My thoughts on the Dwell system, and why I don't like it...

I had a 2-page long diatribe about the Dwell system going on here, but my computer just randomly rebooted and wiped out my post So, here goes again.

Basically, I'm posting my disgust with the apparent workings of the new Dwell system coming into effect.


In case you don't know me in-world, I'm a builder. It's about all I do in-world. If I'm not creating architecture for myself on my own land, i'm building houses and shops for people who ask. I don't charge much... basically, recovery of the prim costs and whatever "tip" you want to give me, depending on the quality of my work (subjective by your opinion).

Another request I give to clients that I build for is the permission to plop down one of my own voting stations, so I can receive cash from people who enjoy my work.

Actually, a side track... is this illegal? Because if it is, it sure as hell shouldn't be. I built the darn thing, I wouldn't mind getting a little extra income from it. It's not like I'm selling anything tangible... just my architecture skills, whatever they may be.

Anyways, this whole system of sustaining myself is put in jeopardy by the silly new Dwell system. Now I have no way of receiving any sort of monetary gains except from what I manage to get from building for people... granted, so far, people have been overly generous to me, but sometimes I run out of cash while building... this, obviously is not good, and usually my prim costs outweigh my stipend, so I'm stuck in a rut unless I manage to get a cash advance somehow. Again, not good, and not very good business practice either.

Look, I'm a shy, quiet guy... when I log onto SL, I don't want to typetty type all day to people that pass on by the Welcoming Area. I talk to people all day at my job, and it gets on my nerves. I enjoy my quiet time, and one of the best things I love to do is make stuff in SL. Sure, I don't mind people stopping by while I'm building, but I don't want to go out and join a social circle and "lol" and "rofl" at silly things. Sometimes I do, if I want to take a break from building, but most of the time I just want to create!

The Dwell system simply rewards the social typity typities yet again by huddling around in a circle and loling and roflmaoing. Great, fine, more power to them if they want to gab all day... but why leave some guy like me in the dark?

I don't WANT to farm ratings. I don't WANT to play Pokemon and collect every Calling Card in the universe. I don't WANT to make cute little shirts in photoshop and badger people into buying them. I just want to make nice buildings.

Taking away my voting booths is like ripping the donation hat away from the hands of the panhandler.

Please, I beg of you... think again before you reward social action yet AGAIN while leaving us quiet, happy builders in the dark. It's just not right.

Think of me as one of the Dozers in Fraggle Rock... happy, cute, fun to watch, but I'll get pissed if you take away my construction (or eat it).

Lordfly

As it was explained to me by a Linden, after my voting station was removed from a build I made for a client, either you can have a voting station, or the owner can, but not both. It's up to the two of you to decide.

I was also told that in order to qualify for a voting station, a build must have a distinct purpose, and it must be large enough to incur $250/week in taxes, land and prims combined. So you can't simply put a voting station up for a separately owned portion of your client's build, or for a tiny nearby feature.

As for your comments about dwell, I pretty much agree.

I am not in favor of dwell much. The practice of putting a voter on someone else land to continue to benefit from your build seems odd to me as well. If you got an arrangement, I suppose its okay but it still seems wierd. How can the land owner benefit? Why dont you set a firm price for your work and set it free when your done?

I have sold and given away a few original artworks. I actually miss some of them, they are a part of me. The new owner wanted my work and they now have it. I am comforted in the fact that someone thought my art worthy of purchase and it makes me happy it makes them happy. But, I didnt tell them that I wanted the right to come to their house and look at it whenever I want.

The owner of the build you made for them needs to be able to have the voter and/or the dwell. They pay the taxes on it and the land it sits on. Build for the love of building, set a fair price for your work, take a picture of it when its done, and let it go.

You make an interesting point, Loki.

I did not mean to come off as demanding or anything about the voting box, and I surely don't want to rob anyone of money... I just kinda like having a steady income of sorts to fund my projects.

Is this a bad thing, anyone, or is it really up to my discretion? Don't want to anger everyone

Lordfly

As you and the land owner are in agreement, its no big deal. Just seems odd to me, thats all.

Well, new to v1.1 is the quick and easy ability to rate objects. In other words, right cilck on an object, go to Rate, then you can either rate the owner or the creater. So if people really do like your work, all they have to do is right click on your building and rate the creator, and viola, you now have higher ratings. Although it doesn't seem like it, ratings really do add up to some nice weekly stipends.

Admitedly, social gathering, or what you know as "loling and roflmaoing", is one of the things that Linden Labs tries to support the most in the game, for good reasons to. Going to a successful event causes a person to feel a happiness towards the community and the game and will go off and tell their friends about how cool the game is and cha-ching, more members show up. It's kinda hard to live as a hermit and tell people "Hey you can build stuff." and get as many members into the game as the social "loler" got.

So what this really boils down to is that hermits aren't as well suppoted as they would like to be. The real question though, should they have the support? Believe it or not, the answer is a bit on the "no" side! What you have to realize is that Second Life is reaching for a niche crowd. In other words, although I'm sure they would like to reach out to every gamer on the Earth, it's just not possible. So instead, they are concentrating on a certain type of person, the social person.

Up until this new era of MMOGs, most MMOGs were MMORPGs with leveling and treadmills. However, The Sims Online came along, There came along, Second Life came along. These were MMOGs that didn't have the RP aspect and catered to the social person. The main draw of SL over the others? The incredible amount of extra playability within the game which actually helps it reach out of the intended niche.

However, along with reaching out to far, comes problems like the one you are currently encountering. Hermits never really have made it far in Second Life, not without a good rolling-sales-rep, or somthing the world felt it needed. All I can tell you is good luck and hopefully LL can work out a system that will please as many people as possible. Until then, the dwell system is what will be pleasing the most at one time.

In conclusion, anything I say as fact is not an actual fact, it is merely my opinion/view that I have on the subject matter at hand. Not all of my opinions and views were originated within my brain-mass and were infact learned by other members of the SL community. Feel free to steal these opinions and use them as your own, just don't take credit.

Is this the standard Microsquash "Not all..." meaning none, nothing, nada (damn thing)?



As far as the dwell v. vote systems goes I'm kinda neutral. Sure, I haven't been around long, but I've gotten a few votes for my cave in Darkwood and my deck in Mocha, enough to get a bonus. I don't know how long people spend in each place, but it really only takes about two minutes (if that, even during lag) to see everything there is to see in either place, and maybe take about 5 minutes to see both -- without teleporting...

Does this mean that my vote bonus will most assuredly go away? Yep.

Not such a bad thing, as I obviously didn't create something either extensive enough or worth hanging around in. Ergo, it's not something that's necessary for, or worthy of, the enjoyment of the community. Does that smack my ego around? You bet it does... But it's the truth and cannot be denied.

As it is, with the new rate-object system, at least the work can be recognized and the ratings add a more-or-less constant bonus to your stipend.

Think of it also as a way to boost your motivation to create something to be judged "worthwhile" to the community -- thus not simply personal eyecandy taking up valuable prim-/land-space on the server.

As a non-social builder, motivation for creation is somewhat necessary...

Don't know anything about Dwell but do know we need more socialisers. If we just had builders in game we'd have a vast Dali-esque nightmare. We need people to buy stuff and to emjoy what we build

Pirate

Lordfly recently finished a terrific build for me in Tan (right next to the clock tower), and I told him to put his vote booth up on it. I did the same for the house Gwydeon Nomad built for me that I had out in Slate. I don't feel right about taking credit for a build I didn't do, and both Gwydeon and Lordfly are more than just "business associates" to me.

Furthermore, I am a socializer and I have the ratings to prove it, so I don't really need the money from a vote box. I try to spend some time every day talking to newbs because I feel that seeing a friendly face in the welcoming area and around SL may mean the difference between a trial user who doesn't convert to member and one who does.

I don't know how I feel about dwell. I guess I'll wait and see.

Both the voting stations and the dwell system are silly. You get next to no money from them. If you want to have lots of money save on taxes and spend all your cash regularly so your bonus will replenish it. Or just set up a shop.
I recently found out that a player who I had never even heard of left the game and donated all 30k of her money to a friend of mine. I think you would be amazed at how easily some people part with their cash if you set up a shop.

I think the biggest thing we have to understand is the /problems/ that have occured with voting booths that have caused the need for Dwell. This Dwell plan isn't some psychoLindenscheme to rip our builds away from us. Rather, from what I hear, a great great great majority of the bug reports sent to the Lindens had to do with Voting Booths. Dwell is made to remove a lot of the booboos Voting booths made while exploring a new way of making money. "I will defend your right to say" whatever it is you want to say, but let's give it a chance first, eh? Maybe one, two, three weeks chance before the revolt? You know that if things get bad enough (meaning--there really, really has to be something going wrong) then the Dwell system will be tweaked. Until the Dwell system puts the Beta testers' wallets in a heap of dung and pushes all the newbies into the Slum Simulator then I think we should thumbs up toward the Dwell system and just give it a go for now.

I'd say that Lordfly falls into the "builder" category rather than the "hermit" crowd, and good builders are just as important as socializers when it comes to adding to the SL experience.

I've been too busy with other stuff and haven't been paying much attention to the details of the dwell system, however as I understand it the purpose is to give economic reward for content that is actually being used. Since any build by Lordfly will have him/her recorded as the creator, it would be theoretically possible for the dwell system to detect that fact and distribute rewards accordingly. I don't know if this is in the current design, but since it isn't beyond SL technology, and since LL wants to enable good builders to continue to build then I'm guessing that builders will not be left out.

Yes, I think the new rating system allows people to rate the creators and/or owners.

I sympathize with you Lordfly. My main interest is in building. So far I tear down what I make when I'm done so I can use the money to build something else. So far the voting booths have been paying my taxes. The dwell system worries me because I don't have the enthusiasm for salesmanship or party organizing. It's pretty sweet that other people are getting you to build for them, though.

I understand why the Lindens would be focused on social and interactive aspects of the system. For most people it's going to be the real attraction. There is probably such a thing as too many solitary builders for SL's good, I guess.

LOL, if this is true, then Gray is going to give the system fits! Currently at least half the stuff there is collaborative - created by one person, modified by another, and perhaps owned by a third! The same goes for the land - in many cases, especially for the airships and the docks, land ownership is not the same as who built above it. In addition, we swap out structures on a regular basis. So, working out an actual dwell system that accounts for this would have to be a major brain-twister. As it stands, the legendary Goodwill Epoch stands to benefit the most from this, since although others have built the docks and the park in the center (which has proven popular as a place to hold meetings), he owns the land under it.

Hmmm... I think this just calls for builders to consider a new business model. It may no longer be as lucrative on the back end to build private housing, for instance, as it is to build public structures or group purpose ones. And the client's business plan for the structure, plus their reputation for drawing crowds for public events, will become big factors in determining the eventual value of a job to a builder.

It seems to me that this can all be balanced out in the way builders price their work, provided that in fact Creators receive dwell advantages as well as owners and the forumla for this is well-known and documented.

It sounds to me like, in the end, the dwell system could be BETTER for builders than the voting booths, particularly if the bonus is automatic and doesn't require visitors to actually remember to hit the little green box.

Bhodi, who is however often wrong and even more often half-right

The dwell system seems to fail the ones who invest heavily in building beautiful structures. If a gorgeous castle earns as much in bonus as a 10m hollow cube, we'll see very little nice architecture in SL, because it will be difficult for the owner to keep. Artists should be rewarded, not burdened.

I personally would hate to see SL turn into endless fields of chatrooms. Socialites contribute little more than interesting conversation, yet recieve most of the bonus cash. Why not use MS Chat, then?

Well it's too early to go off on a rant. Time for a cup of coffee.

Yes, this is true, ratings "can" add up to a lot of money. However, it's short lived. If you or your castle don't continue to receive ratings and a daily basis, your bonus goes away. So if 50 people rate your castle on Monday and then no one else does, within a couple weeks your gonna be broke. At least with a voting booth, you have a steady income.

I stated in another thread asking why the Lindens are going ahead with Dwell when it was obvious from previous posts that no one wants it. Ok, I was proven wrong. There are two groups that want it....those that blindly agree with everything the Lindens say, and scripters. Scripters seem to think that they can script objects that will keep us busy doing something on their land,thereby giving them tons of money with the dwell system. Scripters have said from the beginning that SL was for builders, that they didn't receive any recognition for their efforts....it looks like your day has come.

-TK

Well shoot I'm a scripter. Thats not why I want dwell though. Money is not an issue for me. I don't think in terms of money. I don't think about dwell as a way for me to get money or to lose money.

I think about what it is they are trying to reward and whether I think that deserves rewarding.

I think they are trying to reward 'World Interactivity'. That includes anything from a party, a game show, a garden to walk through and sit in, a shop or mall to visit, or some scripted masterpiece I suppose.

I think 'World Interactivity' is where SL has the potential to outshine the competitors by a LOT. I also think its something sort of lacking right now. A lot of builds are sort of 3D art exhibits or museums. Yes thats fine and good, but I don't think it takes advantage of SL. Even a 3D art exhibit that the person walks through however will get rewarded with dwell.

I am a scripter, yes. I also answer any and all script questions sent my way - or direct the question to someone who knows if I don't. I help with scripts, and give scripts away. With 1.1 I will be able to protect my scripts at which point I will have several scripts to sell or give away - mostly for making gambling games but thats just what I do.

Please be reasonable and don't assume that people who agree are only doing it because they havn't really thought about it. That is offensive. I know its not perfect but I think its better than vote booths. I am allowed to think that, even after having thoroughly read several other topics on it. I also don't think its as widely disliked as you claim.

I don't really think the 'dwell groups' will pop up, or at least I don't think they will be anywhere near as prominant as vote groups. People want to experience the world for one. And for another dwell is much more transparent, only showing up in your tax report. The average player is going to look at their taxes and if their 'dwell' is too low think "Hm I should throw a party" or "hm I need to make more of a reason for people to visit my place". Neither of those detract from SL, in fact they add to it. There will be more events. Thats a good thing. There will be more things to do in the world and that too is a good thing.

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard this suggested as a possibility. Let's see if it comes to pass.

Interesting thoughts, everyone, I should meander my own reply about this again

If Andrew's thoughts on the Dwell system are correct, then I mostly detract my statements about the system. My original thought was that the person owning the land would get credit, but if it uses some sort of sensor system to detect the prims around the group, and then calculates the bonus accordingly, that's a lot more fair in my humble opinion. Marely rewarding the land owners creates problems for many.

I'm also glad that I'm not alone in this regarding the dwell system... obviously it needs a few tweaks before everyone is happy.

To those that dismiss my concerns out of hand, to tell me to just "open a shop" or "change my business model", that sort of defeats the purpose of me playing the game, now doesn't it? If I WANTED to open a shop, I'd have one filled to the brim with stuff already. And if I wanted to statiscally analyze the economy and come up with a shiftable business paradigm (new business model in exec-speak), I'd have an economics major

I like building things. My eventual goal within SL, when I get Big and Powerful and Rich and QuasiEvil, is to build humongous structures... Great Works I call them. Stuff like, the Great Wall, or maybe a huge, vast garden, or maybe the Sears Tower... I don't know, just things that would fit in nicely to SL and be enjoyed by most of the residents. I want to change the landscape permanently with positive-looking development.

Without builders, the game would be a rolling landscape, devoid of interesting architecture to grab anyone's interest... as a result, most would stick in the WElcoming Areas and not explore. This is most evident in Alphaworlds, for instance... the Welcome Area in AW is pretty nice, but there's nothing immediately eyecatching to the rest of the inhabitants to coax them to go explore.

If a newbie comes into the Welcoming Area and sees a large, wonderous shop over the horizen, they want to explore it. They don't know anyone in SL, so the first inclination is to explore. That's my job... to induce them to explore

Sometimes,y ou don't need a wacky scripted physical ball bouncing around the room, or helicopter rotors, or a cannon, or a Game of Life simulator... sometimes, just the architecture alone is enough to cause people to explore

Lordfly

Good discussion, and I must agree with Ama in her assessment of the impetus behind dwell. Providing even more in-game incentive for social interaction can only be a good thing, I think. Who can say, though, as I'm sure the Lindens will tell you, it's hard to predict human behavior.

I also agree in part with Dave Zeeman that social interaction is a high priority for LL. SL is after all "multiplayer." But I certainly don't think that LL is ignoring the builders and scripters. Unless LL decides to build the SL world themselves, the builders and scripters are vital to its development. For me the great thing about SL is that appeals to a potentially wider audience than some of the other virtual worlds many of which cater heavily to the socializers and place huge restrictions on the builders.

Bhodi may be right in saying this may require a different business model for builders. For private stuctures they may have to charge more $ up front. But that's just what people who sell clothing and accessories (for which I am waiting for 1.1) do.

(Hmm, that gives me an idea for a new system called "wear" in which clothing designers get rewarded for how long someone wears their designs.)

I understand Lordfly's point as well. Changing business models is a pain in the rear to be sure -- especially when there's no pre-existing model!

Awe, come on, Lordfly, if you can say "shiftable business parapdigm" you can figure out that you should charge more for houses, less for public buildings, and maybe even take a chance on building something you really think will catch on for little up front and more on the back end. I figured it out, and I was an English Major. Besides, you're smarter than I am, so anything that's obvious to me must be even more so to you!



Okay, I'll give you that the dwell system may make it less desirable to build large structures that have little public access, such as The Great Wall. Such works would obviously have to be funded with money earned from building other, more socially oriented, constructs or through a system of patronage. On the other hand, a garden could be designed with public use in mind or not. If the dwell system makes builders stop and think "I should put in a gazebo so folks can have events in the center of the garden," is that a bad thing? Is it a GOOD thing to have large builds that are unfriendly to social interaction? I have to say, I've seen some beautiful constructs that are impossible to move around in, are designed in a way that would make it difficult for any real use to be made of the space, and clearly were built with only thoughts of form, not function. Is there anything wrong with rewarding builders who take BOTH into account and create beautiful, usable builds?

I think there are a lot of complicated issues at play. I'm sorry if you thought I was being dismissive of your concerns (note that I wrote my post AFTER the reply about creators also getting credit), that wasn't my intention. Maybe we should hold a discussion on it at your Political Discussion forum in game? <grin>

Bhodi and her big mouth

...

Note on what Andrew said about a creator's objects being at a high-dwell locale.

Here's the situation I see happening if this ever is implemented.

Person 1: Dave's holding a match game! Woohoo! Yeah, in Zoe at his casino!
Person 2: Oh cool!
*Person 2 builds 10k worth of .1x.1x.1 cubes and places them inside Dave's casino*
*24 hours go by*
Dave: Why was my dwell cash so low?
*Meanwhile, elsewhere in world*
Person 2: BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Get it?



Please try your best not to over-generalize groups in Second Life. As a builder/scripter/eventer/socializer, I just feel left out!

Although what you say about scripters and their "thoughts" may be true, I on the other hand have never thought of that! This could be because I'm not primarily a scripter, or, it could be for the following reason:

I like dwell because I notice that a lot of people like to visit my builds, yet, not vote at a voting booth. This of course brings up the question as to whether the booth is useless or not and in my case, I find it useless. With that out of the way, I had a backlash belief that dwell was bad, because it gave event creators who held events on their land the ability to cash in more than the $500 that Linden Labs offers them, as opposed to say, events taking place at Stage 4.

In the end, I have my reservations about both systems. Ever since SL went live, I've felt that voting booths were castrated because the pool of $10,000 was never raised, when quite frankly, it should have been. The dwell system will bring up questions as to who Linden Labs is allowed to advertise through their new services, the same way people on TV shouldn't say brand names because it may inadvertantly hurt or help that brand. I see the dwell system as yet another idea that will come like the voting booths. Just like them, dwell will probably drift away too. What comes of this, who knows. If you have an idea, speak up, Linden Labs needs you

If there is no room for the builders, then perhaps LL could build alll their own content?

That's a silly statement to make, man. SL NEEDS player-created content to look decent. If all anyone has are purple cubes as houses, well, the subscription rate for newbies is going to plummet. People need to be impressed visually, and LL isn't just going to sweep us aside and keep giving things to socializers

right?

We need a builder's union..


Lordfly