Are We Citizens or Children?

Which would likely be fantastic if they also didn't simultaneously pretend to have some "rules" to which they would like us *and* them to adhere to.

So, your assertion is that LL moderators *often* moderate capriciously and without regard for the TOS of the board?

I find that hard to believe. And if they don't what's the problem? Moderation of a message board will always involve judgement calls. And moderating a board is a LOT of work. More than most people can imagine.

Just my 2 cents....I've also seen some threads closed and had to shake my head in wonder. People we disagreeing but certainly not getting down and dirty and yes I too have felt that posters were being treated as children.

And I had to chuckle when Ulrika's post was locked. Sheesh, seems all very random and subjective.

First, "moderators" in this case is more accurately "moderator". And there are a few who would say this has passed the level of "assertion" through "conjecture" to "amply demonstrated historical fact".

I agree wholeheartedly that it is dirty, difficult, and distasteful work. Unfortunately LL views itself as both "fostering community" and "reasonably fair" which can, and has, been done elsewhere through more skillful moderation to great effect. My assertion is that what community does exist does so largely *despite* moderation activities.

This was certainly true for the period between January '05 and June '05. Although one might accurately say despite *lack* of consistent moderation activities.

I'm confused.

If LL has such rights because SL is merely a corporate product that they own, and SL is "only entertainment", and SL is not really a "virtual community" - since modern definitions of community universally including specific, plurality-defined rights and privileges - then we're all back to calling SL a "game"? Content is vapor, the economy is a suspension of disbelief, social interaction and commentary have no more weight than a chat bubble?

Wow. It's like watching Agassi and Federer at the U.S. Open, ramped up on speed. My neck hurts from watching the ball go back and forth between "game" and "real" in these kinds of threads.

If one assumes that distinct Linden first names implies distinct humans behind them there is certainly more than one person moderating the forums. Pathfinder and Jesse Linden have both intervened in the forums in addition to the regular moderator. In addition, there is a special moderator for the Scripting Library forum.

One should remember that in many, perhaps most cases, when the forum moderator takes action about a post the moderator is responding to bad post messages from customers.

When a moderator moves a thread and cites being off topic as the reason, it may be that they received a high number of bad post reports stating the post was off topic. The most probable cause of getting a large number of off topic bad post reports is that the post is in fact off topic.

If one gets a warning that a message contained a personal attack, it is entirely possible that they received bad post reports flagging a message as a personal attack. When poster A makes statements about person B that strike persons C, D, E, F, G etc. as so blatantly a personal attack with no place in a product discussion forum and specifically forbidden by the forum's guidelines that persons C, D, E et al make bad post reports, it's a good sign that the post actually was an inappropriate personal attack.

It's not surprising that those who repeatedly break the rules claim they don't see they are breaking the rules; jails are full of people who will tell you they aren't guilty. It's easier to blame "the man" for being an oppresor or claim that you were framed, weren't even in town, etc. than it is to take responsibility for your actions and the predictable consequences of them.

It's very easy to avoid having posts moved, edited, deleted, etc. and to avoid being suspended for repeated offenses.

Don't advertise in the general forum, don't insult the other customers in any way shape or form, post things that don't concern Second Life in general in the off topic forum to start with, don't cuss, don't use profanity, and don't discuss sex or use sexual terms to convey non-sexual ideas.If you want to wish someone well, yourself included, start the thread in the notices and well wishes forum. Don't discuss the moderator's decisions about your posts in the forum.

These ideas are so simple that I am sure that they are already understood by those who break them repeatedly. The decision to repeatedly break the rules of proper forum conduct is not made from ignorance, it is a willful choice made by people who want to misuse Linden Lab's resources for their own personal pleasure.

Any idea that is at all appropriate for discussion in a software product discussion forum can be expressed perfectly well without the slightest need to ever come even close to having any form of moderator action taken in reponse to one's posts.

Free speech was outlawed with the Prokofy ban. The forums have become a fun mini-game. We need a better blogging network for serious communications.

Totally true except that LL wants these to both be "community building" and nicey-nice. Those are mutually incompatible goals as human communities are far too complex to be devoid of conflict and human passions too volitile to always retain academic tenor.

I will grant that you can have both, but only at the cost of comprimising some aspects of the human animal. The game is called "Second Life" and unfortunately, life can (and likely should) be messy at times.

I find it amusing that people call SL "not a game" because "the economy is real". I hate to break it to you, but the economy being "real" (and that is indeed up for debate) is not a new thing nor in any way native to SL. In fact Ultima Online let you sell in game money for real money, and vice versa, long before SL ever did. Is Ultima Online more than just a game and a virtual community where those who operate the service (and yes, SL is a service provided by LL) do not have final say on what goes and what doesn't?

People who claim SL is "real" and any more than just another online service where those perpetuating said service have final authoritarian say over what goes and what doesn't are kidding themselves. It is a game, and you have no rights beyond what is afforded to you by LL, and they can take your rights and your game or toy away if they so wish, all they need to do is stop taking your money for their service.

I'm sure I'm going to make myself unpopular with this post, but eh... I wasn't in this as a popularity contest anyway.

Which coincides with when the threads complaining about forum moderation began. LL has the right to do what they want on their forums certainly but the call for forum intervention came from within. The suggestion to be careful what you wish for went unheeded. Self control was not an option so here we are. Deal with it.

If the need for attention and notoriety compels one to be on top of a pretty forum list try starting one for the biggest whiners. But do it in off topic.

This doesn't really have anything to do with free speech. First, there is no such thing as free speech in a company owned forum, which this is. There is no government supressing your constitutionally recognized right to question the government. Second, let's not paint this as some big cause when it simply isn't.

The original thread was moved to Off-Topic, not hidden away in some gulag so the common man wouldn't rise up against the fascist government. A second thread was started to question the moderators actions, (under the FALSE assumption that the thread had been deleted entirely) and that thread was locked, with the reasoning of it being against the rules we ALL agreed to in order to post here. (Don't actually agree with them? Be more careful what you agree to next time.) Now here's a new thread, as was expected, questioning, again, the moderators actions.

Seems to me that the only thing this proves is that some people feel they should be above and exempt from the rules we all agreed to. (and as Margaret pointed out, screeched to have enforced when someone we didn't like was breaking them)

A thread was moved to off-topic. A thread questioning that was locked. OH THE HUMANITY!!!! THE INJUSTICE!! Bleh... Get over it.

this thread is a trick to out minors on the main grid?!

We all owe a debt of gratitude to those who lead the effort to provoke LL into censoring the forums. Hat's off for a job well done.

Buster

It is difficult to judge whether this was a reasonable action or not without reviewing the original post. Can you please re-post the removed post so that we can all determine whether LL's action was appropriate.

Buster

Prokofy got himself banned by his own doing. it has nothing to do with being pushed out or censorship. Break the rules, you are banned.....plain and simple.

Likewise, Ulrika should know better. Nobody gets special treatment for any reason.

Now THERE'S an incontrovertible undisputed undeniable unquestioned absolute fact.

I'm not complaining, I'm just stating a fact. There are great methods for real communities to have open dialogue using the net. Company owned forums usually isn't one of them.

Ah, but there was no free speech to begin with. Many people miss this nuance of privately held forums.

LL is a company, and therefore subject possibly to litigation if they allow libel, and other forms of litigiable speech.

You want a free-for-all, that leaves LL with their pants down, and could very well spell the end of SL.

It isn't about the economy. It's about the stated intent. An intent which stand in contrast to the overly patronizing standards of the forum.

Just because a company CAN do something does not mean it has to do that thing.

I don't quite see what your status as "a 45 year old woman" has to do with this, Kendra ?

Surely you're not suggesting that this is a category of people less likely to offend in forum posting matters, or more deserving of having their views respected in some way ?

How would this compare, say, with "a 53 year old man" for instance, or "a 29 year old hermaphrodite who is generally reticent to express an opinion" ?

Which would carry more weight, deserve more respect, or be less likely to offend forum-wise ? D'you think ?

On the quantitative Scale o' Respect, I'd place a reticent hermaphrodite slightly higher than an outspoken middle-aged hausfrau. Of course, both of these are trumped by my respect for the schizophrenic eunuch...

Very well said.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

Well let me see if I have this straight:

Ulrika posts a thread in General called, "Make Ulrika famous!" It is about making Ulrika famous.

It gets moved to "Notices and Well Wishes."

Ulrika posts another thread in General called, "Make Ulrika infamous!" It is about making Ulrika infamous.

It gets moved to off-topic.

Then Ulrika posts a thread in General asking where her last thread went. It gets locked.

Then Ulrika posts a thread called, "Are we citizens or children?" protesting the removal and/or locking of the prior threads.

Do I have all that correct?

If so, it seems to me that the original two threads were posted in the wrong forum in the first place. Prostesting their removal to other forums and/or protesting the locking of the third thread seems to me to be . . . somewhat childish. Thereby answering the question posed by this thread, at least as regards the O.P.

coco