Business Ethics and Hypocrisy (yeah more negative stories..)

Recently, a friend of mine and a builder (neither who i will mention), have recently been involved in a business quarrel. Apparently, my friend hired someone to copy an object prim by prim. Although, I do not support this practice, the consequences of what happend to my friend were much worse than what he did. My friend owned a store, and sold the item for around 400 linden a piece and probably made a total of around 3k for the item. However, my friend scripted the item, and added a huge amount of content to it, so therefore the object itself was a small part of the whole deal.

A month or so after this began the original builder of the item, flamed my friend on the forum, and ruined his reputation without warning. Although, I do understand his anger, that doesn't give him an excuse to cause drama; business matters do not have to start off bad. For instance, recently I bought an item from someone with full perms and sold it in my store. Unfortunately, it was one of Hiro's swords and I didn't realize that till he came into my store. But, we were able to work this out like civil businessmen. Anyways, the feud grew longer and my friend eventually apoligized for his mistake on the forums and in SL. In addition, he removed the item from his store.

For some reason that wasn't enough, and the builder still bothered my friend. He still threatened to sue him (using those stupid digital right laws), and my friend heard from someone who got sued that he could get banned for what he did. To recompensate, my friend gave the builder ALL HIS MONEY. It was 20k, but, even if it was 2 million linden or even 400 linden, my friend made his money all through hard work. The item was not the only thing my friend sold in his store, he had many other goods that helped him reach his 20k goal. What annoyed me was the builder shrugged off this sum like it was nothing claiming he made 20k a week. I remember my friend worked late nights thinking of ideas and scripting, near midnight hours. In an instant, he gave it without thought to the builder, in fear that he would be banned from the game.

IT doesn't end there... The builder is still pestering my friend and I find it offensive and extremely rude that it continues. Throughout the feud, many people in the thread talked about business ethics and how it was unfair that the creator got ripped off. Well, although I do agree with them and I detest plagarism, what that builder did was more unethical than anything else, my friend's hard earned money. A simple 5k should have covered it, but I don't think it was necessary to even do that. He deleted the item from the store and that should have been the end of it. Yes, I know that's life, people get threatened like that very often for plagarism. But, plagarism is also a part of life and people should learn to forgive and forget. Now thanks to the builder, my friend's passion in SL has decreased, and his reputation which he worked so hard for has been shattered in an insant for a stupid reason.

Go ahead, flame and bash me as well, I stand up for what I believe in, and most importantly stick up for my friends...

My "3" cents.

If the creator took the money, your friend should now be left alone...

Exactly, my point of making this thread. 20k is a lot but so is 100s of hours of scripting to get that money.

My $.02:

Don't lay 100% of the blame for that on the builder. True, they may have contributed to it, but they also wouldn't have been prompted to take those actions had your friend not copied the builders work.

It's a lose-lose situtation.

What surprises me most is that if your friend is as talented as they sound, why didn't they just make thier own creation, w/o copying someone elses?

Hey Atmos,

Glad you decided to air this part of the story...and sorry he's been hit so hard he might not play anymore..

Prim copying *is* lame, and folks shouldn't support that. Your friend's should have known better!

But it looks like he made a real effort to make amends and it really sucks that he's not going to play anymore beause of his experience...

But mostly I'm impressed just 'cause you're sticking up for your friends!

I suck at building. I'm a talented scripter one may say, but not a builder. Additionally, I wasn't the one who copied it, someone else did it and I sold it, splitting profits.

So, you suck at building. Hire one to create an *original* work for you.

I suck as scripting. When I need something scripted, I hire out. That's the nice thing about SL... there's always someone out there who's good at whatever it is you suck at.

I'm a jack of all trades.... a master of none.

Thats the one thing I've really striven towards in SL since day one - to be in a position that if I need something done, I can roll up my sleeves and do it myself.

In my opinion I've not done anything 'outstanding' in Second Life - but I am proud of most of the things I did create.

Siggy.

Juro - I am not trying to defend what I did.

What I did was wrong and I admit that now. I am letting you know WHY I did it.
No reason to be bitter about me apologizing.

Oh, the guy who copied Corn's f18 hornet! Atmos, I'm curious why you started a new thread?

/120/66/26080/1.html

<SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING>
Corn is one of the most talented and kind vehicle developers in SL and his F-18 replica took him hours and hours and hours and hours - just the same as your friend in his scripting. He also has a number of other great vehicles (for sale in Da Boom) and guns that he would hate to see pirated.
</SUMBLIMINAL ADVERTISING>

There's really no excuse for the copying. Dan, I personally will never ever deal with you in business, and I warn you now, if you pull this on any of my items I will not hesitate to report, speak to all of your business associates, and post in the forums - since you have been warned. This is not just a simple matter of "Oh, I added value". This is an attack on developers and it's nothing we will put up with. I cannot possibly fathom how anyone would think this is acceptable. 20k seems a reasonable hit to ensure this never happens again, but then again, I'm not a Linden or you two and it's not my job to arbitrate or dictate punishment.

As for Corn's alleged behavior, I was not there. I can only be one of many people who speak well of his personality. I agree, Atmos, that things need to be settled professionally, and I only hope that the truth of the matter is that it did go well. Plaigarism is NOT a part of life - it is something that will get you banned from college, or (rightfully) sued, that can ruin careers and fell large corporations. To your friend, 20k may have been not much, but consider RL knock-off trade: Chinese knock-offs cost Western companies billions in CDs, DVDs, VHS, Handbags, watches... etc etc etc... while the Chinese companies may not make billions, the impact on the retailers is enormous.

Atmos, I hope you consider what I say. I wish you and your group well. I realize this is a personal issue being that it involves a friend, and vice versa with Corn and I.

<SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING>
p.s. - more sightings of the stolen katana have appeared. I doubt I will ever stop it. I do feel that we resolved our situation, and I continue to innovate my product to make other katanas on the market inferior in craftsmanship. (Except Reitsuki Kojima, a master swordsmith as well)
</SUBMILINAL ADVERTISING>

bwahahahaha!

Sorry, but im backing corn here. YOU copied his object, that is known as copyright infringment.

Happy birthday.

Atmos.

1. Copying and profiting from others people's work happens far to often in Sl, and SHOULD be a bannable offense.

2. From what you said Dan offered the 20k Lindens to the builder. If the builder didn't demand to be recompensed then you can't complain, because he didn't do anything wrong there.

3. The builder has every right to be upset and unforgiving about what basically boils down to an act of theft.

4. You are supposed to be 18 to participate in SL.

Why are people on these boards SO dense?

I APOLOGIZED AND SAID WHAT I DID WAS WRONG. I GAVE CORNELIUS 10x MORE THAN ALL OF THE SALES OF THE GUY WHO CREATED IT COULD HAVE MADE IN L$.

Why are people still acting like I'm defending what I did?

EDIT: why did someone say Atmos copied the jet? The actual person who copied the jet was Pyotr Czukor.

Umm..because your friend started this thread in an attempt to put a spin on it and make us feel sorry for you??

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

??? So what does that have to do with ME? He's not trying to put a spin on anything, he's telling you the side of the story that Corn forgot to post.

Dan, you weren't apologetic enough, soon enough. Folks are gonna be mad anyways and they have a right to.

BUT OH MY GOD - YOU GUYS ARE A LYNCH MOB!

Prim copying is *lame* *lame* *lame*. BUT it's lame because of the work put into the original. Paying money earned through hard work to make up for it *is* a way to make amends.

Paying enough to go BANKRUPT should be a sign of good faith!

But you guys are acting like a wild west mob. You wanna harras him. You want him banned!

BANNING is like the DEATH PENALTY in SL - that's totally out of line for a guy who has apologized, who's trying to make ammends!

I know we don't have a real legal system in SL - but we shouldn't act like a savage mob!

Dan should keep apologizng for this as long as anyone remembers it. And folks should feel free to hate him forever and share their opinion of him as much as they want to. But they might want to consider acting like civilized people!

Geez he didn't even get three strikes here, I don't care how guilty he is! Everybody deserves a right to change for the better after paying for the damage they caused!

i respect corn's craftsmanship, but i would like to state that a comparing a copywrite on prims is very different from a patent on technology.

the aspect of corn's helicopter that gave it it's real value to me was it's scripts, sound effects, and its textures. no one can hope to keep others from copying prims. it's a waste of time to try. the scale of this economy doesn't make any legal rocess viable. it's best to acknowledge that prim makers, although they can be highly skilled, are the most base level of content creators in sl.

unless anyone is planning on mounting a civil suit against someone else, this is all libel.

Buy a private sim and shut up.

Prim copying is indeed lame.

However, as I mentioned before .. doesn't Boeing actually own the design of the F-18 hornet?

Dont know how the law works on this, but I would take legal threats with a grain of salt.

Oh, and dont construe this post to mean I support plaigarism or prim copying. I dont. I am merely saying that is is quite possible the original creator of the replica might not actually own the rights themselves. I'm not a lawyer obviously and am not saying that *is* the case. Just that it might be.

Anyone who *is* a lawyer have an opinion? Or perhaps someone from Boeing?

-AP

Actually Boeing or Grumman couldnt really do anything to Corn as its not a total Replica.

Here is why?

#1 it was constructed using basic geometric tools given to us by LL. Now were it constructed from Blue Prints and utilized the same avionics, same GE engines and cost little over a Mill to Manufacture and looked and REALY Flew like an F-18 hornet then yes they have a leg to stand on.

#2 the design is simlar enough to be construed as an F-18 with the twin engine nacels and split tail verticle design but the model is still not a direct replica of an F-18 as the scale is off due to building Limits.

#3 the nomenclature of the name F-18 can be explained in many ways like Fixed 18 times for any other number of things so Boing cant put a copyright or Trademark on F-18 cause that can also be a Variable subtracting 18.

However, Had Corn named it F-18 Hornet By Boeing then yes, but he just named it F-18 so in the end the design of the craft is his and was inspired by the Real F-18 but its in no way a duplicate enough to create liability and law suits against him.

Unfortunately though in Second Life with a limited basic set of building tools anything can be created and duplicated just on visual inspection. But the issue was because it was Mathematicaly copied ...Ie Prim a is 1x1x1 at this height and position in world untill a geometric duplicate existed.

Now Imagine this. What if SL accepted .obj files. I would be one of the first people screaming like a banshee cause I work in 3d RL and those kinds of files can be traced back to the orginal creator quickly. An .obj file doesnt have enough data to totaly replicate or modify from but its enough to make derived works from. But SL doesnt allow that and how we manipulate prims to create an object is what defines us thus Corns Design for a Helo or Plane are safe as they were how his mind envisioned it.

There is 1000 ways to skin a cat but boiling it first makes the skining go lot easier. In essence thats what has happend with this whole Jet fiasco. Its also why I dont build things for other people any more either. Primarly due to Lack of Respect and the goal for the almighty money.

Im gonna hush now.

Shadow

That makes sense. Shouldn't it actually be called an F-18 Hornet replica though?

And again so as to not cause any confusion : the person who prim copied his work was WRONG. Thats not my point here. In fact, I dont really have a point ... more like fishing for information as this is a murky area for me.

-AP

Dan... trust me.. I wasn't be bitter. There would be no reason for me to be so. In addition, you'd KNOW if I was bitter.

I'm glad to know you had the backbone to admit your mistakes.. thats alot more than most would do.

1. Should it be a bannable offense? Tell me how it has hurt the builder at all? IF anything this feud has escalated the popularity of him. As one linden told me, "It's better to settle disputes rather than banning people left and right."

2. I can complain, because he still fought with Dan, EVEN AFTER he apologized and removed the item from the store.

3. He has the right, as I said was UNDERSTANDABLE, if you read correctly. However, I see no negative consequences from what has resulted for the builder, and, furthermore, I also have the right to be upset if I feel this situation was unfair.

4. Resorting to minor insults? Wow, tactless and immature, good job buddy.



Sorry to tell you, but the builder who started the feud on a different thread didn't create it to amuse people. He obviously created the thread to gain sympathy for his so called "loss". And I repeat again, I DO NOT SUPPORT PLAGARISM, and I completely understand that he would be mad about this. To make this clear, I created this thread to tell the other side of the story as others have stated. Although Dan plagarized, which is a bad business ethic in itself, it's morally as bad as taking someone's hard earned money, which MORE THAN recompensates for anything Dan did.

Guys, It was my impression that this had been settled between Dan and I. Let me clarify on things here.

First, the money: I did NOT ask dan for 20k in damages. He just sent me 20k unsolicited as well as his PASSWORD for some reason. Did I ask for these things? NO. I told him to reset his password BUT I kept the 20k. Had anyone of the "I made more than it was worth" crowd actually been vehicle makers you would realize 20k is a VERY SMALL amount compared to what you make on an good vehicle. Example. I made the Original Apache helicopter and Nick Fairlight scrtipted it. By the time we ended that partnership on that vehicle we EACH made close to 100k on that vehicle alone.

Second: The apology. I did not recieve an apology OR even an acknowledgement that wrong was done UNTIL that response Dan made on the other thread. This was actually the settlement of our dispute. When Dan made the apology on the forum, I IM'd him and told him we have no further problem. I consider it a dead issue unless Dan wishes it otherwise. Hopefully he does not because I'm glad its resolved.

Now, Here In front of all OUR friends, I claim the above to be totally true.

Dan, Have I lied in the above statement? Also Finally I hope, Are we done with this now?

It sucks that the one who was taken advantage of, must feel compelled to defend their actions. It stinks, I tell you!