Dark Life -- the tedium.

Ok well I was in THREE large guilds and they all agreed that grinding was fun so there.

Where's the fun in double clicking on a bad guy if you never have to run away?

Oh I certainly don't disagree about its prevalence. The question is, why?

This is perhaps the most significant part of the issue that we're analysing, the merits and replaceability of extended level grinding in MMOGs. Several people here have in effect tried to claim that the following is true:

but while this may have the merit of being funny, it's obviously flawed logic, ie. merely word association and not any kind of correct logical inference.

I did at least try to put the argument on less shakey ground by saying what my fellow guildies have felt and expressed time and again over 4 years, but as Jack pointed out indirectly, he simply doesn't believe me.

Oh well, that's life I guess.

Unless someone wanted to code a non-linear advancement system, the best way to hide the tedium of a linear advancement system is to make the world immersive enough that people don't see the treadmill.

If you have scripted quests and whatnot that reflect the lore of a hand-crafted and thought-out world, some players will become so absorbed in what they're doing and forget that it's just to see the next level/whack the next foozle, etc.

Some won't. So speed up your levelling curve. The question, however, for a smaller base of players (i.e. meta-MMOGs inside SL), is what emphasis do you place on player retention? On some level, you could design just for those who currently and play Dark Life, which would maintain your players at a semi-constant level, giving normal churn. Additionally, SLs own subscriber churn comes into play, but that's only because you can't sub to Dark Life ala carte. Problem is that if you turn up the levelling curve too high, people will "win" your game and be stuck looking for an overall purpose. Granted DL doesn't have to be a "stand alone" MMOG and, as such, doesn't need to be as feature-deep as main market MMOGs. But it would be cool to see it turn out that way. Sounds like the custom armor/weapon stuff could be nifty. Someday I'll have the scratch to play...someday.

Another way to approach it would be to make a meta-MMOG in SL that reduced things like grind, etc. and were immersive, which would hopefully retain players and draw new ones in.

I also agree that DL needs to be branded better if it's going to grow.

Anyway, just my two cents and whatnot.

I like that, Barrister. Yes indeed, deep immersion may really be the key to this.

I would sum it in four words: "Path of Least Resistance."

It's simply easier for people to understand these systems if they're so cut-and-dried... at the expense of depth or potential. I've been talking with a friend concerning another game's recent addition of a quest creation system (out of SL). You would be amazed how shallow this appears against what's provided in Second Life.

Why prevalent? It's just simpler and streamlined.

Why not just go on a half hack and slash, half time, half content system.

I recently played a game (in irc) where XP was rewarded on hack-n-slash, number of lines posted, and also a monthly incerase. Granted the Hack-n-slash rewarded more yield but it could be tweaked accordingly.

Also there is always the point based system like GURPS uses. You get "points" instead of Xp and points gets you abilities. Points are based upon the situation and if you follow your character correctly.

When I made a small version of Everquest it was quite popular. Sure you could make money off it so I guess the prime audience I got were newbies that would rather bash snakes for 2 bucks than to sit in a casino for hours waiting for the money ball. I am assuming people enjoyed it else I don't see why they played it so much. I know I enjoyed making it. The only reason it got shut down was that people were playing 24/7 and a buck or two every now and again isn't that much until its draining your account all day long. Tedious can be fun if you are getting something out of it. Earning levels, armor, money, that was the fun part. But you can't earn those things without bashing the snake on the head.

Grind - interesting subject and the major stumbling block of all MMORPG's. You think there is tedium in Dark Life? go play Lineage2 for a week and learn the TRUE meaning of tedious.

The problem with 'levels' in games is that it really doesnt mean your better than anyone else - it just means that you either play more often or you've played longer than the person lower than you - its not an indication of your skill.

Further - it also means that your doing nothing original,it means your following in someone else's footsteps doing the same thing and killing the same monsters as the person a level above you.

MMO's are slowly moving away from the grind and towards social interaction,take a look at the ongoing developement of Middle Earth Online as an example,moving more towards rewarding you for the way that you interact with those around you.

Grind is the death of any game,go take a look at Sonys Star Wars Galaxies - George Lucas's epic fantasy inhabbited by 14yr old kids who say 'd00d' far too much.

Dark Life is an admirable project,truely it is,but if I want action I'll go play something thats responsive and fluid and SL just isnt capable of lending those two features to any MMORPG no matter how good the intentions.

SL may not be capable of it NOW, but that's why so many of us are trying to get the interactivity improved through the gentle pressure of Feature Suggestions -- for example, all 3 of my sig links are in some way relevant to this.

And I seem to recall generally positive noises from Philip et al on SL's ability to host interactive events, so there is hope for the future I think.

That's why I don't really buy the "Don't bother with DL" suggestion. Any problems with it should be fixable either through feedback to the DL game designer (which this thread is, after all) or feedback to LL, which we're doing all the time.

I know that darklife isn't far in development yet, but MMORPG's are not about the grinding. The exp-system is only there to reward people who play a lot. A MMORPG should start getting fun after you leveled up a few, and keep getting more fun due to increased complexity. This is how I look at MMORPGS

IMAGINATION
The world of a MMORPG should be a place where you can easily imagine (yourself having) heroic adventures. The names of the objects, monsters and places generally have names that people assosicate with adventure (LOTR names etc.). And magic, for example, refers to the common fantasy of having special 'powers'. MMORPG's ranges from muds, where you have to read your way into the world, to high-detailed beautifull worlds like WoW.
People with a great imagination might actually prefer a less detailed world, because it leaves more to the imagination, and because they are more likely to meet people with the same level of imagination (the rest is playing WoW )
Even in a very very small MORPG like darklife you can still have fun, if you don't "move your avatar to coordinates 30,50 on Navora SIM and let the script logic higher the EXP-variable" but "venture alone into the scary woods with your brand new shiny sword to engage in a dangerous but brave battle, hoping to find a rare shield".

It's a form of escapism. Being a programmer of a small MORPG it's very easy to see the underlying logic of any MMORPG. But when I feel the need to escape a little from reality, it's easy enough to play UO for a while and after 15 minutes or so I forget the logic and enjoy the virtual adventure.

If you consider the Exp-advancement, you can look at it from two view: either you say 'the game tries to hide the simplistic and boring EXP-advancement' or 'you need to have a little imagination to see the game that lies BEHIND the EXP-advancement'. I prefer the latter....


MULTIPLAYER
Any multiplayer game is by default fun People are an endless source of entertainment in games. The fact that MMORPG's are multiplayer make them a better form of escapism then single player RPG's like Final Fantasy(because you deal with 'real' people) and in theory you can enjoy any multiplayer game endlessly because of the endlessly changing opponents, who keep trying diffrent tactics and not falling for the same 'trick' twice in a row
Guilds can also be a lot of fun. You are part of a group, have the same 'enemies', act and look like your guild-mates etc. etc. basically everything you like about being in a group in real life you can also enjoy in a MMORPG-group.

LINEAR ADVANCEMENT
While you discuss the grinding that comes with this type of gameplay it has some major advantages. People want to be better the the rest of the players. Most players, if they see someone has found a better weapon then they want it too. All you have to get better is play more. It CAN be a major releaf after playing shoot-em-ups, when you keep playing but you just can't seem to get better then some other player.
Because you are playing with other 'real' people and you have imagined yourself being a certain someone in that world you probably want to get better then the rest (as in real life). You might know the feeling of 'respect' you get when you are a n00b in a MMORPG and you meet a high level player who can kill you in a second... you want to be like that too; and you can, just keep playing
However next to the linear advancement there are also tactics and character development in MMORPGS.

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT
Once you imagined yourself into the MMORPG it's fun to be able to create your own character. Not only by it's appearance and playstyle, but also by the character development the MMORPG offers. In Darklife it's pretty obvious, but flexible: put the levelup points in the stats you want to higher. If you put points in every stat you probably get less strong then other players. So you have to choose between healer, warrior, mage etc. This together with your outfit and your game style can make you feel like a unique individual in the MMORPG world. While being a healer might not make you very strong, you are probably very welcome to take part of group adventures and you might feel you make a contribution to the group that other (warrior) characters cannot make.

TACTICS
Most MMORPG's are not only about the linear advancement systems. Altough not as much tactics as Comand and Conquer, most fighting systems in MMORPG's are all about tactics. Also what monsters you fight, what points you use to levelup, what equipment you buy, what potions you bring, how you fight a monster (and in the future of darklife: how you battle other players); it all comes down to tactics. A level 20 player CAN be much better then a level 20 players.

There are probably more factors that make a MMORPG fun, and they are probably diffrent from each individual. The concept has proven itself anyway, and I think I am doing a good job trying to make a MORPG in the limited, unreliable and slow environment of Second Life.
I do not claim that DarkLife is any match for real games, but before you post more negative comments on DarkLife, consider that it's still very much in progress, I think I just finished a base system for character advancement and monster-logic. I am doing a lot of work in speeding up the creation of monsters/magic/equipment so it should get less boring in the next few weeks
After that come the many feature that I have in mind (PvP, tournaments, battle arena ala FF7, crafting systems), that might one day make DarkLife a fun game even for people with little imagination and people who don't love MMORPG's in gerenal...

Excellent analytical post, Mark! And I agree with every single part of it too.

This is precisely the point of the thread though.

While grinding may not be the point of the MMOG, and while the exp-system should be there only to reward people who play a lot as you say, the reality of the situation is the exact opposite.

Nothing is achievable in DL without very extended exp-grinding since you cannot train your character nor have money for items without killing for both exp and money, and they both come extremely slowly. And you can only earn the exp and hence the levels that give the existence of your character any purpose by repetition of the same actions again and again hundreds and thousands of times, with zero novelty.

Well, zero novelty is tollerable to quite a considerable extent, but there is a limit imposed by sheer human fatigue, exhaustion, and brain death from mindless repetition.

When it takes a whole day of intensive killing for a mere level 10-12 or so to gain a level then you know the exp reward is wrong, by at least an order of magnitude. When the many hundreds of kills per level even for such newbies rapidly turns into thousands then you can clearly see that the xp-per-level algorithm is heading stratospheric, and it becomes obvious that the underlying design is clearly grind-focussed, not gaming-focussed.

Gaming is about fun and challange --- and this does NOT mean the challange of holding your eyelids open. Player hardship and physical distress is not gaming challange.

So while the expressed philosophy is absolutely admirable, how come that the reality is so different in this very key aspect?

Strangling the child at birth seems odd to me. Most MMOGs do their strangling as one approaches the end game, because by then the players can see the wonders ahead and they're less likely to give up in disgust at the extended grinding, even when it's destroying their lives.

You have a good point about the exp reward. I noticed this a while ago while calculating some projections for level 50 players. It turned out they would make the most EXP with level 20 monsters, and it wasn't much.

Therefor I recalculated the EXP-awards and I lowered the base damage for monsters. If I'm correct you SHOULD be able to fight higher level monsters, and gain much more EXP. This should solve the two problems you adress: endless repetition and slow EXP gain. The solution would now be: try high level mosnters. You won't be killed that easy, but they are difficult to beat (that being the not-boring solution), and the amount of EXP you gain gets much better.

I changed this over a week ago I think, so you might be talking about the older darklife exp-system. Ofcourse the highest level monster right now is still too low for some players, but adding more monsters (which can be done fast enough with some tools I made) should solve this soon.

P.s. I might have made the attack/defense stats a little to high on the monsters, so DarkLife players who played recently (this week), give me some opinions: let me know how you feel about the mosnters. Do you think it's 'do-able' to attack monsters that are higher level then you or is it still to difficult? Are you getting enough EXP on high level monster? just let me know how you think I can improve gameplay!

That's absolutely excellent news Mark, thank you.

Endless tedium is in nobody's interest whatsoever, not the players, nor the designers, nor the promoters. It's great to see that it's being addressed. I'll dive back in and reduce the numbers of those damn malaria-spreading mosquitos again.

Having dispensed with that issue, I'd love to see some more gameplay elements to add variety to the (inevitable) killing. But that's for a different thread.

That's absolutely excellent news Mark, thank you.

Endless tedium is in nobody's interest whatsoever, not the players, nor the designers, nor the promoters. It's great to see that it's being addressed. I'll dive back in and reduce the numbers of those damn malaria-spreading mosquitos again.

Having dispensed with that issue, I'd love to see some more gameplay elements to add variety to the (inevitable) killing. But that's for a different thread.

By the way, this thread on grinding tedium is somewhat related to one rather interesting defining property of MMOGs, namely whether they embody an "Economy of scarcity and life of hardship" (EverQuest is an obvious example) or an "Economy of plenty and life of fun" (Anarchy Online is probably archetypical there, although far more people know WoW now).

My meagre 10-12 level exposure to Dark Life isn't really sufficient to know where it stands in the spectrum of suffering.

It seems as though things have been resolved for Morgaine's explicit problem (tedium in Darklife), but I'm going to take another whack at the issue as a whole for all two of you that are reading what I post.



This is a fair assessment. I would like to note that many games place huge emphasis on "The Endgame" - then happily throw tedium at the player. This is a path not to follow. Rather, the "endgame" should start at level 1 - and progress until the end. If the player is not having fun at all times, you should take a look at the issue.

One way to address this is to add "little things" that enhance gameplay. These range from humorous quirks in gameplay, like having a giant gingerbread man mob, to minigames and other meaningless tasks for the player to take part of completely away from the actual "game." This layer of detail adds much to the longevity, and fun, of the overall product.



To sum this, I would say gameplay in many ways hinges on suspension of disbelief. If your fourth wall is shattered too easily, too often, something is wrong. As such, the best way to go about it is to put yourself where the player is and ask yourself "how would I feel about this scenario."

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choire here. However, try to avoid looking at the issue from the code perspective in mechanics and design unless you know something is too much for SL to handle. I say this because thinking like a coder or businessman and not a player is a fundamental mistake made in the MMOG business. I sincerely hope you've escaped that one.



Player interaction has several pros and cons that need to be balanced. I doubt I need to discuss exactly how - so long as you're apt at balancing them.



Remember, I wasn't knocking linear advancement as bad. Rather, I feel it's a dated necessity - something that's inherently flawed in its potential, yet far easier to understand, progress, and develop a "style" within. It's also easier, as I mentioned, for players to have a point to achieve. This downplays the sensory overload that a title like Second Life can cause.



Again, this hinges on that fourth wall - and in this case, variety as well.



This is the point that I find most limiting in the traditional MMORPG system. Tactics are virtually boundless in an environment like Second Life. However, the traditional MMO focuses players on a minute set of skills and abilities and tasks them to "min-max" with them. Many people thrive on this (including myself), but for what you receive in unique use of those skills, you lose in scope.

No dev alone can account for everything that a player wishes to achieve in a finite system. Though, MMORPG creators have my respect for trying.

That's my (latest) $0.02. Remember, I did not "bash" on your product - I think you're doing a great job.

You made a large number of great points there, Jeffrey. I'll focus on just two of them.

This is a tremendously valuable observation.

There was almost no humour or cuteness in EverQuest --- perhaps Sony thought it would lessen in some way their hard, cruel, bleak world. And how little we remember of it now, as a result ... the only thing that springs to my mind is Fippy Darkpaw running into Qeynos to meet his death every 10 minutes.

I contrast that very vividly with Anarchy Online's very liberal sprinkling of humour throughout their world, even bringing the level 220's back into the old training backyards to experience again the cute level-one leets shouting "R U NUBI?" or "GIVE ME YOUR SWORD" or "I'LL GET MY MAIN" when you attack them.

Or the graphitti they spraypaint into their subway dungeons, actually advertising EULA-illegal 3rd-party add-ons. And it continues in varying degrees all the way up. It's good to be able to laugh at oneself, and to share a joke with the community of players.

Yes please, make your worlds memorable in more than just the technical and artistic ways. Give players an experience that they can look back on with warmth and nostalgia, long after they've acquired their godlike powers at level 100 million.

This point sparked in me a question and possibly an alternative approach to MMOGs in SL: Why do designers in traditional MMOGs try to think of everything in advance? Well there might be several reasons to do with wanting full world control, but there is also another very important one: it is not possible in traditional MMOGs for players to create their own skills or facilities, so they have to be pre-designed for them. Well, that's clearly not a problem in SL !

So, here's an alternative solution space: we live in a fully programmable world where we can build our own empowerments, so don't pre-design these into embedded MMOGs. Instead, set the basic operational parameters of the beasties (which includes XP and loot drops, plus their fighting capabilities), plus an API for interacting with them, but leave entirely open the provision of equipment for player characters, so that they can be scripted by anyone in SL, or more commonly by experts as usual.

This could make SL's MMOGs a completely different kettle of fish from most others. I'm not sure where it would lead, but it would certainly be interesting.

*Kisses Morgaine* Weeeeeeelll said! *realizes she may have mono* *runs away*

I had thought about this as well a few months back whilst becoming disenfranchised with DL's grind. The only significant difference I see in the underlying mechanics from a DL or Simcast versus an open architecture is preventing the "well, I can script my own weapons so they're all 2xINFINITY damage!!!!smeg!!!1111one" folks from having their way. with the more balanced players.

When I started playing online games, a great deal of the fun was simply the fact that you could interact with other people. Eventually, the content, along with that interactive and competitive aspect, was enough to hook me for quite some time (and a general interest in game dev didn't hurt).

However, level grinding eventually ceased to be competitively fun; it became a job. 72 hours in PoFire, at the tables, because now you can get to lvl 70.

And then there was more AA.

Although I respect the efforts of DarkLife, I wonder about it in the same way a lot of people wonder about the Vorago I suppose.

Why would you come to SL to play that kind of game? There are way, way sexier places to level grind or get your gun on.

I have two different (alternative) answers to this commonly raised spectre of infinite power.

The first one is "So what?". When we join a MMOG at level 1, are we in any way fazed by the fact that there are already players at the highest possible level, who walk with impunity through the boss room of dungeons where just the puppies would kill us with a frown? No, of course not. Our fun comes from whatever it is we choose to pit ourselves against. As long as people don't interfere with my fun, good luck to them. (This approach requires dungeon instancing to prevent interference from overpowered players.)

The second answer tackles the issue with technology: provide weapon interfaces at the gaming API, so that if (for example) you want to craft a weapon with 100 X the usual damage, fine, but it'll take 100 X as long to recharge itself for the next attack, so damage capabiliity becomes a tradeoff. Or, give high weapon damage a greater chance of destroying loot, to create a disincentive for use of excessive force. I'm sure there are many other solutions of this kind possible. Ultimately, the game designer is still in control, because damage is just a reward granted by mobs while you're fighting them.

"Unfairness" is usually a complaint made only by PvP players, which is not surprising since this inherently pits people against each other. This is why PvP should never be part of the same game as PvM ... it infects PvM worlds with a level of competitive nastiness that straight PvM worlds don't usually suffer, and it brings to designers the nightmare issue of "balance" which is almost entirely irrelevant to fun gaming in straight PvM.

That's where this is leading ...

No, I don't know what that means in practice either ... it's emergent, we can't know in advance.

Hmm... close.

I would say, however, that scripting an MMOG in Second Life should take into account many of the features SL offers. I think, while the scripts should be "closed" to prevent hacking, they should allow for certain additions. For example, a person should be able to customize an animation by dragging the animation they want into the object. Want a new sound? Same thing. Use this animation with a sword? Fine. As long as the actual damage behavior is fixed, it should be fine... right?

Same goes for spell effects, armor... etc. etc. It would be a fresh take on an old idea.

Ah, but I didn't mean that at all, Jeffrey.

I was thinking more along the lines of having no predefined limits whatsoever beyond those set by the mobs created by the game designer and activated through an API. Certainly no player equipment supplied by the game designer at all.

It would therefore turn into a completely emergent world, with a dynamic created by a constant battle between mob designers and player equipment designers. That would be pretty interesting, and potentially quite awesome.

Hm. This is starting to sound like Rausch.

Ahaha! *dies laughing*

*is teleported home*

No no, strictly PvM, not PvP.

And "death" on reaching zero in-MMOG health should teleport you into the zone graveyard, with appropiate music ...

That's not to say that it wouldn't be highly dangerous in an in-MMOG sense though. The mobs could be maniacally inimical to "human life", instantly descending on anyone emerging from the zone's safety shield. Might take great marshalling of forces to overcome them and force your way deeper into the zone.

Not like the placid hippie DL mobs ...