Trained killers sometimes do bad things

What makes a Liberal?

right up there with the myth of the Global Warming "Crisis".

7. You don't believe in absolute right and wrong. Liberals like to see everything in the grey haze of relativism. Everything can be excused. Everything is to be tolerated. Let them stone women to death in Iran, I don't live there.

Wow, Chance !

Everything you say I wholeheartedly second, except the bit about abortion in point 3.

What makes a Liberal?
1. You consistently root for America's enemies or blame America for attacks against her.
-Ward Churchill
-Michael Moore

2. You are a communist/socialist or make excuses for them.
-Both the Truman and Roosevelt administrations were fraught with communists spies as proven by the declassified Verona cables. Both turned a blind eye when warned by the FBI then turned and mocked people like McCarthy who were working to expose these people. The concept of McCarthy being a witch hunting monster is one the greatest lie the Left has ever told, right up there with the myth of the Global Warming "Crisis".

3. You are pro abortion (ie pro-choice), especially late term.
-This is where the morals/ethics issue. Anyone who would condone the murder of a child unborn or otherwise is devoid of both.

4. You talk about religious tolerance out of one side of your mouth while cursing Christians out of the other.

5. You are more than happy to spend my money on "art" like "Piss Christ" (see #4)

6. You agree with the head of PETA who said, Even if animal research develops a cure for AIDS, "we'd be opposed to it anyway because we always take the animals' side of the case."

7. You don't believe in absolute right and wrong. Liberals like to see everything in the grey haze of relativism. Everything can be excused. Everything is to be tolerated. Let them stone women to death in Iran, I don't live there.


That's it for now. I'll add more as I think of them. Any Conservatives out there have any to add?

Now, I understand that some may subscribe to some of these and not others. When I use the term "Liberal" its a blanket way of dealing with the group as a whole.

-Kiamat Dusk

Did you know a cruise ship gets an average of 6 inches to the gallon?

In defense of cruise ships, an average cruise ship also carries 4000 crew and guests. That's 24,000 people-inches per gallon, or 2,000 people-feet per gallon, or about 0.4 people-miles per gallon. Cars do about 18 people-miles to gallon when it's just 1 driver.

It's still not "good" for the environment, but it isn't as sinister as the 6inches/gallon implies.

It is every bit as sinister as I meant to imply it. Cruise ships are entirely meant for leisure .. and well they waste incredible amounts of energy for what? A hotel on water?

It is every bit as sinister as I meant to imply it. Cruise ships are entirely meant for leisure .. and well they waste incredible amounts of energy for what? A hotel on water?

But I don't think they're creating bullies out of normal, well-adjusted young men and women. The bullies are always there... they just wait for the rest of us to turn our backs on their victimization.

War doesn't create monsters. War makes use of monsters that already exist.

Originally Posted by Arcadia Codesmith
But I don't think they're creating bullies out of normal, well-adjusted young men and women. The bullies are always there... they just wait for the rest of us to turn our backs on their victimization.

War doesn't create monsters. War makes use of monsters that already exist.

That really sounds like nasty attack on our troops in general, especially that last bit. If it is that's really ... disturbing.. (and I'm restraining myself.) Only because of the possibility that I'm completely misinterpreting the comments.

Either way, I completely disagree with that. That's looking at the 1-2% of scum people we do have in the military and saying they're all like that. And the sad thing is, I'd bet that the ratio of scumbags to good people in the military is much better than the same ratio among the general public.

Sorry to bring the thread back on topic...sort of.

LEISURE IS NOT ALLOWED! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!

Seriously, though. So? A lot of their power goes to lighting, electrcity, temperature control - yes - a hotel on water. So? And as you pointed out, it's much cleaner and efficient than airliners.

The point should NOT be that the human race doesn't deserve leisure, it's that we should do it somewhat responsibly. Travel is costly, yes, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't travel.

Rather than attacking something people do maybe once a year, there's far more polluting things that could be improved that people use everyday - now THAT I see as sinister.

Why don't all houses be required to have solar panels?
Why don't we use more green energy sources?
Why are cars barely any more fuel efficient than they were decades ago when technology is out there for them to be up to 100 mpg?
Why don't more of us use mass transit?
Why isn't composting required in rural areas instead of adding to garbage disposal problems?
Why is the Bush administration LOWERING environmental standards nearly accross the board?

These are issues that are far, far more important than criticizing what may be a couple hundred ships in the world.

I believe the monsters Arcadia refered to were the people in the military who behaved sadistically, not people in the military in general.

Considering that you are making blanket statements, I can only take your attack on Liberals as a personal one that includes me. So here's a little about me:

Liberal, yes (Democrat, no).

1. I do not root for America's enemies. I am pro-empire to a degree, but have a plethora of problems with the power structure in American society and feel the need to question every single thing that our government does with suspicion.

-When was the last time you *condemned* America's enemies in a public forum such as this? When was the last time you *praised* your country?

2. I am neither a communist nor a socialist. I am a capitalist, but I really have no problem with communism or socialism as long as it's not the government I pay my taxes to (side note: because I have problems with the power structures in my own government, I also dislike paying taxes in my own country).

-How many millions of people have to die as a direct result of communism before you decide that this is simply a bad thing?

3. This is where I'm going to pull the hypocrite card on you and invalidate this question altogether. Any government-sanctioned killing is still murder. Killing is killing. "Oh, but it's done for the right reasons when we kill 'criminals.'" Alright, so murder is OK in some circumstances, so let's agree on that fact without muddying it up with any creative euphemisms.

-The killing of a human being who committed a heinous crime is not murder-it's justice. The killing of an innocent child whether in the womb or not is murder. The fact that you can't tell the difference speaks volumes about your morality, specifically the lack thereof.

Now let me ask you this- Which has accrued more social value, an unborn human (one that could potentially be born retarded or deformed), or an adult with a lifetime of experiences and is part of a society? Babies couldn't even take care of themselves without us, so we play God just by feeding them.

The religious right has no problem supporting the death penalty or putting bullets in the heads of non-Christians in other countries, but, oh no- heaven forbid we should off a few unborn babies!

-Name some countries where Christians are "putting bullets in the heads of non-Christians". Really. I'd like to hear it. While you're thinking, lemme name some countries where Muslims are killing non-believers.
Sudan, Iraq, Indonesia, The Phillippines, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Israel, Egypt...

Life is not intrinsically precious. If it was, I wouldn't use antibacterial soap.

4. I NEVER talk about religious tolerance. Period. My personal opinion is that religious people are very unfortunate. I understand that religion is very useful to absolve people of personal responsibility, act as an emotional crutch, or pacify and control the masses. I also understand that it is very important and desirable to have in a society like this one where greed is the highest virtue, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend to like it. I will never, EVER, pretend I respect them just to appear tolerant. I don't need a goodguy badge, so no side-talking from me.

-At least you are honest in your intolerance.

5. You're right to criticize government spending on art. I think the government should address the hierarchy of needs before moving on to luxuries, and guess what else isn't on the hierarchy of needs? Most government spending.

-Agreed. Let's start with welfare.

6. Gee... this one doesn't fit with me either. I'm a strict vegan, but I'm not a member or supporter of PETA. Ironic, huh? Domesticated animals are playthings that we've created over many centuries of selective breeding. Many of them would do very poorly in the wild. The amount of food wasted on them is completely irresponsible and the waste they produce is monumental. Speaking of selective breeding, even dogs are descended from wolves that we selectively bred to be adult puppies (adult wolves don't bark ); in essence we've made a species of retarded animals... And now, owners have to tote the crap of their retarded beasts while walking them. How humiliating.

It isn't animal "rights" that bother me, it's the volume of them that we choose to keep alive. ...And when it's not the issue of volume, it's often their existence that bothers me (though I'd choose to overlook that if the volume was significantly lower).

7. You almost had me on this one. I almost said, "you are absolutely right that there is no absolute right and wrong"-- but that would invalidate your assertion that I don't believe in absolutes, so I guess you don't peg me on this one either. Maybe what you should have said is that I don't believe in YOUR absolute rights and wrongs. That I could agree with.

It is no myth. Come to Canada and go visit the NorthWest Territories or the Yukon. Alaska even. Go see the mudslides those places have become.

Heck, make a trip to Antarctica and go see the iceflows the size of small islands breaking off.

When the caps melt, it means something is getting warmer. The exact cause is still speculation (ie: wether it is an increase in extra-terrestrial radiation or it is stupidly rich North Americans thinking 4 miles to the gallon is a status symbol). Personally I think it's the poliferation of petrol-burning.

Did you know a cruise ship gets an average of 6 inches to the gallon? Or that jetliners produce nearly 800 pounds of exhaust at take off? What about all the trucks and construction vehicles and factories?

Did you realize that there is an enormous amount of heavy metals in your computer right now? I see people throw them in the streets as garbage -- no wonder nearly 90% of the large-fish population is on the verge of extinction from heavy-metal poisoning -- that old playstation and monitor you threw out ends up on the bottom of some ocean some day and re-enters the food chain... so quite literally, you'll be one day eating what you threw away.

Let's also not forget that coal is still the most abundant fuel for power generation.

Modern life today is not sustainable. It's wasteful.

War makes it worse -- since Vietnam was brought up: doesn't anyone remember that the US dumped TONNES of "Agent Orange" over the viet jungles so they could see their enemy? Acres upon acres of vibrant jungle and life were wiped out. Birth defects are still at an enormous high there.

And if you're an American, I wouldn't travel to Korea or Cambodia. If you do, look at the ground and try to be inconspicuous.

Let's face it -- we're doing a real good job and polluting the crap out of this planet and yes... the ice caps ARE melting. Really, I treat you to go see some of the villiages in the Arctic circle where the indiginous villiages are being pushed out by the mudslides. It's great. Real cheery.



A short-sighted mind can only see the absolutes. A very clever mind can use them dangerously. "With us or against us." What does that mean?

The America I knew in the history books was built on an ideology of dissent. Why is that not the case anymore? Why the absolutes and why the vindictive "we are the caretakers and lord-god-emperors" of the world attitude?

I could give a piss if you're an American. I don't think any person is inherently evil by their nationality alone. I have plenty of fine friends who are American. However, if you wanna be riteous about it, buy a freakin helmet and go try and knock down a brick wall.

I just don't see the need for absolutes in politics. You might have to spend a long time explaining it, sorry.

I think this post illustrates very well that Kiamat bases his ideas of a liberal based on solely on the spew that comes out of mouths like Sean Hannity and Ann Coultier.

Kiamat, I could directly address your statements, but they are so gravely innaccurate that I'm afraid you would take my rebuttal as a personal attack. The best I could do is to say that your concept of a liberal would be like viewing a conservative as a neo-nazi. Which leads me to 2 conclusions:

1. Your concept of a liberal covers maybe, MAYBE 1% of Americans. In this case, your rants about liberals is merely a straw-man attack meant to classify a broad group of Americans as part of a very, very tiny group of Americans.

2. You need to go and speak to liberals, read some liberal writings, and base your judgements of them on stuff they actually say, not what the extreme-right spoon-feeds you.

3. It amazes me that all of your justification of the war in Iraq seems to be based on, "Well, only extremists are against it, so I don't need to actually take seriously any of the evidence coming out that Iraq is a mess."

I recommend the BBC for news. They tend to be a lot more objective in their war coverage.

Did it ever occur to you that we conervatives *are* the dissenters? I mean we're clearly the minority voice in these forums. Indeed, the American Right is the minority on the world stage. So who are the rebels now?

Yes, parts of the ice caps are breaking off...and have been for centuries if not millenia. However, the mean temperature at the poles is actually DROPPING.

Michael Crichton has gathered the data refuting the hysterics of the Global Warming cult into a novel called "State of Fear", which-to no Conservative's surprise-the Left is slamming. The fact that it is presented as a novel doesn't change the facts. There is a lot of data out there to refute the claims of Global Warming, but CNN won't let you hear it.

-Kiamat Dusk

I remember reading somewhere that 25% of military marriages are plagued by physical abuse.

Considering this number is higher then the national average, it won't surprise me that there would be a higher probability for abuse in other areas.

Personally I think the North Vietnamese were very liberal and they seemed to be willing to fight for what they beleived in.

After we pulled out of Vietnam, the Liberal North Vietnamese fought for their belief to slaughter millions in South Vietnam and Cambodia. We're talking about men, women, and children-not soldiers.

-Kiamat Dusk

First off, the woman's last name is COULTER, not Coultier.

Second, I never said that only extremists are against the war. There are plenty of moderates who are opposed to it. There is nothing extreme or wrong, or traitorous about opposition to war. No sane person wants to be at war. What's grating is the Left's absolute refusal to concede that any good has come from it or to even root for the country.

If you have a favorite team, you may not like the team's coach, you may not even like all the plays he calls, but, in the end, you're still rooting for your team and hoping that they will win. This is not what I am seeing from the American Left.

Read stuff from the Left? I watch CNN.

I read the Washington Post. I've listened to Air America. I take the time to read the intelligent rebuttals in these forums. And I even paid money to see Fahrenheit 9/11. When was the last time you read one of Sean or Anne's books? Or are you just assuming that they are full of crap because Al Franken told you so?

The BBC? Objective!? Are you crazy!? The BBC has been STAUNCHLY anti American and anti Iraq War from the very beginning right down to falsely reporting that our troops hadn't entered Baghdad when we clearly had. Their anti-American bias is second only to that of the LA Times.

I remember reading somewhere that 25% of military marriages are plagued by physical abuse.

Considering this number is higher then the national average, it won't surprise me that there would be a higher probability for abuse in other areas.