Teen grid observations...

WAIT theres a teen grid?

Sucka got served!

I do not wish to argue my views with you and pick apart the law therefor I stand by my previous statements. I have found no value in allowing pornographic materials on the kiddie grid.

ll is catering to kids therefor it is their duty to make sure kids are safeguarded from the onset. To discount this subject is imbecilic at best. I have grave concerns about the purpose of anyone oppugnant, to the obvious propitious opinions of knowledgeable ppl in this tread.
ll continues to raise serious concerns, as they continue to turn a blind eye to the kiddie grid. Responsible parents do not put their children in a lions den and hope that those kids will not be harmed. I see ll opinion as "lets wait to dial 911 till this child is mauled by the tiger."
Unacceptable.

Deja vu all over again..

So when I come up with a compelling reason against your desire for a tight-knit, 100% safe, anti-septic babysitter zone, you simply mute out any reasonable thought and sing Yankee Doodle?

They are protecting the kids, within a reasonable amount. They are not allowing porn, they are not throwing kids to the evil pedophiles (lurking JUST NEXT DOOR!!!!), they are not sucking the life and the money out of your precious little rugrats.

Honestly, you are over reacting. Trust me on this. You are.

Every time Linden Lab comes up with something slightly, mildly different from what they've been doing, everyone and their mother freaks out. Calm the hell down. If you don't think the Kid Grid is safe for your precocious little monster, then don't let him download it. Stop trying to impose draconian safety laws on everyone's children.

LF

Because if they are going for a "teen" rating with the ESRB, you can't forewarn about the possibility of explicit content, since it's not supposed to have that kind of content under that rating to begin with.

And yes, besides being genuinely concerned for kids, I am really worried that this is going to wind up with Linden Labs being overcome with lawsuits and forced to sell (if they aren't already planning to do this) to EA games or some other evil empire, and that invariably results in badness. EA and the like aren't going to allow this kind of open gate for litigation, and I think they'd be far less thoughtful about how they go about closing it.

I don't want the main grid to end up suffering because of this venture. I wil, as I did with UO when it stopped being cool, cancel my account and never look back.

That would be a shame. SL is a great concept, and one that is actually working. But it's still in the early stages. Too early, I think, for line expansion just yet.

I don't know why they aren't willing to be more patient in order to do this right. If I could understand that... if Robin or someone would just come out and say, "Oh, here's the answers to all your questions: A, B, C, D..." without all that vagueness, or else, "Oh, your questions are asinine because we're actually: Blah, blahblah, blah...." then I'd feel much better about this.

Yours,

M.

Look, let's both take a deep breath and let me explain something to you that might shed some light on where I'm coming from.

Maybe it would make it easier if I told you that I worked in the gaming industry as a marketing director concerning multiplayer products targeted at both adults and children online since way back when playing over the "regular Internet" was just being worked out due to packet loss issues. I have experience with this matter directly, and I have seen the consequences of poor planning in a new product roll-out, including a very good company going out of business and being absorbed by Microsoft because of it.

I cringed when I saw what Robin said, and thought to myself that they must be understaffed. I'd like to think it is that rather than some political reason that they would allow someone who admittedly can't handle their chosen method of PR to do it. Benefit of the doubt, and all that.

LL isn't my company, no. But I am a customer with perhaps a teensy bit more understanding about what it is they are trying to do than the average customer (although SL is populated with experienced programmers, graphic designers and people with 3D experience due to its nature) and I bring up these issues because I've seen them before, and I have not seen actual concrete answers to some of the good questions that are being raised.

I'm assuming that they aren't answering them for some reason having to do with proprietary knowledge or somesuch. Perhaps their legal department won't let them be answered straight in a forum like this. But, I'm certainly not the only one to bring up legitimate concerns as well as plausible solutions to the potential problems - including just being patient and not jumping the gun on this Teen SL concept - and I hope that LL is taking them seriously, at least.

I hope this, because my questions are asked out of sincere concern for a product I have come to love, and I do not want to see it changed. This is called brand expansion, and it usually detracts from the profits, customer service and loyalty of the original successful brand, though sometimes it can result in great success (i.e., Sprite was successful... anyone remember Crystal Pepsi?) Perhaps SL is not as successful as I'm thinking it is, financially. Maybe I'm reading this whole thing wrong and they have a handle on all these issues, and are simply not willing to say so for a strategic reason that is not clear to me.

I am not a frothing-at-the-mouth bible thumping prude who covers my kid's eyes whenever someone shows their belly-button, okay? I love my kid, and I'd appreciate it if you'd show enough respect to quit slamming my parenting skills here, because you really don't have any idea what I do or don't do with my child, and it isn't relevant to the concerns that I brought up... not when you think about the reality... If an old bat can successfully sue a monolith like McDonalds for being burned by hot coffee, what makes you think that a smaller company like LL won't be sued for providing a product rated "T" that allows little Jimmy to make a teen version of the Platinum Genitals?

SL is not the "Internet". The internet is not a broadcast medium, in that you have to go looking for what you want. This is what made "push" technology and spam such a big issue, because you were getting something you weren't asking for. In SL, someone can put something on your screen that you may not want, without asking.

Even if I was watching over my kid's shoulder, and s/he was behaving perfectly respectably, should suddenly some hardcore porn popped up on it thanks to a texture transfer, then what am I, J. Ignorant Parent, supposed to think about LL's business practices?

A good friend of mine who also has a bit more clue than average made the following analogy that is not only humorous (which obviously you appreciate), but illustrative:

Deskmerc : else I could open a park full of buzzsaws and throwing knifes, call it "Kids World" and declare it kid safe, just don't touch anything with edges

Deskmerc : Or I could put up a disclaimer, that says "Kids may hurt themselves with knives", but legally, in the real world, that will NEVER wash

Deskmerc : even though I have a disclaimer and put people around my park to make sure no kids pick up a buzzsaw

Deskmerc : sure, that's an extreme point, but such an extreme does illustrate the fact that if you designate somehting kid safe, then you have aresponsibility to make it so, otherwise you are liable for anything that happens

Deskmerc : no matter how accidental

Deskmerc : So the Lindens have to be able to say they can secure the content reasonably, and the current setup does not allow that

Deskmerc : I can take a cylinder and a hemisphere, point to it and say "Penis!"

Deskmerc : How will you prevent that from happening? That's the standard that MUST be met.

Deskmerc : Because really, if the standard can't be met, the Lindens are exposed and liable

If you're going to present a product as meeting a certain standard of age-appropriateness, then the standard must be met. Else, said company will wind up suffering the penalty of law, and I don't want to see that happen to LL.

Grok?

Yours,

M.

Hey, Deskmerc said it, so it must be true! Never mind blaringly obvious contradictions!

Desmark may see a penis, but Smootchie the Rhino sees a magical rocket ship that will take us to Storyland!


Woot.. why won't they let me be 'Smootchie Linden'? ooooh the songs of great learning I could impart to the children of tomorrow!!!

Siggy.

Wont it be more fun to sit back and say 'I told you so' as they crash and burn and we all move on to a next generation MMORPG?



Did you mention to them or think about the fact that y'all are setting up a economic system designed to exploit a 'kiddie' customer base via unequal economic status on a 'seperate but equal' grid that attempts to actually block and evade effective parental controls through institutionalized rules against adult participation in a world that is open to extremely mature (and even RL illegal) acts and objects? Pornography, illegal content, and (more importantly to me) inappropriate behaviors will find its way into your world and you will be held responsible when you are unable to effectively respond and control the situation. Even notwithstanding actual legal implications; I personally would feel uncomfortable participating in a system that endorses and encourages such things and I'm sure there are many others that feel the same. What will you do when someone makes a list of all the users after 6 months or so known to have at least 1 or 2 'strikes' on them still on the grid and can easily show a pattern of negligence after X many cases of abuse against minors? Is that a press release your just dying to see?

What am i missing here? What advantages for LL does this concept even have?

That is something that I truly do not want to do.

Hey, maybe some of the folks here are right and this is all a lot of overreacting. But at least these questions are being asked now, by loyal customers, rather than later after the release, by angry activists.

Anyone remember how many countries banned GTA:3 because of the street-walkers you could ... ah... employ to increase your health? That was a big, big deal and it was rated M, and there wasn't anything explicit about it. People had a fit.

I just think that if a certain group of hypersensitive people had any clue what goes on in SL right now, on and off the PG sims, they'd smack LL with a lawsuit just for thinking this. And frankly, I don't blame them. I wouldn't let my kid within 10 feet of the computer when I'm playing this, much less play it himself by himself with no way for me to even check to be sure no one is doing anything awful to or around him. And he does have a ton of ideas, so it's kind of a shame that he can't.

It's a good thing they don't know now, but that knowledge will increase once this game is released to teens. Many parents are much more fastidious than you're assuming, particular when it comes to 13 year olds, and I really think it will just be a matter of time before an incident occurs and hell follows with it.

Btw Lordfly, chat logs in Yahoo are encrypted and are only extractable in a legally-admissable form by Yahoo... and it was done specifically for this purpose... not to snoop, but to prove harrassment. And on every major personals website, they require approval for the pictures you upload before they'll post them. The technology for this exists, and clearly some companies are able to do it while rendering a profit. So, it's possible.

I understand the appeal for making the game. It's just that it's not ready yet for this kind of release, in my opinion.

Just my opinion, of course.

Yours,

M.

here's a teen grid observation.... It is full of teens.

You're half right.. It will be half-filled with Teens, and half-filled with Adults trying to sell them something.

Calm down? I believe your off base in your assumption. I did not post messages with CAPS or !!!! Calm down, indeed.

I never mentioned ll sucking money out of the little ones. My points are clear and to the point, there is no need to add frivolous conjuncture.

I am somewhat bewildered by the opinion of anyone who would not want to protect all children. I hear your opinions, I just disagree with you.

Do you have children? Sometimes as a parent we have to make tough choices. Those choices are not always "fun" but they are reasonable choices. Children do not have cognitive reasoning adults do.

Yelling and stomping your feet will not get me to change my opinion of what is the best course of action as far as uploading potentially dangerous materials via the kiddie grid.

If we were talking about 6 year olds' cognitive abilities, then I would agree with you. Most teenagers, if they have grown up with a healthy diet, have just as much cognitive ability as adults do. Immaturity is still there, certainly, but cognitive function is perfectly fine there (I may be wrong, I'm not a psychologist)

Just a nitpick.

LF

I highly suggest the following document to all those interested in the subject of teens and cognitive thinking;

Findings from Cognitive Interviews