Bush wants a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages

Religious crap thought up and added by humans over the years is mostly crap, and I think that's what you're talking about. But there's nothing wrong with the basic, fundamental ideas behind organized religion. AFAIK, what we know of the actual teachings of the man known as "Jesus Christ" are extremely wise and benevolent. (And I'm not even really that religious. )

Christianity seems to be a primary focus when people talk about religious bigotry, heh.

Some people think that religion is outdated, but I wonder how many of those people suddenly have a leap of faith when a family member dies or when they're on the way out....hmm.

I have great admiration for JC as a ghandi-esque rebel and I do believe he existed, but I automatically discount all the supernatural aspects. Most of the major aspects of Christianity were parts of Mithra which predates it by a few hundred years. But I disagree that the fundamentals of religious thought are good. Every culture has the golden rule. It's common sense. Most moral axioms are. It's pretty safe to assume that they would exist with our without religion. But even if someone of a different religion or a non-believer followed every moral code to the letter, they would still be condemned. If Jesus had been an atheist he would be too. How can that be justified? How does it serve humanity, progress, or peace?

I usually use Christianity as an example since it's the one I'm most familiar with (and grew up with) but these things are essentially true of all religions.



Well who wouldn't want eternal life? It's a darn good carrot to hang on the end of the stick If not for that, what would be the point for anyone to believe? And that just proves my point... the root of it all is self-interest, not altruism.

Chip,

<<Well who wouldn't want eternal life?>>

Anybody who's actually thought about what it would mean.

If eternal life in the here-after means I'd have my mother around forever, I'd rather just die.

lol, well now that you mention it, I wouldn't want it either. But I'd like to be able to check in every hundred years or so to see how things are going

But that's just it...if you know you're dying or someone you loved is gone, no matter what you feel or think, it doesn't change the state of the situation. Faith and religion are not synonymous, though people often confuse the two as being one and the same. It has always been my perspective that one's faith or religion was to help enhance one's life...to live a more positive way of living...not to segregate or impede on the life and civil rights of another fellow law abiding citizen.
I've been a pole bearer of a dozen times, coming from a large family. First couple of times, one questions the religious role of it all and runs through lines of blessings like, "...May God embrace you in your eternal rest..."...but after a while, I began to gain perspective that this is all what life is about...beginnings and endings. For me, it's not when you live or die, but HOW you live and die. I know I will always fight to support equal rights/civil rights in the U.S., knowing that in the perspective of our country's history, it's a fairly new concept and a project in the making in this country...not to mention still non-existent in other countries around world.




That was a brilliant post. Though I'm an agonostic, I've always found the teachings of most organized religions short sighted and bigoted, interlaced with some truly benevolent insights. Though there are followers who truly are well meaning, the total embracing of a particular faith forces a follower to become a bigot in a very negative sense towards one group of another. That said group is totally dehumanized and just referred to as evil and sinful, irregardless of the positive contribution to the community that group of people may have done. What's even worse is when you hear someone say, "...oh God will now be more forgiving of their sins for their good deeds..." WTF?! LOL...

This may be totally off topic but I don't like this over-generalization of religious people.

You know, I'm not really religious, but this stuff about "you go to hell if you're not a Christian[insert other?]" seems like utter crap to me. I was forced to go to those after school religious classes and I never recall anyone saying that people who didn't believe this stuff automatically go to hell. That's an extreme view, and that's not what I was taught. That's what extemist fundamentalists say...you know, the type that try to push their religion in your face all the time? Religious anti-gay bigots are also extremists. I'm pretty sure that every religous person I know will NOT say that gay people and "non-believers" are automatically going to hell. I think it's utter bull to say that every religious person (not just Christians) think that everyone who believes otherwise is condemned.

I don't think the majority of religious people really think in the way that athiests like to portray them. It's the vocal minority who thinks it's SO important to SAVE (heh) the non believers that get all the attention, and give everyone else a bad name.

And now I'm disappointed because I was planning on dropping out of this thread.

That's a fair criticism Garoad, but it's important you understand that I'm talking about the fundamental underpinnings of religion and how they relate to people feeling justified in denying equal rights. I'm not making generalizations about religious people as individuals. I mostly seperate what people believe from who they are. All that matters to me is how they treat me and the other people we share the planet with. Religion and philosphy in general are very interesting to me, but an individual's religion is a thousand times less interesting to me than it is to them, unless they make it my business... which they have a habit of doing... like codifying it into the constitution.

It's hard to talk about this stuff without people taking it personally and getting defensive, but we should be able to step outside ourselves and consider contrary ideas as just that... ideas.

Yes I don't like to see religion used to justify a denial of rights or to justify any other type of wrong-doing either. (right Osama?)

I was talking about this issue with a close friend of mine (I fully support same sex marriage), and he pointed out a web site he had heard about that has gotten a lot of press for their efforts to ban gay marriage in individual states, and lobbying for the amendment.

Having viewed the site today and being beyond sickened by it, I am convinced more than ever how destructive religion can be. While this represents the extreme, it is these extreme religious groups that are the most vocal. Just as terrorism represents the extreme of Islam, this represents the extreme of Chrisitanity and perverts it in such a way that I must admit I am almost speechless that such utter ignorance and hatred extists.

The site is not for the uninitiated - it made me so angry that I want to do something to try to stop it, but I also know how horribly pervasive this kind of hatred is, all rooted in the bible. I am offended as a human being, as a heterosexual male, and as a Catholic. Where did things go so terribly wrong?


http://www.godhatesfags.com

Cristiano,

That site belongs to Fred Phelps, a notorious Kansas preacher-ex-civil-rights-lawyer who has a kind of "compound" of family in Topeka and a church that spreads this kind of hate like a disease. This man, Phelps, actually picketed the funeral of that kid that was beaten to death in Laramie, Wyoming for being gay, Andrew Kunanan (sp?), he's picketed AIDS funerals, he carries his grandchildren on one hip and huge "godhatesfags" sign on the other. He's the epitomeme of hate and evil, just as bad (imho) as the neo-nazis and the KKK. He's an extreme, vile example of how someone can twist religion around to support hate. I lived in Kansas for several years and I've personally known people who tried to run him down with their cars he made them so angry (that, of course, is not the right reaction).

Fred Phelps will eventually, I believe, be taken down for a hate crime of one sort or another -- or someone who lives in his compound will. Until then, imho, Phelps needs to be ignored. The only reason he continues to do this "work" is because he gets press. If the press would just ignore him, he might very well go away.

Zana

Here is a site that is quite the opposite, and whose purpose is to counteract the site you found (a.k.a. Phelps Watch)...

http://www.godlovesfags.com

lol...

Morons like that guy...well, what can we say... just the Christian version of Osama.

I really can't comprehend why he'd be such an idiot, it just boggles the mind. What's to gain?

I hate to nitpick on a very imformative post, but Andrew Cunanan was the guy who murdered Gianni Versace back in 97.

Teeny is correct. You are thinking of Matthew Shepard. That group also came to the Bay Area to protest at the funeral of a young cross dressing male (will edit if I remember the name) who was beaten to death. On their website they also feature other prominent gays who died tragic deaths like Diane Whipple who was mauled to death by dogs.

Its terribly sad these people find such pleasure in the grief of others.

I agree Cris - totally.

I think the problem is 'fundamentalism' -- just as groups like the Taliban are extreme fundementalist Islam, Mr Phelps represents the same concepts applied to Christianity.

I've recommended this site a few times as an example to people who equate Islam to terrorist groups.. I happens everywhere..

The twisting of a belief system to suit your adgenda seems far easier for some than (the original idea) changing your lifestyle to conform to a belief system.

I also couldn't help but note (as I did earlier in this same thread) that Mr Phelps is again one of the 'half quoters' of Leviticus.... If he believes this as wholely as he says he does -- he should be killing people, as the latter half of the quote suggest you do.. I guess he only 'half believes' what he says.

I'm sure that many good Christians are as ashamed of this man as many Islamics are of the likes of Osama.

And in turn makes me feel marginally sick that he is of the same species as me...


Siggy.

Sorry! I knew I mixed up the names. My bad :0.

Zana

I have read all how many other posts in this thread and mine will not make one bit of difference either way in the topic of discussion but I do want to say two things that are on my mind as view points that I have seen that have not been covered to date.


#1 How many Races on the Planet Earth?

1 think about it the HUMAN Race.

#2 Anyone really think about why the gov't wants to stop same sex marriages? I mean really aside from the social and religious ramifications of independent Ideology.

Its about Money. Where do I base this information look at your taxation and you tell me why. In this age of "Divorce" as some have noted The gov't is trying to Enforce the Standardization of Marriage within the hetero Community.

Why because when a "Man" and "Woman" get married they are entitled to certain Rights on their Income Tax Returns that allow them more Cash in return from the governtment.

By allowing "Same Sex" marriages this would totaly delute the Goverenmental influx of Monies from the "Gay" Community through their taxes. Why? Because, now they would be afforded the same rights as a Conventional Man/Woman Marriage. Thus entitled to the same Returns that a Conventional Marriage has rights to. In essence the government Cannot legitimately AFFORD to allow it to happen.

Again I say its not about Social Ideology, Its not about your god sux my god rocks, Its not about I love you/I hate you. Its pure and simply about Greed and Money and the control therin.

A lot of valid statements were brought up here about the government and its origins. Lot of people complain about Religion, Racism,and many other topics of distrust and hate. But let me assure you a lot of this Social and Religious banter has no real bearing on the simplest of underlying reasonings and that is the eb and flow of the control of the economy as a whole.

Is this Oppression of our fellow Man and Woman as human beings? Yes it is. Will this debate every be solved probably not but mean while reverting back to my first question of how many races are on the planet. Think about it if the whole world thought in that view point we would all get along a whole lot better. We are here as a Race we are all different we all have different view points we all have very strong convictions on the things we see hear smell taste and do. But if we want to dig to the true root and nature of the whole problem we need to set aside the Ideology of Socialism and Religion and get back to basics where the REAL problem lies.

As far as the Social and Religious stand points brought up in this thread I will stay neutral because of situations in my past from both sides of the fence that have affected my RL therefore I will not delute them by trying to subjugate a community to my opinions on both sides of this topic. I just wanted to point out what I "Thought" I seen as a root of the whole problem and get everyones opinion on it.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

dang y'all been quiet all day now!...Hmmmm

Yeah you missed the thread, everyone's all... threaded out in this, uh thread now.