Bush: We're safe, but it's an illusion?

You got anybody backing your "side" as credible as Richard Clarke?

LOL. Spin anything any way, can't you? The fact that Rose is less afraid of al Qaeda than she is of Bush's government and US law enforcement is not a positive endictment of Bush's abilities. It really, really isn't.



Ah! Of course! Don't defend! Deflect! Yus. Most will undoubtedly concede this point, so you win! George Bush has not yet been felated in the White House by a woman other than his wife as far as we know.

You can distil anything into an obtuse deflection/comparison argument for pretty much anything to obscure the fact you have no argument, really. Observe: well Osama isn't that bad, really, is he? Certainly not as bad as that cunt Saddam. Osama just killed a couple tower blocks of people. Saddam murdered tens of thousands.

Keep on not backing down. It's fun watching

Nice way to skirt all the issues there Kiamat Let's see, if you can't defend your case with specifics, make blanket statements about "lefties" - check. Bring up Clinton's blow job - check. play the "poor belittled conservatives" card - check. Bring up Elian Gonazales?! - alrighty... check. Okay then... now how are we safer again? I missed that part.

1) I certainly do NOT support Palestinian "suicide bombers"
2) Anti-Zionism does NOT equal Anti-Semitism
3) I'm Jewish --and very proud of the fact.
4) I do not compare Bush to Hitler directly. Hitler was intelligent. Bush is, however, a FASCIST
5) You're obviously too ill-informed to recognize socialism as the polar opposite of Fascism. BTW the socialist bent of Jews in 1930's Germany was one of the many reasons they were targetted. Much like Bush targets Liberals.

President Bush could be overheard saying to someone, "Man, I took a really big shit today," and it would be determined that he was talking about his secret program of removing young Iraqi infants' kindeys and selling them on the black market to North Korean double-spies who turn them into meth to be sold to our school children, all funded by the No Child Left Behind Act.

No. We would take that to mean he appointed Alberto Gonzales to be his new AG.

If I hear Bush talking about taking a really big shit I'd simply assume he was talking about his first term

Let's recap, shall we?

Invaded Afghanistan to capture bin laden - bin laden not caught, warlords control 90% of the country, poppy production at an all time high, thousands dead

Invaded Iraq to uncovers Hussein's secret stash of WMD - no WMD found, insurgents control 90% of the country, haven for terrorists when it wasn't previously, alienated most of our allies, tens of thousands dead

Sought to make the homeland safer - appointed fundamentalist attorney general whose most notable accomplishment was covering up the sinful breasts of lady justice, follows up by appointing attorney general who condones torture and thinks the Geneva Conventions are "quaint," eroded civil liberties in ways not seen since McCarthy, not a single terrorist plot has been uncovered, not a single conviction of a terrorist (unless you count the shoe bomber who only got caught because he didn't have a lighter), destroys free press by paying "journalists" to propogandize, encourages citizens to spy on each other

Inherited record surplus - four years later presides over the largest federal deficit in history

Wants to bring freedom and democracy to the world - incites Iran and North Korea to accelerate their nuke programs, destabilizes middle east.

That's just the short list.

Bush IS a terrorist!

Correction: Bush is THE terrorist!

Ben says it far better than I ever could:

They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

Chip-which case was it that I failed to defend with specifics? If you're talking about the "are we safer?' debate I did and have before. If you're talking about the "Patriot Act Bad/Good" debate I neither defended nor deflected but agreed with Rose that there are some major issues with the Act which need to be addressed. (so much for blinders)

On the other hand I did point out that many parts of the Patriot Act have been in effect long before they were colocated in the Act and Liberals failed to cry about it. Moreover, I pointed out that Liberals are choosey about which Constitutional rights they are willing to abandon.

But I should have mentioned, however, that despite all the Liberal flag waving about the Patriot Act, there has yet to be a credible report of abuse under that Act.

I have failed to find a place, however, where you address the issues which I have raised so allow me to refresh:

1. Where was the outcry about these laws before?
2. Why are you concerned about the erosion of some rights but not others?
3. Why do you reserve sole blame for 9/11 on Bush when it was clearly planned on Clinton's watch and while Clinton had no less than 3 chances to kill or capture bin Laden?
4. What did Clinton do that was so great?

Kris, I have to admit that part about al Qeada and feeling safer and all *was* a bit of a stretch there. (ok a big one), but I'm glad you got a laugh from it.
Again, I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm supposed to be defending here. However, I agree that Osama presented a much greater threat to the American people than Saddam *in retrospect*. We thought he was going for nukes. We thought he had WMDs. We were wrong. But we weren't the only ones who thought it and he was sure acting like it. I'd say he was a victim of his own PR. On the other hand the Iraqis are better now that he is gone and the world is better with another democracy in the Middle East.
The hunt for Osama goes on, but the truth is, with us killing and capturing many of his high ranking officials he is more and more like a puppet master with no puppet.

As for the flip-flops, Hiro:
(1) Flip-Flop #1: Bush has flip-flopped about whether capturing Osama Bin Laden is an important priority for his administration.
-True, or maybe he has decreased in priority as his ability to cause us harm has waned.

(2) Bush flip-flopped on whether former Baathists could participate in the new Iraq government.
FLIP: May 16, 2003: U.S. civil administrator L. Paul Bremer announces a sweeping operation to ensure that Baath Party members are removed from critical positions in the public sector. This ban could affect as many as 30,000 senior Baath Party members.

FLOP: Thursday, April 22, 2004: "The White House confirmed Thursday that the administration is moving to change a postwar policy that blocked members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party from Iraqi government and military positions. . . . The sweeping ban was put in place by civilian administrator Paul Bremer, but he now wants to change the policy as part of an effort to convince Sunnis, who dominate the party, that they are welcome members of the postwar political transition in Iraq.""

-This is what is known as "learning from one's mistakes". Aren't you the ones who are always insisting that Bush goes along his set path no matter how wrong it is? Moreover, it sounds like a good idea. But, of course, the Left would never acknowlege that.

(4) Bush has waffled on whether to adopt the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.

-I note there was no supporting evidence for this one-could it be because there was none to be had?

(7) Bush has attempted to have it both ways on assault weapons.
FLIP: Bush promised in 2000 to renew the assault weapons ban.

FLOP: Then he said and did nothing as Congress let it lapse.

-Bush was educated as to the inefficiency of the ban in the interim.
http://www.gunowners.org/fs9403.htm

( In 2000, Bush argued against new military entanglements and nation building. He's done both in Iraq.
FLIP: BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

FLOP: BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

-What a difference 9/11 makes. Condeleeza Rice has addressed this about face.

(9) Bush opposed the creation of a Homeland Security Department, then embraced it.
FLIP: BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

FLOP: BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

-Note the use of the term "Cabinet office" and "department". What Bush opposed was just some guy with a title. What he supported was a full blown and effective agency.

(10) Bush first refused to speak to the members of the 911 Commission, then agreed only if Vice President Dick Cheney came with him and provided that their testimony was secret and not under oath.

-Again no supportive evidence

(12) Bush and Cheney have been hypocritical flip-floppers on the question of whether we should prosecute the war on terrorism and assert our national power in a way that is "sensitive."

-Yeah, this was just embarrassing.

(13) Bush has flip-flopped on whether his legacy will be as a war president or a peace president.
"I'm a war president," Bush told NBC's "Meet the Press" on Feb. 8. But in a July 20 speech in Iowa, he said: "Nobody wants to be the war president. I want to be the peace president."

-He is a war president who "wants to be the peace president". Pay attention.

(14) Bush keeps revising his Iraq war rationale.

-Bush's rationale for going to war was always about more than WMDs, that's just all the press focused on.

(15) Bush has changed his positions on new Clean Air Act restrictions.

-No proof

(17) Bush has flip-flopped on tobacco buyouts.

-True

(1 Bush has changed his positions on the level of assistance to help combat AIDS in Africa.

-No proof. However, what Bush has done has been to control how US tax dollars are spent in the AIDS crisis. Moreover, the US remains the largest monetary contributor to the UN's AIDS project.

(19) Bush has changed his positions on campaign finance reform.

-True. He should have stuck to opposing it as it infringes on our First Ammendment rights. Where are the Lefties on this one?

(20) Bush has changed his positions on whether to negotiate with North Korean officials. While he has been dithering, North Korea has been moving forward with their nuclear program.
FLIP: BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

FLOP: BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA NCENTIVES TO DISARM "Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

-What you failed to mention here is that Nk *did* address those issues by agreeing to the 5 country talks and therefore paved the way to incentives from the US

(21) Most recently, Bush did an about-face on whether the proposed new director of national intelligence should have full budget-making powers as the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission recommended.

-No proof

(22) Bush has taken multiple positions on how this nation should deal with Iran.
He has alternated between calling them a part of the axis of evil one day and acting calling for engagement the next. While he has been dithering and wavering, Iran has been growing less democratic (1000s of reform candidates were disqualified in the last election by Iran's clerics) and has been moving forward with its nuclear program and continuing to export terrorism.

In his 2002 State of the Union speech, Bush boldly condemned Iran along with Iraq as a fellow member of the so-called "Axis of Evil." More recently, Bush has eagerly courting Iran as a key facilitator in negotiations with the Shiite rebels in Iraq. Washington has eagerly sought Iran's good offices to get hostages released in Iraq and to reach a compromise consensus in dealing with the militias in the Shiite holy city of Najaf.

-This is not "dithering", this is making use of them. Should he have overlooked their usefulness in that situation because they are part of the Axis of Evil? He hasn't changed on that.

(23) Bush has taken multiple positions on whether budget deficits matter.
In 2000, he claimed to be for balanced budgets. Four years later, now that he has turned record budget surpluses into budget deficits, he claims that deficits are not a problem, and that it is the size of the budget deficit relative to the GDP that matters...

-Oh, what a difference 9/11 makes.

(24) Bush has flip-flopped at least three times on whether patients should have the Right to Sue their HMOs.
FLIP: GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

FLOP: CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

FLIP: PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [ Washington Post, 4/5/04]


-I'll have to look into this further considering the less than balanced sources, but I admit that this appears to be a valid flip-flop

(25) Bush has flip-flopped on abortion.

-So did Roe of Roe vs Wade.

(26) Bush has flip-flopped on OPEC.
FLIP: BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

FLOP: BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

-True. He is actively trying to reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Moreover, higher prices result in less usage-shouldn't you Liberals be *thanking* him?

(27) Bush has flip flipped on Iraq Funding.
FLIP: BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

FLOP: BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

-Note the use of the term "anticipate". Is the Bush administration supposed to be clairvoyant now?

(2 Bush first said that we didn't need more troops in Iraq, then he reversed himself.

-No proof

(30) Bush flip-flopped on Science.
FLIP: BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

FLOP: BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [ Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

-First let me point out that Yasser Arafat is a Nobel winner, that should tell you something about the value of the Nobel prize. Second, there is no background info on what this is all about or any counter argument.

(31) Bush flip-flopped on Ahmed Chalabi.
FLIP: BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

FLOP: BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE " U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

Bush then denied that he had ever really known "Chalabi:
THE PRESIDENT: My meetings with him were very brief. I mean, I think I met with him at the State of the Union and just kind of working through the rope line, and he might have come with a group of leaders. But I haven't had any extensive conversations with him.

-Ok???? I'm having a hard time find the point here. So when we believed him to be our ally we invited him to the State of the Union address. Then, when we found out that he was not our ally, we raid his home for evidence. And what proof is there that Bush did know him well? The president meets with heads of state all the time, doesn't mean they are boon companions.

(32) Bush has flip-flopped on whether Weapons of Mass Destruction have been discovered in Iraq.

-Ouch, that's a gotcha!

(33) Bush has flip-flopped on the Environment.

-Yet when the Sierra Club and other environmental groups were invited to join in the energy policy discussion, they declined. Brilliant.

(34) Bush has flip-flopped on a WMD Commission.
FLIP: BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

FLOP: BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

-Let me reiterate "...that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency" So there were already commissions going on this issue. Moreover it never says that he would oppose a commission that did not "...go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency."

(35) Bush flip-flopped on whether to grant a Time Extension for the 9/11 Commission.

-True

(36) Bush flip-flopped on whether to impose a one Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony.

-True

(cont)

(cont)

(3 Bush has flip-flopped on whether there was a Saddam/al Qaeda Link.
FLIP: BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

FLOP: SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

-Nice try, Lefties! But no dice. This is not a flip-flop. Bush has *never* said that Saddam was involved in 9/11. But even the 9/11 commission concluded that Saddam had ties with al Qaeda.

(39) Bush has flip-flopped on whether a U.N. Resolution was necessary and desirable before the Iraq war
FLIP: BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

FLOP: BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [ Washington Post, 3/18/03]

-This was not a flip flop. What you've failed to mention is the fact that in the meantime we found that France, who had told Collin Powell they would support such a vote, later said that it would not. Without France and Russia's support, the outcome was clear and therefore a vote would have been a waste of time.

(40) Bush has flip-flopped on whether the U.S. should be involved in trying to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.
FLIP: BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

FLOP: BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

-Here we go again. He said that he would "strongly consider" it, not that he advocated it.

(41) Bush has flip-flopped on whether restrictions on 527s are necessary and appropriate.
FLIP: Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

FLOP: Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it ¼¼I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

-Again, not a flip flop. One can be opposed to the attack on free speech that is McCain-Feingold while disagreeing with the concept of 527's which circumvent the law anyway.

(42) Bush has flip-flopped on whether Medical Records should remain private.

-I need to see the full DOJ quote before I'll concede this one.

(43) Bush has flip-flopped on whether timelines for dictators are appropriate.
FLIP: Bush sets timeline for Saddam: "If Iraq does not accept the terms within a week of passage or fails to disclose required information within 30 days, the resolution authorizes 'all necessary means' to force compliance--in other words, a military attack." [LA Times, 10/3/02]

FLOP: Bush says he's against timelines: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators." [President Bush, 8/27/04]

-Again, sounds like Bush learned his lesson. Isn't that a good thing?

(44) Bush has flip-flopped on the Great Lakes:
FLIP: Bush wants to divert great lakes: "Even though experts say 'diverting any water from the Great Lakes region sets a bad precedent' Bush 'said he wants to talk to Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chréétien about piping water to parched states in the west and southwest.'–– [AP, 7/19/01]

FLOP: Bush says he'll never divert Great Lakes: "We've got to use our resources wisely, like water. It starts with keeping the Great Lakes water in the Great Lakes Basin...My position is clear: We're never going to allow diversion of Great Lakes water." [President Bush, 8/16/04]

-Ok, so Bush does something *good* for the environment and you still skewer him on it? Make up your minds! But, yes, this is a flip-flop.

(45) Bush flip-flopped about who created the "Mission Accomplished" banner and what its significance was.
FLIP: May 2, 2003: Bush is flown to the U.S.S. Lincoln aircraft carrier, dressed in a flight suit, and then proceeds to prance around the deck. Above him, the tower was adorned with a big sign that read, "Mission Accomplished." Declares a premature victory in Iraq, in the process revealing how little planning he has done for the Iraq occupation and how unrealistic his assumptions are about that occupation.

FLOP: October 28, 2003: Six months after he spoke on an aircraft carrier deck with the death toll rising in Iraq and reality on the ground looking increasing chaotic, Bush (at a press conference) claimed that the administration had nothing to do with the banner being hung up on the aircraft carrier and said that the Navy called for it, and that it was hung up to mark the accomplishment of the ship's mission, not the U.S. mission in Iraq. At a news conference, Bush claimed that the "Mission Accomplished" sign "was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished."

Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said at the time: "The mission for the sailors and crew on board the ship was accomplished. There are some continuing objectives we have on the security front, on the reconstruction front, on the political front."

FLIP: October 29, 2003: the administration acknowledged that it was the White House who created the banner. Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota, asked by reporters about the incident, called it "one of the most significant embarrassments of the entire Iraq experience so far. As he noted, "we've lost more lives since (Bush) declared victory than we lost prior to the time we declared victory. And this latest fabrication is yet another illustration of their (the Republican administration's) unwillingness to except reality. The administration "said that the Navy called for it, and that was a fabrication because they then later acknowledged that it was the White House who created the banner."

-You're kidding me, right!? Your best source is TOM DASCHLE? The former chairman of the DNC? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

(46) Bush Flip-Flopped on arsenic standards.

-True, but for the better.

(47) Bush Flip-flopped about manufacturing job loss and his "manufacturing czar."
FLIP-FLOP: The administration has proposed creating a 'manufacturing czar' to try and help out the hardest-hit sector of the U.S. economy. Then, they didn't appoint anyone for months. Then, they finally announced that they've chosen Jason Raimondo to fill the job (which turns out not to be a new job after all). At the same time, the president is in Ohio, denouncing Democrats as 'economic isolationists' for their opposition to outsourcing. Then it turns out that Raimondo's company had shifted jobs abroad and, under attack, Bush withdraws his nomination.

-There is no flip flop here. Bush is not opposed to outsourcing and so nominated a man who outsourced. As a public servant, Bush withdrew the nomination when it was clear the public did not support it.

(4 Bush said we must not appease terrorists, then lifted trade sanctions on Pakistan, which pardoned its official who sold nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea.

-Since then Pakistan has been one of our leading allies in the war on terror and the search for bin Laden. No flip-flop. Pakistand deserved to have those sactions lifted.

(49) Bush Flip-flopped and Broke His 2000 Promises to Reform and Strengthen Social Security and Medicare, and to Not Raid the Social Security Trust Fund.
FLIP: In his August 3, 2000 acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention, Bush pledged that "[w]e will strengthen Social Security and Medicare for the greatest generation and for generations to come." He also vowed to put Medicare on "firm financial ground." About social security he said: Social Security, he said, "has been called the third rail of American politics, the one you're not supposed to touch because it might shock you. But if you don't touch it, you cannot fix it. And I intend to fix it." Bush made an unequivocal pledge not to raid the Social Security trust fund to pay for deficits in other parts of the federal budget. “We're going to set aside all the payroll taxes for one thing, Social Security," Bush said in a stump speech four days before the presidential election.

FLOP: Four years later, Social Security is untouched and unfixed. And, with the government going from budget surplus to deficit, Bush has retreated from his promise not to spend the Social Security surplus. Bush has pulled more than $350 billion out of Social Security surpluses to pay for discretionary government spending. Overall prospects for the future look even bleaker. With record deficits replacing record surpluses and the Baby Boom generation nearing retirement age, the current Social Security surpluses are expected to join the rest of the federal government in a bath of red ink. Bush's drug law wound up costing double what Bush projected and Medicare's chief accountant, Richard Foster, was warned that he would lose his job if he told Congress and the public the true costs of the drug bill prior to passage. While the Medicare legislation made nods toward structural changes in the program, it did little to address the program's long-term solvency or to control increasing costs. Call these broken promises or flip flops- its your choice!

-Contrary to popular belief, Bush is *not* a dictator. He can not just say "make it so" and have it happen. He has to get past the obstructionist Democrats in Congress first.

(50) Bush flip-flopped and broke his 2000 campaign pledge on the uninsured.
-True, but he's actively working on it.

-whew- You guys sure know how to keep me busy. It's so much harder when you're committed to dealing with fact rather than taking the easy way out and resorting to rhetoric.

-Kiamat Dusk
Its a dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Let's recap shall we?

1. Afghanistan held successful elections recently (so much for being controlled by warlords)
2. Terrorists do not "control" any part of Iraq. They do, however, cause a great deal of havoc and grief in 3 provinces. That would be 3 out of 18 provinces. (so much for 90%)
3. No major attacks on American soil/citizens outside a warzone since 9/11.
4. In case you didn't notice-we're at war. Moreover that surplus was the result of the highest taxes in history and the stripmining of the US military and US intelligence.

-Kiamat Dusk
Turning the fan of truth on the Liberal smoke screen

Bingo.

1. Where was the outcry about these laws before?

I've always been opposed to overbearing police powers and believe strongly in due process, no matter who is in the whitehouse.

2. Why are you concerned about the erosion of some rights but not others?

On what do you base this assumption about my lack of concern? If you're speaking of the 2nd ammendmant we've alerady covered that in another thread and somewhat agreed. I will always favor freedom over restrictive laws and erosion of civil liberties, no matter who is in the whitehouse.

3. Why do you reserve sole blame for 9/11 on Bush when it was clearly planned on Clinton's watch and while Clinton had no less than 3 chances to kill or capture bin Laden?

I blame 9/11 on the people who flew the plane. Expecting to be able to prevent terrorism is foolish. The cure is worse than the disease. The doctrine of preemption put forth by Bush is insane, dangerous, and irrational. Give me freedom over imagined safety.

4. What did Clinton do that was so great?

8 years of prosperity and peace (for the most part). Clinton wasn't the greatest president, but compared to Bush he looks like a nobel laureate.

1. Afghanistan held successful elections recently (so much for being controlled by warlords)

Yeah, if you live in Kabul life is better. If you live anywhere else in the country it's exactly like it was before. The elections were meaningless to 90% of the population

2. Terrorists do not "control" any part of Iraq. They do, however, cause a great deal of havoc and grief in 3 provinces. That would be 3 out of 18 provinces. (so much for 90%)

I didn't say terrorists. I said insurgents. Iraq will now most likely be ruled by an Islamic theocracy.

3. No major attacks on American soil/citizens outside a warzone since 9/11.

100 foot tall elephants haven't stampeded either. I guess Bush should get credit for that as well. In the history of this country there have been very few terrorist attacks on our soil. Saying that the lack of attacks proves something is a specious argument.

4. In case you didn't notice-we're at war. Moreover that surplus was the result of the highest taxes in history and the stripmining of the US military and US intelligence.

We're not at war. No one attacked us except a small criminal organization, which we used as an excuse to invade two countries. The "war on Terrorism" is an excuse for imperialst expansion.

1. Afghanistan held successful elections recently (so much for being controlled by warlords)

Yeah, if you live in Kabul life is better. If you live anywhere else in the country it's exactly like it was before. The elections were meaningless to 90% of the population

-Really, and what part of Afghanistan do you live in again? I must have missed that.

2. Terrorists do not "control" any part of Iraq. They do, however, cause a great deal of havoc and grief in 3 provinces. That would be 3 out of 18 provinces. (so much for 90%)

I didn't say terrorists. I said insurgents. Iraq will now most likely be ruled by an Islamic theocracy.

-Insurgent is just a PC word for terrorist.

3. No major attacks on American soil/citizens outside a warzone since 9/11.

100 foot tall elephants haven't stampeded either. I guess Bush should get credit for that as well. In the history of this country there have been very few terrorist attacks on our soil. Saying that the lack of attacks proves something is a specious argument.

-But you're happy to blame Bush for everything that *does* happen-unless it's positive then somehow it is a risidual of the Clinton administration. Let me recap the recent history of this country:
(this is getting tedious)
1. Khobar Towers
2. Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya
3. USS Cole
4. First WTC bombing
5. Oklahoma City

And if you want to get into totalitarian AGs let's talk about Waco and Ruby Ridge, shall we?

4. In case you didn't notice-we're at war. Moreover that surplus was the result of the highest taxes in history and the stripmining of the US military and US intelligence.

We're not at war. No one attacked us except a small criminal organization, which we used as an excuse to invade two countries. The "war on Terrorism" is an excuse for imperialst expansion.

-So here again we get back to your theory that only after Americans have died is it ok to go to war. Oh wait! That's right, you've already made your position on that very clear.



-Kiamat Dusk
No chip on my shoulder

I'm glad your're so comfortable with retaliating for the lives of 3000 people killed by 19 by taking the lives of tens of thousands. I'm not.

You should be. It's people like me that keep people like you safe enough to hate people like me.

-Kiamat Dusk
Freedom fighter

Pffft. It's people like you with your jingoistic BS and elevated sense of righteousness that fuck everything up to begin with. I see very little difference between someone like you and a jihadist.

You know, as a veteran of the first gulf war, i kinda resent you staking this claim, it's unearned. unless you are too, and in that case I apologize.

Taco,

While I wear a "national defense" ribbon with a star, I don't consider myself a war veteran because I've never been in a war zone. My job in the military is more on the preventative side of the house.

-Kiamat Dusk
Active Duty USN

Ahh, I didn't realize you were serving. No problem at all with your statement then (for once!)

*throws down stake happily*

I had RL work to do, so I'm slow in responding, but - my statement with regard to the fact that I was less afraid of Al Qaeda was not intended to imply that it was because I thought we were less likely to be attacked.

This is patently untrue. Frankly, I think that our attacking Iraq, threatening Iran, lifting our brows at Syria and our poor relations with most of the European countries make another terrorist attack inevitable in ways it may not have been before Bush took office.

What I said was: On a day to day level, I am much more afraid of our local law enforcement (many of whom are, if not out right dishonest, inexperienced at best) than I am of Al Qaeda.

As I see it, I am in contact with various factions of the US Government on a daily basis, just as an average person. This involves all government levels, local, state and federal. The odds that my life will be devastated by an incompetent or corrupt individual in my own government are much greater than the odds are that I will be present in an area attacked by the Al Qaeda.

Being present in an area attacked by the Al Qaeda is unlikely, being screwed over by government ignorance, incompetence or corruption is probable.

The Patriots Act further erodes any protections that I might have had in recourse to illicit actions by my own government.

Regarding:

1. Where was the outcry about these laws before?

I have always been concerned about supreme court rulings that in defining constitutional law have further eroded individual domain. For that reason, I have been a card carrying, financial contributing, member of the ACLU. While I can't get behind everything they defend - I can get behind enough that I send them my money and I watch what they are doing closely.

2. Why are you concerned about the erosion of some rights but not others?

I am, I am also a card carrying member of the NRA. Go figure. Again, while I don't agree with everything they do, I staunchly defend the Second Amendment. The problem is, you better take a really close look at self defense laws because while you may be allowed to have your gun, you will probably lose everything you own defending yourself against criminal and civil negligence if you ever use it - even if it was used legitimately to defend yourself and your family. Thank GovCo for that.

3. Why do you reserve sole blame for 9/11 on Bush when it was clearly planned on Clinton's watch and while Clinton had no less than 3 chances to kill or capture bin Laden?

The White House has made public an intelligence briefing warning of a threat from al-Qaeda, written a month before the 11 September terror attacks. The commission investigating the 9/11 attacks had pressed for the Bush administration to make the memo public. The briefing, entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the United States", came to light during last Thursday's testimony to the 9/11 commission from US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. It was given to President Bush as part of his daily intelligence briefing.

For more detail: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1085224.htm

Rice knew, Bush knew and yet no difinitive actions were taken, not even when it was apparent that an airplane had actually hit the WTC. Why weren't the students that the FBI noted in a much earlier memo on the "No Fly" list? Why wasn't the plane that hit the pentagon shot down before it was allowed to hit? The entire incident was handled badly.

4. What did Clinton do that was so great?

Longest economic expansion in American history
The Former President’s strategy of fiscal discipline, open foreign markets and investments in the American people helped create the conditions for a record 115 months of economic expansion. Our economy grew at an average of 4 percent per year since 1993.

More than 22 million new jobs
More than 22 million jobs were created in less than eight years -- the most ever under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous twelve years.

Highest homeownership in American history
A strong economy and fiscal discipline kept interest rates low, making it possible for more families to buy homes. The homeownership rate increased from 64.2 percent in 1992 to 67. 7 percent, the highest rate ever.

Lowest unemployment in 30 years
Unemployment dropped from more than 7 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000. Unemployment for African Americans and Hispanics fell to the lowest rates on record, and the rate for women is the lowest in more than 40 years.

Raised education standards, increased school choice, and doubled education and training investment
Since 1992, reading and math scores have increased for 4th, 8th, and 12th graders, math SAT scores are at a 30-year high, the number of charter schools has grown from 1 to more than 2,000, forty-nine states have put in place standards in core subjects and federal investment in education and training has doubled.

Largest expansion of college opportunity since the GI Bill
Formers President Clinton and Vice President Gore nearly doubled financial aid for students by increasing Pell Grants to the largest award ever, expanding Federal Work-Study to allow 1 million students to work their way through college, and by creating new tax credits and scholarships such as Lifetime Learning tax credits and the HOPE scholarship. At the same time, taxpayers saved $18 billion due to the decline in student loan defaults, increased collections and savings from the direct student loan program.

Connected 95 percent of schools to the Internet
Formers President Clinton and Vice President Gore’s commitment to education technology, including the E-Rate and a 3,000 percent increase in educational technology funding, increased the percentage of schools connected to the Internet from 35 percent in 1994 to 95 percent in 1999.

Lowest crime rate in 26 years
Because of Former President Clinton’s comprehensive anti-crime strategy of tough penalties, more police, and smart prevention, as well as common sense gun safety laws, the overall crime rate declined for 8 consecutive years, the longest continuous drop on record, and is at the lowest level since 1973.

100,000 more police for our streets
As part of the 1994 Crime Bill, Former President Clinton enacted a new initiative to fund 100,000 community police officers. More than 11,000 law enforcement agencies have received COPS funding.

Family and Medical Leave Act for 20 million Americans
To help parents succeed at work and at home, Former President Clinton signed the Family and Medical Leave Act in 1993. Over 20 million Americans have taken unpaid leave to care for a newborn child or sick family member.

Smallest welfare rolls in 32 years
The Former President pledged to end welfare as we know it and signed landmark bipartisan welfare reform legislation in 1996. Since then, caseloads have been cut in half, to the lowest level since 1968, and millions of parents have joined the workforce. People on welfare during Clintons tenure were five times more likely to be working than in 1992. (Or now for that matter).

Higher incomes at all levels
After falling by nearly $2,000 between 1988 and 1992, the median family’s income rose by $6,338, after adjusting for inflation, since 1993. African American family income increased even more, rising by nearly $7,000 since 1993. After years of stagnant income growth among average and lower income families, all income brackets experienced double-digit growth since 1993. The bottom 20 percent saw the largest income growth at 16.3 percent.

Lowest poverty rate in 20 years
Since Congress passed Former President Clinton’s Economic Plan in 1993, the poverty rate declined from 15.1 percent to 11.8 percent last year — the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years. In 1999, there were 7 million fewer people in poverty than in 1993. The child poverty rate declined more than 25 percent, the poverty rates for single mothers, African Americans and the elderly have dropped to their lowest levels on record, and Hispanic poverty dropped to its lowest level since 1979.

Lowest teen birth rate in 60 years
In his 1995 State of the Union Address, Former President Clinton challenged Americans to join together in a national campaign against teen pregnancy. The birth rate for teens aged 15-19 declined every year of the Clinton Presidency, from 60.7 per 1,000 teens in 1992 to a record low of 49.6 in 1999. (It has gone up under the Bush Administration BTW

Lowest infant mortality rate in American history
The Clinton Administration expanded efforts to provide mothers and newborn children with health care. Today, a record high 82 percent of all mothers receive prenatal care. The infant mortality rate has dropped from 8.5 deaths per 1,000 in 1992 to 7.2 deaths per 1,000 in 1998, the lowest rate ever recorded.

Deactivated more than 1,700 nuclear warheads from the former Soviet Union
Efforts of the Clinton-Gore Administration led to the dismantling of more than 1,700 nuclear warheads, 300 launchers and 425 land and submarine based missiles from the former Soviet Union.

Protected millions of acres of American land
Former President Clinton protected more land in the lower 48 states than any other president. He protected 5 new national parks, designated 11 new national monuments and expanded two others and proposed protections for 60 million acres of roadless areas in America’s national forests.

Paid off $360 billion of the national debt
Between 1998-2000, the national debt was reduced by $363 billion — the largest three-year debt pay-down in American history.

Converted the largest budget deficit in American history to the largest surplus
Thanks in large part to the 1993 Deficit Reduction Act, the 1997 Balanced Budget Act, and Former President Clinton’s call to save the surplus for debt reduction, Social Security, and Medicare solvency, America put its fiscal house in order. The deficit was $290 billion in 1993 and expected to grow to $455 billion by this year. Instead, we HAD a surplus of $237 billion.

Lowest government spending in three decades
Under Former President Clinton federal government spending as a share of the economy has decreased from 22.2 percent in 1992 to a projected 18.5 percent in 2000, the lowest since 1966.

Lowest federal income tax burden in 35 years
Former President Clinton enacted targeted tax cuts such as the Earned Income Tax Credit expansion, $500 child tax credit, and the HOPE Scholarship and Lifetime Learning Tax Credits. Federal income taxes as a percentage of income for the typical American family have dropped to their lowest level in 35 years.

And here I thought I was going to bed *early* tonight! NNngggghhh!!!! I'm going to be up all night running this stuff down! Why don't you think of someone besides yourSELF sometime, huh?

However, lemme launch an initial strike and remind everyone that Clinton was also responsible for the highest taxes in US history, allowed classified missile technology to be sold to the Chinese who now have nukes that can reach the West Coast, and that many of his economic miracles were the result of his Republican congress which the voters handed him after the midterm elections.

So *there*!

-Kiamat Dusk