) and my tax deficit would suddenly be 12k without me personally having done anything, causing my entire empire to collapse. Fun! If you're in a sim that has object usage above 90%, move. There are still plenty of sims that aren't that full.

I don't think it's a question of efficiency of building. Anyone is welcome to build as prim-heavy as they like so long as they are doing enough to bring in income and afford the tax. Building style is purely subjective. Some people might find this selfish, but I don't feel it's my responsibility to make sure others have prims to build with. It's only my responsibility to stay within my own means.

Ok I was reading though and while I agree the "Land = Prim count" isn't a finished answer to this dilema, I was looking at the numbers used earlier and think it is a bit less restricting than Ama stated. Anyhow correct my math if it is wrong.

A Sim is 256 meters accrost.
Each 'square' of land is 4^2 meters.
(256 / 4 = 64) There are 64 purchasable squares.
The generic prim limit is 10,000 prims.
(10,000 / 64 = 156.25)

One square of land would alot you usage of 156 prims in the sim. Every 4 squares of land would net you 1 additional prim from the remainder.

Problem: with only 64 purchasable plots in a sim, there are a lot more players than there are purchasable plots. So not a feasable stand alone solution.

Well, for the record, I am the "offender" in question in Federal I'm on contract for someone that wants a very large, decorative build... A greek temple, as a matter of fact.

It's big. Real big. The main prim usage is in the columns... I'm taking a look at them as we speak, to cut down the amount of them somewhat. I didn't realize Federal was at the prim limit. Sorry

But, on the other hand... there shouldn't be another artificial cap on prim usage. What if I'm building for something in a Sim, and your "land for prims" system kicks in? I'm not going to buy the land off of someone, build it, then release it and have them claim it... that's just silly and an extra layer of hassle.

It would also prevent temporary things from being built on-the-fly...examples to friends, for instance, when you're 20 Sims away from your property. Not having land int he Sim makes it nigh-impossible with the proposed system.

There really isn't anything wrong with first-come, first-served. If your'e running out of prims to use, there's oodles of Land north of Tan. Huge stretches just waiting to be developed.

One thing that would help, though, is a way to delete stuff from users who don't play SL anymore and are generally an eyesore... there's still parts of a library in Slate, just hovering there, wasting about 20 prims. The owner, I've never seen in-game, ever.

Anyways, my opinion as a builder is: the current system is fine, please please don't change it

LF

Here's a strange idea for you - maybe sims could run on a sort of "brushfire" ecology. Absent human intervention, many ecosystems have adapted to fire as a means of cleaning out old dead plant material and recycling its nutrients back into the soil for a new generation.

So, here's how that could work in SL:

The Lindens could announce on any sim that has been at 99%+ prim capacity for more than a couple of weeks that a Brushfire will be started. Each player has a week to decide what to pack up and save. Then all the prims in the sim are swept away. Smart and active players will be able to redeploy their builds in short order, while those that put up stuff and just left it there after quitting the game would find their stuff gone.

It wouldn't be fair to do this without making it a well known part of the game far in advance, but it would solve the problem of prims being used up and then left to rot.

As with nature, this fate could be avoided by intelligent intervention. A neighborhood association could work to keep the prim count down, such as has successfully been done in Slate.

An approach such as this might be more fair than raising taxes, since it benefits those who remain active and cooperative, regardless of their income.

problem with brushfire...

It doesn't take into account very nice builds by people that no longer play the game... for instance, the clock tower in Tan. It would be forever removed by the Brushfire, never to be seen by anyone again. And a shame, too... that thing is a landmark in Tan.

LF

I think your math is wrong, each sim as 256m * 256m, each square is 4m * 4m. Each sim is 256m * 256m = 65,536 sq meters, or 64 plots * 64 plots = 4096 purchasable plots. Means 65,536sq meters / 10,000prims = 6.55 sq meters / 1 prim or 10,000 prims / 4096 plots = 2.44 prims per plot.

100 prims per plot would require about 410,000 prims per server.

Oh their 64 to a side?

Ok my bad