Dark Life -- the tedium.

Since one of the subjects that arises in SL discussions very frequently is creating MMOGs within the SL environment, I wonder what readers/players' views are on the tedium of XP grinding in level-based worlds?

Here is a short post I tacked on to the end of one section of Philip's blog:

It's easy to see the problems of course, but finding solutions is much harder.

Does anyone have any great insights on this?

Yeah, that its easier to complain than create?

<goes back to building>

Hopefully you've put Max Monde on ignore like I have.

Regardless, it's a really good question. I have to admit I found all MMOs tedious. I guess the difference between them and Dark Life is that they have more variety of content and options which breaks up the tedium.

I'm not sure SL lends itself very well to Dark Life. I think it lends itself better to tasks which encourage exploration, creativity, and socializing. These aren't really the major components of MMOs as far as I can see..

So I guess it begs the question - how did you know I posted? Or perhaps poor 'Max' is ignored and not 'Maxx'? I may never know, since you have me on ignore!

Also, I take a dim view of someone criticizing a well-executed concept, even if you do disagree with the inherent game-type.

I think the level grind is awfully tedious in any game, though it is a tradition in MUDs (The text-based games that pre-date many MMRPGs, for instance Everquest came out of a MUD). I prefer full roleplaying myself with storylines, and characters. Though Darklife is a well designed game, perhaps a storyline or some kind of spice to the level grind would do it some good.

As much as it may seem strange in a world like Second Life, many people enjoy and prefer more linear systems of advancement. This is a statement of fact - and has lead to the popularity of the level grind, the MMORPG, and many aspects of the real world as well.

The prevalence of the level grind is only one example of that linear structure, but it is the most prevalent when looking at something like an MMORPG. I would not knock Darklife, nor Simcast, for the persistence or longevity of this structure - it's a tried and true method that works, and the length of time required creates considerable deviation within the ranks (read as: levels). Furthermore, while Darklife might seem a bore to you in the level sense, I think the creators did a good job recreating the scope of an MMOG within a single (now two) sim(s). Same with Simcast.

At any rate, Morgaine, while I'll agree with your assessment of "why tedious level grinds?" - it's something that exists to cater to the narrow scope of options and min/maxing them that some people enjoy. Apples and oranges? Maybe.

I feel that the traditional MMORPG, as it exists, is in its twilight phase and systems created within places like SL will inevitably take over. That is, of course, a prediction.

Either way, more power to the devs of Simcast and Darklife, and any other name I missed, for their hard work. Even if you may not agree with it, they still work hard to gather many people to enjoy their game(s).

You're being hostile for no reason. If you'd read my post in an even-handed way, you'd have noticed that I even said myself:

Being a fan of something is great. But letting that love override any objective assessment and make you defend bad things turns fandom into fanboyism. Don't go there.

I made a perfectly reasonable comment and question. Tedious / excessive level grinding is not fun, it is tedium. So, what's the solution? Maybe some creative people can suggest one?

Simply reacting violently to the basic premise that tedium is not fun makes no sense, since the premise is obvious, or maybe even a tautology.

What's the solution?

Tautology: Tedium is not fun.
Question left unanswered: Is DarkLife tedious?
Answer from a DarkLife player: No.
New question left unanswered: Is that answer true for everyone?
Answer: No.
New question: Is this a problem?
Answer: Maybe. But the only ones who really know if it is or not are: Pirate, Mark, and their development team and maybe Sensual. If it is a problem, they either move to fix it, or they die out.

Given the above rather obvious observations, what's the *real* reason this thread exists? I'll speculate that you're not finding MMOGs around that you find fun. That's really your problem, and in a world that's built by its residents, I'm afraid it's up to you to; create something you enjoy playing, find someone or a group of people capable of making such a thing and have them make it for you (paying them in whatever way works), or lump it.

I played DarkLife a LOT over the holiday break. I shot up to level 25 or so and took some silly level of pride in how my character had several of the highest ratings of any character (which I am sure has since changed). Then the grind set in; aside from chopping up the same monsters over and over and over and over, there's just not much compelling (YET) about DL. Simcast may be better for having more complexity; I haven't tried it as a player to be strictly honest.

On some level, it was nice to custom make my own weapons and armor. That was minimally exciting for awhile, I guess.

Still, DL is very much a Work In Progress, and an exciting one for its potential. So far my post is coming off pretty negatively, but I want to emphasize that Mark and Pirate are doing DL better than I could / care to. They r teh R0x0r or something like that.

It strikes me that it might be much more appealing for users to have an RPG game FRAMEWORK versus a game proper. I don't derive much stimulation or actualization from hacking up my 8000th giant mantis, but maybe I could get some real fun out of having a game tag / scripted weapons adapted for more freeform gaming on *my land* with props and monsters *I make* and drop in the handy preconfigured scripts. Think of strapping on your handy backpack, sword in hand, and freeform rping with your buddies without being constrained by the DL server's lag, etc. Good times. I started selling mecha six weeks ago and far and away the most popular offering there is the Do It Yourself kit. I won't speculate on how that might mean my mecha for sale stink, but I think it has more to do with how folks are more interested in creating their own than conforming to premade things. I think I'm going offtopic, so I'll shut up, but I think that freeform RP scripting is a HUGE opportunity for some hardcore scripter to hammer out.

It's funny because as a child, I was very accustomed to repetitive, cyclical tasks. And so I played a lot of RPGs with level-grinding, or "treadmilling" as I've heard it referred to. As time went on, I became less and less interested in it -- but perhaps this will come full-circle again. I've come to places like DarkLife and SimCast for the atmosphere and to watch the excitement of other people slaying monsters and collecting loot. I haven't participated actively yet and donned a suit of armor over my bunny hide, but who knows... I'm leaving my possibilities open.

I bought a backpack, played for 20 minutes, got tired with killing rats, and left. Came back a few weeks later and had to buy another backpack that fixed bugs (!), then played for a while, got bored with killing rats...

I have no issues with leveling up, but DarkLife is all leveling and no game. To me, it isn't even remotely fun or atmospheric. I can't WAIT for SimCast to get up. Last time I was there I was demolished by how cool it looked. Just atmosphere itself lifted it above DL. yadNi has helped make a world that s far beyond what one would expect in SL.

Nearly right, Jillian, but not quite.

Nowhere did I state that DL was tedious. I said that the XP grinding was tedious, and even you yourself confirmed that this might well be a tautology. The question that I *did* try to get answered (but I've failed miserably) was, is there a way around this?

I think it's a bit early for conspiracy theories.

Quite the opposite is true. As I wrote in my post at the top of the thread, I found DL quite nice and charming. However, the level grind was tedious, and nobody but nobody can claim that repeating the same action many hundreds and then thousands of times isn't tedious.

I think it's pretty funny that nobody wants to confront this question about game design, just because I posed it within the context of DL. The thing is, in commercial MMOGs the explanation that is offered for the level grind is that it keeps paying customers around for longer. Well DL has no paying customers, so that explanation doesn't work here.

I'm quite intrigued by this.

Now you're just splitting fine hairs.

If you wanted to examine the question of how one might build a MMOG with less or no "XP grind" then you should have examined that question alone. Giving the question a specific context - DarkLife in this case - shifts the subject to "Is there a way to make DarkLife less tedious?" which isn't a fair question, since it trips into the subjective.

This is always a problem when discussing design. I note the problem is exacerbated by discussing design on a web forum or newsgroup.

Now, to answer the question: Yes, of course there is. Game design is all about focus. Current MMOGs tend to focus on leveling - graduation of power, really - and the result is an ongoing attempt to gain power and voila, XP grinding. Now, spiced properly, that works great.
Another MMOG I've played concentrated on teamwork. Members were rewarded with gadgets and game-money for playing the support role thier character class called for - IE, a medic who healed teammates, an engineer who built machinegun emplacements forhis team, a supply officer who made sure everyone had ammo.... they got the rewards. The hard part of a design like this is coming up with new goals for the teams to meet. This is made easier if you set up opposing goals for two or more teams, so they have to not only work toward a goal, but prevent another team from reachint thiers first, while the other team is also interfereing with thier eforts.
Conundrum games are also interesting. Puzzles that solve differently depending on how many people are working them. Set this in the context of an overall story, and VOOM, MMOG.

*shrug*

Seems obvious. What am I missing?

Um - look how you titled the thread.

I think I titled it exactly as intended: to ask very specifically about the tedium in Dark Life resulting from the dreadful XP grind (far worse than at least a couple of major MMOGs I know which are both noted for their XP grind tedium being excessive), and whether there is an alternative in game design.

I never expected such sensitivity over this.

What exactly is wrong about pointing out that repeating the same action again and again is tedious? Yes, even mentioning Dark Life in this context. It's true, isn't it? Why is a simple truth causing so much trouble?

Thanks for trying to answer the question, Jillian.

I'm going to stop being defensive about this, worrying that I might offend someone's sensitivities. If any of the many MMOGs that will arise in SL, including DL, can be made more enjoyable by highlighting to designers that excessive XP grinding is tedious, then this will have served a purpose.

This is a good analysis, although I was referring specifically to levelling games since they are the most common and most resemble DL. Nevertheless, the tedium of grinding is relevant to non-levelling aspects of MMOGs as well, for example the dreadful RSI-inducing tradecraft grind of EverQuest, which only recently became any less inimical to health by a factor of 5-10 through improved tradecrafting windows.

The key to removing the tedium of level grinding is to examine at least the three following elements, and find an appropriate balance, as far as I can see.

First, the actual repetition has to be reduced to sensible levels, which means levels that a person with average IQ will not find intollerably boring. After all, boredom is not fun gaming. So, this first aspect is a mattter of finding a reasonable ceiling to the number of times that an averagely equiped player has to (in this type of game) kill mobs of average difficulty in order to level. I think it goes without saying that many hundreds of kills is utterly unacceptable, if a game is intended to be non-tedious. If they were suitably challanging, maybe just a handful would be enough! (More on this below.)

The second element that really needs to enter the equation is the matter of diversity. If there is diversity in mobs that can be killed during a particular level, then having to kill more of them isn't quite as bad as when there is no diversity. However, mobs of different kinds usually entails mobs of different difficulties, but in most MMOGs players don't get more powerful mid-level so a change in mob type can be difficult to accomodate. This issue can also be relevant if the same types of mobs need to be killed over several levels --- the number of kills per level then needs to be reduced even further for players to retain their sanity, or at least their interest.

Finally, I think that creativity in designing diffferent types of encounter needs to play a larger role in game design for levelling games. The basic or classic "Target mob, activate weapon, heal yourself occasionally" type of encounter is so mindless that carrying it out just a dozen times begins to stretch interest and gaming challange to breaking point. The problem is certainly lessened when there are varied fighting styles possible, for example snare kiting, fear kiting, agro kiting, root-nuke, tank-heal, hit-run-heal, sniping, mezz-DoT, and various mob-charming techniques. The problem is also lessened when fighting gains a dynamic from interaction between people in a team.

Putting all these things together, it's not hard to imagine a levelling game in which encounters with mobs are complex and highly varied, requiring a range of different techniques to accomplish, and featuring different types of mobs with different fighting characteristics. In such a game, you might need just a few such interesting and very challanging encounters at each level, thus avoiding the tedium of mindless repetition that so pervades some of the classic MMOGs.

It certainly wouldn't be easy to achieve this successfully, and no doubt that is one reason why game designers have so often taken the simple option and hardwired an MO requiring extreme player tedium into a game design. But it's certainly not inevitable and unavoidable.

dang it Kage!!!!! shhhhhhh it's going to be atleast another 2 months before we are able to release this very thing!!! SHHHHHHHHH!!!!! lol

Since the idea is now expressed, I figured it was time for us to let the cat out of the bag I HAVE to finish some things in Kumori before I get back to it, but we have half of the equipment complete and 75% of the scripting complete. It WILL go BETA in May even if it kills me lol

Higbee sez:
dang it Kage!!!!! shhhhhhh it's going to be atleast another 2 months before we are able to release this very thing!!! SHHHHHHHHH!!!!! lol
/quote


Now that's pretty cool! Nay. Really cool. Keep us posted, Higbee!


I wonder, is there any lowhanging fruit for the DL developers to pluck with respect to enhancing the fun factor of DL? It is clear they've been working very hard on the underlying mechanics and the content; Osprey's clothing line in DL comes to mind. Maybe organized adventures against a few uberstrong npcs with strong roleplaying elements?

You know, if you'd started the thread this way, no feathers would have been ruffled.

Well, all the rpg's out there make me think there are plenty of people who like grinding. It might not be fun for you but there are enough people out there to make it a big business.

IMO DarkLife is underpromoted. It should be on the front page and stay there. It needs it's own home page. And it needs a way for people to buy "darklife" which is simply a branded version of the Second Life signup page.

That's odd. I have had end-game, top-level characters in the two MMOGs with quite possibly the worst reputation for excessive XP and tradecraft grinding requirements in existence. In all that time (and that means 2+ years of grinding to reach the end game in each of them), not one single person in the two major guilds to which I belonged (each guild having 150-200 members) ever expressed any joy or interest whatsoever in the mega XP grind. The vast majority loved the games but hated every minute of the utterly repetitive grinding, and quite a few couldn't take it and left -- some with broken homes and lives from it.

I would extrapolate from this to say that nobody at all enjoys it, single-figure IQs excepted.

The popularity of MMOGs stems from many things, but it doesn't stem from tedium, I can guarantee. They are probably hugely popular *in spite of* the tedium of the XP grind, which raises the interesting question of how much more popular they would be without it.

That's certainly possible, but from my own experience within major guilds, unlikely.

I have had end-game, top-level characters in the two MMOGs with quite possibly the worst reputation for excessive XP and tradecraft grinding requirements in existence. In all that time (and that means 2+ years of grinding to reach the end game in each of them), not one single person in the two major guilds to which I belonged (each guild having 150-200 members) ever expressed any joy or interest whatsoever in the mega XP grind. The vast majority loved the games but hated every minute of the utterly repetitive grinding, and quite a few couldn't take it and left -- some with broken homes and lives from it.

I would extrapolate from this to say that nobody at all enjoys it, single-figure IQs excepted.

The popularity of MMOGs stems from many things, but it doesn't stem from tedium, I can guarantee. They are probably hugely popular *in spite of* the tedium of the XP grind, which raises the interesting question of how much more popular they would be without it.

You realize there's way, way, way,way, WAY more than 400 people playing mmrpg's?




ROFL, everyone who doesn't think the way you do is dumb.. I get it. Classic.




It's not about the finish line sweety, it's about the journey. N'mkay?

Of course. But the people with whom we most interact in MMOGs are our fellow guildies, by a *huge* factor. We get to know them quite intimately, and we get to know what they feel about all the key issues in a game.

The other people in a virtual world, while numbering hugely more than in our own guilds, we don't get to know at all well, comparatively.

This is the only reason why I based my assessment of "Extended XP grinding: fun or tedium? on the absolutely incontestible in-guild verdict from two large guilds in two games over a very long period of time.

As a sample point, it's as good as I can do. It's certainly more objective than a single person's view.

Actually Morgaine, IQ has very little to do with people enjoying a level grind system. While it's very easy to attack intelligence, I've seen some rather intelligent people, including myself, subjected to the grind-and-pray format.

First, many of the more intelligent people find a way to minimize the grind. One way I did this was by multitasking - at one point I actually found myself playing through Zelda: The Wind Waker while letting my character level up in crafting. This scheme worked so well that I quickly became the premier crafter on that server of DAoC.

Second, as mentioned, many people prefer linear systems of advancement. This has been mentioned by the Lindens a couple times I believe, when people asked "what's the point of Second Life." Many people like having an end-goal fed to them instead of finding it themselves.

Finally, personality comes into play here. Many people are OCD, or enjoy the thrill of being first along a linear path. This can be quite independant of one's IQ.

The system, as I see it, is flawed. That's fine, but given many people prefer these systems of development - it's still prevalent. Best you can do is avoid these systems if they upset you, because I don't see them as ever (permanently) going away, even if we create them ourselves.

Meanwhile, I wonder what Pirate Cotton would say to all of this.