Theres always one in a crowd..or two..or three

I havent seen anything posted about this yet today, so i thought i would bring it up. Last evening i attended an AV show and tell event hosted by Misty Rhodes, and if you know Misty, shes a great person, so what happened at her event so totally upset me i had to post this. Just as the event was wrapping up, a group i believe it was 3 or 4 WANNA BE WWIIoliers< sp?> came in disrupting the event, shooting guns, setting off bombs, generally making assh*les of themselves, with he word F**k you be thrown around, it was embarrassing...i dont say embarrassing for Misty who put on a great event...i was embarrassed for the REAL group of WWIIoliers <sp?> that at one time inhabited SL...these silly,ignorant, and ill-mannered posers made the REAL WWIIoliers look a bunch of baffoons, which anyone who was here WHEN the REAL group was around is so far from the truth...Jeff Linden was at this event, or showed up as trouble errupted, and as bombs started going off, i left, knowing what was to follow, had seen it before, didnt care to see it again...this is the first event that i have attended for a long while, just because of this type of griefing...its silly, immature, and just wrong to screw up someones event with bullsh*t like this...i dont see warnings doing any good in this situation, freeze the offenders and ban them!!!!.....< deep breath>...< retires to her small corner of SL, where its safe>

That really sucks Maerl - Misty hosts really good events and I hate to see them disrupted. Hopefully they all got banned.

Maerl you know I am one of the mentors that conduct events each week and recently there has been a rash of newbs starting to try to disrupt my event. I have however noted as a male they tend to leave me a alone more so than a female.

I personally feel Mentors should have Rights during the event period to be able to "Freeze" offenders so that they can discuss it with them and when they release them if they continue to act up the ability to Remove them from the "4-Sim Juncture" where the event is held. This way Mentors could conduct events and when a person was wrong and had to be removed in such a fashion Transcripts of the log where the warnings had been notified and the appropriate action was taken could be sent into LL like an abuse report. The "Power" of the mentor would only be limited to the "Event Time" thus allowing the Lindens inworld a little breathing when it came to Mentor events so that they could police up the Individualy sanctioned events.

To me this would be no more than if I were holding an event on my land and when Griefed all I would have to do is activate a ban list and poof there goes the offender.

The tools are inplace that this could happen the only addition to it would be a simple list verification as in for the events of the day that were conducted by a mentor checking the settings for permissions on a Mentors av and setting the permissions for a set time period. It could work and would save us all a lot of grief.

I will hush now.

Shadow

There's no way I would support god-like abilities for users.

I agree with you totally shadow...this would make events alot more stable if mentors had this "limited" power as you say...i caught the last of your event as well ..something sure needs to be looked at to render these "hooligans" null and void....

Iron, hes not talking godlike..hes talking "event only" abilities....

It doesn't matter. Anytime a user has more power than another user by association is a bad idea.

Ironchef think of it like this having the same power you would on your own land.

In game every person that visits my land is at disadvantage because if I decide I do not want them there all I have to do is ban them.

The same is reverse if I go to your land you have the same authority there.

I am not recommending "God" powers by association meaning those powers are in force always. I am merely saying for events having the ability to "Freeze" and Remove an individual from the area just Like I would have on my own property.

When people conduct their own events on their own property they have this authority why is it Hosts of events should not be afforded the same rights when conducting Public Events.

RL comparison

Personal Event: I have a party. I invite select friends. I have a party crasher show up. I have several options.

#1 if I had personal security they get removed by the hired security.

#2 if I am not that rich and cannot afford it I remove them my self by showing them the door or calling the police and having them arrested as trespassers.

Public Event. Brittney Spears Concert.

#1 Private Security handles the offender.

#2 Public Police handles the offender.

#3 Peer Group aka the "Crowd" handles the offender <<this is not the most viable option because the handling could result in death.

All I am saying is look at it in a different perspective I think maybe you might have jumped too soon at what I was proposing.

But I fully understand your perspective on it and I do respect you for your comments.

Shadow

So what happens if everyone & their mom's becomes a mentor and just starts freezing & booting people for kicks or if they look at you funny.
I don't care if this is on your land, but having the power to do this on stage4 is not right.

Hey Shad

On your own land, what do you do when they come back with one account after another, and have their friends do the same?

How do you quickly and easily ban people when your group land is comprised of numerous plots that can't be joined?

How bout when they stand on the borders of your land shooting and firebombing you and your guests, and shouting obscenities?

And when they fly over your land above the ban limit dropping giant particle bombs so no one can see?

Just curious.

Candie

Y'know... perhaps... :

- remove Physics (it's server-intensive, bandwidth intensive, and hard to control). "but we need physics!". Well... in the real-world we have physics, but SecondLife is not the real-world, which is the whole point of the game (I guess?), so who says we absolutely have to have physics?

- now it's easy to mute all objects, effects, sounds and speech from any player you choose, and from their objects.

Suddenly griefing is something from the past.

Seems pretty easy solution... as a largely social game seems to have very few downpoints.

Azelda

Although I would disagree on your conclusion that SecondLife doesn't need physics (lots of things use physics). Likewise, it is more than a game, but that's another discussion entirely.

The main problem I have with removing physics, besides that if Linden did it, the griefers would "win," is that it wouldn't really solve a thing. They would find some new and innovative way to hassle you. A lot of what makes SecondLife enjoyable is the complexity, the fact that the resourceful can engage in "bad" behavior. If we wanted a "safe" experience, we'd go elsewhere (and to sleep).

Problems like this should be dealt with the same way they're dealt with in real life-- socially, through the "authorities," etc. The only way these griefers gain purchase is if you give it to them.

This would be a problem if every mentor had powers during every event. If it was granted only to those running the event, and only for the time the event was run, and only for the location the event was held (such as stage 4), it could be helpful and not effectively abusable.

As long as event powers only exist on public/Linden land, anyway. Can't allow someone to have an event on someone else's land just to ban the owner from his own place.

Remove physics? You gotta be kidding me. Might as well remove the whole 3d environment too and turn SL into irc.

I agree with Ironchef.

What we need is people in at the event to speak up and tell griefers to STOP!

It still wouldn't be right. Say I'm a mentor and I run an event. Some people show up that I just don't like and start freezing and banning. That's all possible although it's not right. This wouldn't be represented as a mentor-like thing to do but hey, like the original post, conduct by those griefers wasn't represented of how WWIIOLer's acted in the past either.
So basically, what I'm saying is report em like usual and hope they learn from their vacation.

No offense, but I can count on one hand, with 4 fingers and a thumb left over, the number of times that has worked with anyone intentionally griefing.

Removing Physics is probably the worst idea I have seen. You may think its the talk and the parties that make SL second life, but its not. If that is what you want there are better chat mediums, even better graphical chat mediums. Physics is a big part of what makes SL unique and what makes it secondlife.

Maybe the ability to turn off physics over your land would be good. I have always wanted a way to say 'only my scripts can run on my land', and an 'only my objects can have physics enabled' would be cool too. It also seems that banned peoples objects should automatically return to their owners inventory on entering your land.

First to answer Ironchefs responce in reference to Mentors.

Not everyone can or will become a mentor. This is Regulated by Linden Labs.

I cannot delve into how they do that selection because I honestly do not know. But, I can say that Mentors have been Removed for actions that goes against the agreement of becomming one.

Becomming a Mentor puts one under a lot more scrutiny.

I understand your concerns that it would become a hate fest were it unregulated. However, if proper procedures were put in place just like the "Lindens have to follow when dealing with griefers" then situations could be reviewed via the transcripts and the in game report I mentioned earlier.

I mean if one has to do that at an event it would be like an automatic submittal and if the Mentor were found at fault encouraging or provoking the actions by ill will that could be summarized by the logs.The Mentor could be dismissed and no longer allowed to conduct events as such.

This would force Mentors to conduct themselves professionaly.
With rules of conduct in place they would be held accountable for their actions.

Its no different than a security guard with a weapon they are trained in the use of deadly force but it doesnt mean they can just shoot anyone at will because they have a gun.

Again Ironchef I respect your opinion on this and I do see some validity in your points.

However, I have a question. By saying "not on stage 4" does this mean that when a host steps up to conduct an event that they forfiet rights that they currently enjoy on their own land?

and if you say yes to this question my next one is. Why should one be subjugated to assaults in a public forum such as being a host at a public event when the event is there to serve the community and not the individual conducting the event?









Candie, in reference to your questions.

#1 land can be joined its a tidious process but it also requires having enough land tier allications to do so. They recently fixed the bug that was stopping us from doing just that so if you have enough land tier allocations you can join group land.

#2 My comments were merely based on if I had a single plot of land. Yes I agree it would be more tedious to ban from seperate locations. However, the tool to dissallow outside scripts is there thus giving you and your group the authority to effectively stop the bombardments by killing the scripts that control them.

#3 as for the obscenities Mute works well for the individual that doesnt want to hear it. The only thing from that point is letting your friends know you dont want to hear it and ignore the griefers,advise your friends to take the same stance and eventually the myriad assaults will cease because you are no longer fun to grief and with no responce from you its as though you have effectively cut them out of your world.

The only drawback to mute is as a professional curteousy you have to use the muted text in a Public event if you are conducting it with it being Linden Sanctioned.

#4 as for Multiple assaults from the individual and friends alike continue to add to the mute/ban list.

These are merely my opinions I acknowledge Ironchefs respective view points.

However, as being a Mentor that has gone through Griefing attacks on the stage from individuals that I had never met before leads me to an agreement that we share the point of dissagreement on this subject.

We are human beings after all and do have that right to disagree without punitively assaulting eachother for our opinions. Thusly, I commend Ironchef in this debate.

In Respect to Candie the only thing I can offer is the advice I mentioned previously and a motto of "No Drama"

By ignoring your assailents and using the tools available. Eventually, they will tire of energy spent to attempt to get your attention when you spend less energy ignoring them than attempting to confront them.

Good Luck and I hope they cease and dissist for you I know how much stress this has caused you in the past. But keep in mind Candie that which does not kill us makes us stronger and wiser in the end.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

You can't create technical solutions to a griefer problem.

Griefers, by their nature, will always find the next "trick" as soon as you prevent them from using an old one. All you wind up with is spaghetti code, and lots of users who no longer have half the tools and abilities they used to.

I've been in a dozen online environments, from MMORPGS to BBSs.

The same thing happens every-single-time.

This is the cycle:

1) Griefers grief with X.
2) People complain.
3) Company removes/dulls down feature X.
4) Griefers find a new method X.
5) Goto 1

All we wind up with is lots of dulled down and removed features, and the griefers are just as obnoxious as they've always been. What have we gained? Nothing. What have we lost? A lot of fun features.

I challenge anyone to come up with a hypothetical fool-proof system that can't be griefed in SL. I'm fairly confident I could find holes in your system which will be exploited to continue griefing.

Disable Physics?

Fine, then people will just drop particle generators on the ground.

Disable Particles?

Fine, people will just rez 10x10x10 cubes.

Disable Cubes?

Well... heh someone did mention going back to IRC.

We've already got a system in place. Ratings and Report Abuse.

You want to know what the real problem is that lets griefers keep going? Everyone is afraid to use ratings in fear of being retaliatory-negged. I think we need to stop worrying and use those negs and reporting tools for what they're there for.

However, I have a question. By saying "not on stage 4" does this mean that when a host steps up to conduct an event that they forfiet rights that they currently enjoy on their own land?

Yes because it's not on your land. By using stage4, you forfeit your rights. There's no stopping you from running mentor-like events on your land. You just don't get the benefits such as being a mentor event, linden cash to give out, and the exposure of stage4. It is my understanding that Linden's usually pop in on events hosted at stage4. I feel they should only have the right to put the smack down.



Because by allowing those powers, the possibility of having it serve for yourself becomes available. Where would you draw at what you think would be a valid reason to freeze & boot someone? Would the Linden's have to write down every single situation where this could be decided?
Trust me. By allowing more power, you would shoot yourself in the foot.

edit: typos

I do understand what you saying Ironchef.

The thing is a "Host" has to endure because a public is frightened he or she will have to much power. This to me is the same as giving a policeman a spoon and telling him go fight crime just dont spoon them to death.

Many good events have ceased to exist in SL because "Hosts"/"Mentors" have no authority when thier event is in progress.

Some Rules to remember.

No one can be ignored at an event purposfully through the use of the Mute tools every member in SL has the right to participate within reason in an event. "Within Reason" is that they follow the rules of the event and do not disrupt it in such a manor that it forces the event to stop.

I guess my viewpoints of a "limited" authority during an event is skewed due to having endured griefing from complete strangers.

I will remove my self from this debate now as I realize that statment alone skews my view point due to past encounters.

I would like to thank everyone for reading and thank Ironchef for the profesionalizm he has shown in this debate.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I agree Kex.

We're able to report an abuse at an event when it takes place.

It's Linden's job to deal with griefers, not ours by creating some members with more powers than others.

I know it sucks been a host at times. I just wanted to avoid future drama if this actually happened. Just gotta hope a mature community develops instead of being overrun by griefers.

What You Say: Excuse me, we're trying to have an event here and your behavior is disruptive. We would appreciate if you would show us some courtesy and please stop. Thank you.

What Griefers Hear: Please keep doing exactly what you're doing but this time say, "LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!1! UR TEH SUXX!!!1@!"

Asking nicely doesn't work. Ignoring them doesn't work. The only thing that works is swift, brutal destruction. Unfortunately that's not an option so call a Linden and try to convince them that something really was happening ten seconds before they showed up.

The one time thus far i encounted a griefer I basically said -

"If you continue harassing us I WILL abuse report you and immediately IM the Lindens."

They stoped within a minute or so.

It's sad that some more-ons get off hastling others inWorld.