Bush wants a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages

Misnomer, I love those!!

Therein lies my biggest beef with some organized religions: they use only what they want to promote thier views. Everything else is deemed out of date / old fashioned.

FOR TRUTH

Well, no longer can those biblical references be used against gays, in fact as pointed out thery were old laws put in place by kings (not men) indicitive of the era, and it's ideals. Those were never God's laws. Learn this at the Link above, the old fashioned "Scriptures in yo face" is so old, and absolutely outsmarted but- guess what? - your OWN Bible.

Eat it before you spew it, christopher.

When did Reverand Phelps buy a Second Life account..?

MJ, where did you find those posts?

Jellin
The first one has long circulated the internet. I searched google for it and found the second as a bonus.

Here is a little something I find very fitting for this conversation:




This comes from a great researched report called "Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular" - by Jim Walker

You can read the whole report here:
http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html


I have always been a supporter of the US Constitution. I have always been a supporter of each person's right to practice whatever religion they desire. I will never support Government dictating Laws and Amendments based strictly on the beliefs of certain Religions.

Great link Pendari! Thanks That site does a nice job of condensing a lot of good evidence and explaining it. I wish more people knew their history.

If your personal policy is "Live and Let Live".. thats YOUR policy. Its NOT mine.

My views dont mix with the bleeding hearts? What? I'm supposed to lose sleep over it? I'm NOT alone in my point of view. Just as apparently for the most part, none of you are alone in yours. So be it.

In the end... I dont dislike ANY of you for being what you are, just as I dont harbor any ill will for your right to believe however you choose.

I fought for those rights and would do it again in a heartbeat!

I do find it funny though that when its the bleeding heart liberal club that has THEIR butt in the sling, do they call on OTHER bleeding heart liberals to come to their aid and defense? Nope.

Thay Call on every Johnny Ass Kicker they can muster.
Yeah we believe in your RIGHTS to SAY what you choose, DO what you choose, BE what you choose, and SLEEP with whoever, whatever, and however many you choose.
But do we all have to LIKE these things we fight for?
No.


As an aside, here is an interesting statistic for you to marinate on for a while....
23% of YOUR American MARINES would FIRE on UNARMED AMERICANS if ordered to do so.
WHICH SIDE DO YOU WANT ME ON NOW?

Marrige itself ( Im talking old fashion church marriges not this court marrige bs) is based on and about religion, sanctifying two people into one. all in all its suppose to be holy. I find it very hypocritical on how some of you "bash" on Christopher for simply pointing out his veiw on same sex marriges, as well as some of you disrespecting his religion.
whatever the case is, I quote my Mother when i say this. "Two wrongs dont make a right."

Not on mine thanks!

Christopher,

You obviously don't put much thought into this. It sounds as though you assume that most liberals are against the military. I'm about as left as they come, yet I love our military and have always been for military spending (and not for cuts). Yes they spend alot of money, but the fruits they bear bring us the technology we use every single day.

You also imply that all those 'Johnny Ass Kickers' fall along your camp. You should know as well as I do, that is not the case. The military is made up of men and women of all walks of life, including homosexuals.

And as for your last comment:



It really has no bearing on this thread other than for you to puff up your own self image. Beyond that, I'm actually surprised. Only 23%? That means that the remaining 77% of our Marines are not doing what they should be doing: following orders.

*disclaimer: the figure he quotes has little, if any relevance as we have no background to the situation provided.

Ok Apex
lets make the playing field even another way. Lets take away all the civil rights afforded those married in the church since it is such a religious institution that has nothing to do with "court marriage bs". Then see who cries foul.

Then the courts can apply legal mumbo jumbo to whoever the feel like it... after all it isnt about that, right? Its just about god and ceremony.

Separation of church & state is a lie otherwise Bush would not be standing up against this issue.

your right misnomer, seperation of church and state is a lie, never said it wasnt. Although i think i know why, if im correct didnt America evolve off of the English ways? (when it comes to marrige that is) back then everything was religious, and im guessing that marrige is just one of those things that never evolved around the constitution, ect. since its so important in American society.

See Apex, therein lies the problem. People automatically tie marriage with a religious service. It *can* be, but is not required to be.

You can be married without any involvement of organized religion.

You cannot be married without a certificate from the government.

It is the inability to separate a religious tradition with the certificate that the government issues and thus, the 1000+ federal benefits/protections automatically afforded to anyone who marries.

Because of this, logically, there is no valid reason for banning two people, regardless of gender, the right to marry. It's simply discrminatory.

Mr. Bush will go down in history, along with many of his supporters due, in part, to this issue. It is unfortunate for the Republican party of the coming years to forever be tied (yet again) to a group of people pushing for legal discrimination.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not his personal views I 'bash', but rather the vitriolic and negative way he presented his view. Could that be the explanation? You think? I don't think much of his strange juggling of things I consider hypocritical:

THERE IS ZERO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST GAYS GETTING MARRIED! PERIOD!
You wanna get married? Marry the opposite sex.

Hmmm, those 2 sentaces sort of cancel each other out don't they? "There is no discrimination if they want to do this, but they can't do that" Huh?

Then there's this gem:

What God deems however, apparently doesnt apply to many of you.

Sorry if you think this is bashing his beliefs, but what he calls god, I call the fiction of the frightened. That's my belief. I also don't care for the automatic assumption that anyone can dictate the will of 'The One True God". I also find it personally irritating when people draw their arguments from the bible as if it was personally penned by god and therefore the end-all of truth.

Then maybe it's high time we evolved it.

we *all* pay our fair share of taxes into the system.

I, for one, demand my fair share back.

I won't *bash him for his views*. He has a right to them. I will bash him for using his military service as some sort of pulpit to relate his views. I am a veteran of both active and reserve service and I would never use that fact to present my viewpoint(s). Last I checked there has not been a military draft in place for quite some time. That means Christopher VOLUNTEERED. And now he's acting as if it gives him the right to judge others. Ideally our military is there to protect people, and not just Americans from such judgemental points of view.

And that last thing he said, the supposed fact about marines shooting unarmed civilians, what does that have to do with anything being discussed here?

Obviously it's to generate fear.

Damn straight... er.. you know what I mean

As far as this:



What is that supposed to be? A threat?

And since when was the government run by the bible? Since when did we live in a country where our personal lifestyles were dictated by a book that many don't believe in. And the one thing I REALLY don't get... WHY THE FARK DO YOU CARE IF WE ALL GO TO HELL OR NOT?

Ever read the Age of Reason? Well whip it out, buddy. I pity the foo' who trys to argue it.

Remember. I don't hate you, I just hate your ideas. Don't think it's possible? Of course you don't...

Well, first we'd have to start teaching evolution in schools.

If you are for gay marriages I have a question.
Are you against bestiality or incest?
You better not say Yes.

If gay marriages are allowed to happen then bestiality and incest should be allowed.

They do

I thought about this long and hard last night as I was drifting off to sleep.

I can despise your ideas, your ideology, even your id, without despising YOU as a person.
I do want to address the comments made by some of my detractors though...

Evolution in schools?
Wrong. Does this mean I dont like Darwin? not by a LONG shot Does this mean you HAVE to agree with me? Again, NOT by a long shot.

Seperation of Church and State....
A lot of you jump all over this, yet do you even know why it was put in place? To keep the STATE from FORCING which CHURCH you choose. Not to keep the Government OFF of the right (according to me) path. I think that all of this flat out BS over church and state is nothing more than a twisting of the constitution and bill of rights. Again, MY opinion. Doesnt have to be yours.
But when some penny ante bastard comes along and SUES over whether or not his kid HAS to say the pledge of allegiance in school because it has "One Nation Under God" in it... it flat out PISSES ME THE F* OFF! Some example to set for a generation that already refuses authority and brings guns to school. Way to go A'HOLE!
DO you have to agree with me? Nope.

Flaunting Military Service....
YOU BET YOUR ASS I WILL!
I have taken 3 count em THREE bullets on seperate occasions for this country... hell for that matter I took them for YOU.
ALL of those times I lay on my deathbed with tears in my eyes wondering why *I* lived and the other guy didn't? ALL of those times had it not been for our EXPERT level of field care I would have died.
I turned down the 3rd Purple Heart By the way... you know why? It rotated you OUT of Service.
*blink blink*
So yeah, I stood fast against an enemy that as far as I am concerned, THEIR way of life was a direct threat to OUR way of life. So I not only took these shots for my country, I took them for you.
All of you! Black, White, Brown, Green, Purple!
Straight, Gay, Bi, Try!
Believer, Non Believer, Monks, Nuns, Jews for Jesus!
Agnostics, Evolutionsists, Creationists, Cartoonists!
ALL OF YOU!

I am old. Much older than most if not all of you. I come from a different generation. People that fought for this country were respected, REVERED even. Not called "Baby Killers".

Why I care about you burning in hell...
To be honest... I do because that is what I was taught to do.
You call it being fed drivel and buying into it, I call it a good and decent upbringing.
You call it being stuck in the middle ages, I call it having the mindset of my father, and his father before him. You know? The men that BUILT this country? Or do they not count anymore?
You can call my views Right Wing, Christian, Republican, White Male, Southern, Stupid, Assinine, whatever insulting or degrading moniker you choose.
The fact of the matter is this... it is me, and people like me that have made this country the best in the world.

Do you honestly think it was a bunch of Gay and Lesbian Marriage Seekers, sympathizers, empathizers, non God fearing liberals that set sail to come to this country and make a new world? Do you think it was this same group that set out to make this country independant?
I know that a LOT of what is in the history books may be flawed in its presentation, but from what I remember it was Good, Decent, God Fearing, Straight people that came here and kicked off the birth process for what this country is today!
A country where you are free to be liberal, gay, anti-war, or any of the other myriad of topics hit on in the course of this thread.
Im happy to be an American. Im happy YOU are an American if you are. But more than anything, Im happy with your rights to choose to be whatever you desire to be EVEN if I think that what you may choose is wrong. It doesnt mean I despise YOU, just your choice.

Now I am tired of being gang banged on this thread.
Think what you want, say what you want, feel what you want, and even BE what you want. I am going to BE what I already am and there is very little you can say, do, or change that will make me one iota different than I am right now.
I dont hate people
I seriously despise some peoples decisions though.