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Vicious Hounds or "Techie Darwinism"

Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 13:45
From: Weedy Herbst
I agree En, once again we see derailed threads because of personal issues.


Weedy,

Yes, but who derailed it? Cocoanut did not make this personal at all, those responding to her did. The topic at hand is how the forums relate to Google's culture. Nothing she said was about her - but yet she was told it's not all about her. WTF?
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Cristiano


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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 13:45
From: Weedy Herbst
WTF does this have to do with Google? Take your dirty laundry elsewhere, please.


Ok why are you not taking Forseti to task in the first place for saying it?
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Cristiano


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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
10-06-2005 13:46
From: Cristiano Midnight
No one else had their opinions held up to scrutiny though, why?


Er, well, I certainly did. Maybe you didn't see the front page, though, Cris. :)

I never posit an opinion that I do not want scrutinized. I welcome it. I posted this thread with the intent of scrutiny, to learn the opinions of others, etc. That's sort of the point of discussion.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
10-06-2005 13:50
It's all good.

I'd had bigger hopes for this thread's outcome, but it doesn't matter now. Jeska will need to take some action sooner or later. On the upside, though, I learned what I needed to learn. :)
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
10-06-2005 13:51
From: Cristiano Midnight
Ok why are you not taking Forseti to task in the first place for saying it?


You mean this?

From: Forseti Svarog
good post enab.

i agree, disagreements and discourse should be allowed to get heated.

rules of thumb i try to stick by:

1. don't take everything personally

2. if someone does make it personal and nasty, do your best to just ignore it (or at most, if you just HAFTA, only make 1 response, don't devolve into a back-and-forth)



What is to be taken to task?
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
10-06-2005 13:51

.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 13:52
From: Enabran Templar
Er, well, I certainly did. Maybe you didn't see the front page, though, Cris. :)

I never posit an opinion that I do not want scrutinized. I welcome it. I posted this thread with the intent of scrutiny, to learn the opinions of others, etc. That's sort of the point of discussion.


Sorry, I should have said undue scrutiny. I know the way that discussion works. However, Enabran, look at this objectively, without your opinion of Cocoanut clouding it, and tell me there was anything she said that warranted what followed. I just don't see it, and you know Cocoanut and I have our differences.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 13:54
From: Weedy Herbst
You mean this?




What is to be taken to task?


Nope, this:

From: Forseti Svarog
yes Cory I realized that you were commenting on the culture within Google, not here on the forums (cocoa, not everything is about you)
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Cristiano


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Angel Coral
Otherworldly
Join date: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 224
10-06-2005 14:02
From: Cocoanut Koala
Seems to me like some people in this thread are mighty quick to think they know who the intelligent ones are....
coco



I believe it was this statement that turned the tides. It was pointed at individuals and not the topic. The rest is history. :(

angel
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
10-06-2005 14:02
From: Cristiano Midnight
Sorry, I should have said undue scrutiny. I know the way that discussion works. However, Enabran, look at this objectively, without your opinion of Cocoanut clouding it, and tell me there was anything she said that warranted what followed. I just don't see it, and you know Cocoanut and I have our differences.


I would have to say that without the shrill rejoinder that was Cocoanut's inaugural post to this thread, we would probably have a pretty cool discussion still going.

From: Cocoanut Koala
Seems to me like some people in this thread are mighty quick to think they know who the intelligent ones are.

And since when was intelligence a prerequisite to being treated decently anyway?


I think a better approach would have been to state then whatever opinions Cocoanut may have held, rather than to start making declarations about her thoughts about "some people." Her thoughts about "some people" really didn't have much bearing on the discussion, as far as I can see.

What came later was simply a regrettable but natural progression, I think.

edit:

From: Angel Coral
I believe it was this statement that turned the tides. It was pointed at individuals and not the topic. The rest is history. :(


Jinx!
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
10-06-2005 14:07
From: Cristiano Midnight
Nope, this:


Coco started out in this thread with this:

From: Cocoanut Koala
Seems to me like some people in this thread are mighty quick to think they know who the intelligent ones are.

And since when was intelligence a prerequisite to being treated decently anyway?

coco



I will agree with you Cris this time, but only to a degree. It's a blanket attack, which overshadows previous issues. It injects something into the thread which is off-topic. Coco would have been better served to only comment with the second sentence. Which I agree with. Subsequent posts sure seem to be about herself.

Do you think its fair for me to say "Seems like some people in this thread are mighty quick to think they know who the intelligent ones are" ?
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 14:07
I'm not pro-violence. But if someone takes a swing at me, I will defend myself.

Mar
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
10-06-2005 14:10
From: Martin Magpie
I'm not pro-violence. But if someone takes a swing at me, I will defend myself.

Mar


You are right, Coco came out swinging.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 14:11
From: Weedy Herbst


Do you think its fair for me to say "Seems like some people in this thread are mighty quick to think they know who the intelligent ones are" ?


Yeah, I missed that the first time around. It did seem kind of out of left field, though the thread is about how all these incredibly intelligent Google employees can enjoy heated discourse replete with thrown food, and how it seems to be a parallel to the lofty SL forums. One could then make the leap that those who can't handle the give and take must just not be that intelligent. Perhaps that is what she got from it, I don't know, I can't speak for her, just trying to figure out how this went to hell lol.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 14:16
I don't think its fair to the original poster to side track the original post with individual tit for tats. I found the original post compelling. Can we continue to discuss it?

Mar
Buster Peel
Spat the dummy.
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,242
10-06-2005 14:23
From: Forseti Svarog
buster, one of Enab's key points wasn't that personal attacks are OK, it's that people too easily interpret something as a personal attack. Very different thing.

My point was that overt condescension is the same as a personal attack. People who make personal attacks will claim that they are not making a personal attack at all. "I was unfairly accused of making a personal attack" is a commonly heard refrain. Also heard is "I was punished because somebody accused me of making a personal attack". (Or "inflamatory remark";)

While I agree that people too easily interpret something as a personal attack, I think its a worse problem that people make condescending and derisive remarks, under pretense of innocence. Which is worse, provoking a reaction, or overreacting?
From: Forseti Svarog
I still say you can have intelligent and heated debate, but it helps if people try to keep their oversensitivities and insensitivities in check.

I agree!

Buster
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-06-2005 14:46
>>I'm afraid I just don't see the negativity you want to ascribe to these things. Utter lack of emotion and conviction is boring. I can think of no historical accomplishment that was born in apathy. Passionately held beliefs are often controversial, as is their defense. As is the act of questioning them. People get stirred up. That doesn't mean it's a hive of personal attack -- it simply means people disagree. Vigorously. It's the fear of disagreement and the insecurity it brings that causes many of our problems, as I have posited.


I am sure you have some sense of my meaning.

Vicious Hounds or "Techie Darwinism"...

...the part about the hounds, there, capitalised :)



On many points I agree, there are such things as young people taking offence too readily and so forth. Rare, but it happens.

But who would let disaffected youth annoy an entire group? It's too easy to hire someone who can get their point across without nonsense.

"The quiet guy in the back" can generally trounce a spirited talker technically - almost as a rule from what I've seen.

He's focusing on work, not talk. His manager knows this. His opinion is sought out, his ideas are clear and testable, and other strategies or improvements are welcome.




On another point... let us assume you are correct... that there is history that could *not* be accomplished without the vigorous fiery debates of tech geeks.

What would it be?

I'm guessing it is a commercially available toaster with internet access :)
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
10-06-2005 15:04
Youth? I'm sorry but you must be an adult to post here.
Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
10-06-2005 15:18
This thread utterly fails to take account of the simple truth that I am always right and therefor has outlived its usefulness to me and should be locked.

hehehehe.

In a slightly more serious matter, I think that it does misconstrued the past history to suggest that the a few victims who are disagreed with are the only people who feel there are personal attacks. Its just convenient to blame the victim and give virtual high fives to you allies. Many many times what is said is not "I disgaree with your idea" but "You are a dum ass for ever beleiving such and Idea" and then what happens is that one side, usually the majority degenerates the thread into smug self satisifed ridicule of the contrarian.

The old addage that the winner writes the history is true here. To read the forums you would think that personal attacks were rare. Yest lookc at how often threads get locked down for personal attacks.

The rheotirc is good, but in actuality these forums are as often as no a flamefest.

It is much easier to accept that you are always right, and treat them with the seriousness of a marx brothers movie. I find I like a lot more people that way.
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Lebeda 208,209
DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
10-06-2005 15:41
From: Selador Cellardoor
Because people tend to jump all over Cocoanut when she posts about anything. I am surprised you are confused.


*golf clap*

There is nothing that Coco posted that was any sort of attempt at making it about herself.

Someone else did that and now others are calling her out on it.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
10-06-2005 15:47
From: DogSpot Boxer
*golf clap*

There is nothing that Coco posted that was any sort of attempt at making it about herself.

Someone else did that and now others are calling her out on it.


Hmm, ok for coco to say it, but not Foresti?

From: Cocoanut Koala
Now get back to the damn topic, Forseti, and try to realize that not everything is about you trying to make it about me making it about me.

coco
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
10-06-2005 15:49
From: Weedy Herbst
Hmm, ok for coco to say it, but not Foresti?


That particular quote of Coco's did give me a headache. :)
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
10-06-2005 15:54
From: Cristiano Midnight
That particular quote of Coco's did give me a headache. :)


You got that right, Forseti WAS on topic, yet the accusation to the contrary still flew. Then the same thing was done to the person, as was done to the other. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
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Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
10-06-2005 15:57
From: Weedy Herbst
Hmm, ok for coco to say it, but not Foresti?


It's irrelevant.

Here comment was in response to Forseti's original comment. But that's neither here nor there.

What is relevant is that like sharks who sense blood in the water, some folks here took Coco to task for something she didn't even attempt to do.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-06-2005 16:06
I wasn't referring to anyone in here as a youth, I was referring to conditions at companies like Google.


Mmmm... but you raise a point about clear communication.

Folks, I'm handicapped. The innuendo is a bit too byzantine for me to follow in here, and I'm forced to ignore what I don't understand.


I promise, I'll post flags before even attempting any social commentary of my own, thus:


// irrelevancy //

FIC FIC FICety,
Teki Wiki Wickedly

Primmy tek, tiki wek,
Blingy FIC'y mechie tek.

Tossing TOS so happily,
deconstructing Darwin Appleby.

roxxors w00t,
meaningless acronyms moot.

// all done! //


Other than that, I may be taken at face value :)

- Desmond
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