Self Gov't/New Job Discription with LL

I noticed that a new LL job was posted today and as part of the job discription this was noted;

"SL has a rich culture with important rituals, a value system, and a community based system of governance "

So I take it we are headed for a self governance without complete agreement. Again I do believe LL is putting the cart before the horse.

I disagree with self governance for the simple fact that most of those in power are corrupted by power and money.

I dont think its nieve to think that its only a matter of time that those who already have power will be seeking office and ultimate power over the community.

This not only scares me but it drags me kicking and screaming one step closer to RL. I joined SL to get away from RL.

Catherine

I think you might be reading a bit too much into this.

Cue the long line of "I am opposed to government in SL" posts. * sigh * I love ya, Catherine, but here it all goes again. This is one of those Pandora's box kind of subjects.

What part of LL posting a job opening to include "self governance" is over stated? Its their words not mine.

For LL to post a job that already states some of what philip said in the town meeting is a bit premature IMO. Makes me think they are not only very serious about this but are planning on it. Yup that is news. Also its kinda hard to argue a point LL made not me. I however do wish to state my opinion of these 2 new things TODAY.

*ignores any government anyway*

Enough said.

If a goverment was put in place, I would make a check list which had every rule and check them all off as I broke them.

perhaps even muiltple checks, as in muiltple I mean thousands.

well Eins and Ryen that would be an option. I can't help but wonder what kind of power these ppl will realy have. I mean realy most ppl cant get it together to be in the same place at the same time much less try to govern over. Just pisses me off that ever time I get back to my comfy happy place in sl they pull some such bullshit again. If it aint broke dont fix it! duh.

Catherine, you might wanna note that it says 'Has'. Not will have. Not is planned to have.


So I don't really think they mean it in the sense you're talking about- maybe they mean the player based communities- although, I haven't been in-world for more than 15 minutes in.. man, like, six months now? So I don't know if anything like that even EXISTS anymore.

People do, for the most part, govern themselves. This happens without formal governments, even. While localized governments have emerged and continue to emerge, this quote... well...

Indeed.

Catherine, as others have said, I think you might be reading into that a bit much.. let me elaborate:

"SL has a rich culture with important rituals"

Well... we do have a culture, but what it is is debatable at the very least. I'm not familiar with any ritual other than login/logout (and shopping).

"a value system"
Again, debatable. The value system of SL varies widely depending on who you're talking about. Catherine's values are probably very different than mine, which are probably very different than someone else's. Seems its a blanket statement that *could* apply, but to be fair needs to be broken down to truly apply.

"a community based system of governance"
This is another blanket statement. It is true, but could be not exactly what you think it might imply.

Let's say, for an example, I pull out my gun and shoot Catherine repeatedly while she is busy creating some amazing new content for SL-ers. If I don't stop when she asks me to, she reports me to LL.

That is as much an example of community-based self governance as the Neaultenberg project is. Different flavors, but they both fall into the bucket.

In addition, it refers to an existing state.. 'has' (as someone mentioned earlier). I think it's safe to say that LL is referring to our ABILITY to police ourselves for bad/naughty/disruptive behavior - and not about a governing body of SL residents.

"Posted on November 19, 2004."

o_O

We are self governed.

I govern myself.

You govern yourself.

Bob governs Bob.

How is that hard to understand?

Government - Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.

(This already exists in Second Life via LL and the Lindens within it. They hold power over the SL community, and their 'managing' and 'administrating' of this community is a solid act of governing.)

Community - A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.

(SL being the community under the same government which LL 'already' applies to it.)

The act of governing can be a pretty wide-range topic. Look up the word 'government' sometime and note the number of definitions you find. I chose the definition that best suit the Second Life community. The point is LL already governs SL.

I understand where Cat is taking this, and how she views it. Just take a look at these two statements from LL's job offer at http://lindenlab.com/community-manager.html the source from which Cat brought all of this up (These topics are outcomes that LL wishes to achieve via the job applicant.):

- User groups are actively involved in managing the SL community
("The managing of the SL community" as in "Governing" the SL community" and "User Groups" as in the committees or departments formed within the community to govern it. "Committees and Departments" are government-based. This is LL's job. They're obviously handing down power to the SL community itself, which I view dangerous and unstable.)
- SL has a rich culture with important rituals, a value system, and a community based system of governance

In my opinion, it reads as if LL is attempting to transfer their position of governing the SL community to the SL community itself, basically let SL run itself, not by transfering ALL power to the SL community, but enough to make it happen, and via the future applicant for this new job offer. Live Help was created to relieve pressure from the Lindens by appointing the responsibility to the SL community itself, and they're doing the same thing with their responsibility of governing SL as well.

I trust LL and the Lindens who manage and administrate our community. Handing their power down to the selected few within the community and eventually forming parties which will govern us, I do not trust. I enjoy the type of government LL institutes into our community. The community structure, in my opinion, is great, and i'd hate to see it change. Like Cat said: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

But of course this isn't the matter of anything being "broken". It's the matter of LL wanting to relieve responsibility from themselves by instituting it into the SL community. It's no different than someone who starts a company, and by the time of it's successful completion and prosperity, they've appointed all responsibility to others active within it (letting the company run itself), rendering them responsibility-free. Every person's dream, for sure.

I just checked the LL Employment pages to see what was up with this, because if it seemed LL had already decided something I too would be concerned. I found the line Catherine quoted in the listing for a Community Manager (http://lindenlab.com/community-manager.html).

The section heading of "Performance Outcomes" seems to me to be very very slightly misleading. From that heading I would think this is a set of things the person in this position will be expected to achieve. But the text of the items is clearly (to me) a description of what SL is. Each preceding bullet item describes an aspect of SL as presently constituted.

So I can understand some confusion, especially given that governance was just discussed today in the town hall. But it also seems extremely clear from content that this isn't a job listing for someone to come in and impose a preselected form of governance on anyone. If anybody truly has such an agenda, this job listing is not evidence of it IMO.

Now with the serious bit out of the way... So much for "SL Residents trust the communication they receive from LL" eh?

I just want to know what the important rituals are, and why I've missed them so far!

Lisse you havn't missed anything. When "important rituals" was stated, it was stated as a hopeful outcome via this new job offer. Now, important rituals as in SL holidays, memorials, etc. This is very government-based.

Zippity, I can't agree with you there. Yes, they were bulleted under "Performance Outcomes", But if these bulleted items are describing what SL already "is" then it doesn't make any sense to put these statements under "Performance Outcomes" and on top of that, hire someone to achieve these outcomes.

They're labeled under "Performance Outcomes" because it's what they are striving to achieve, through the applicant of thier job offer.

I'm totally opposed to player government, in the Ulrika sense, when it intrudes on MY enjoyment of the escape that is my Second Life......HOWEVER, I didn't read anything into the statement, other than what has been pointed out by other posters. Personally I don;t think there's anything untoward going on........it's simply a matter of interpretation.
See sig.....

If LL doesn't redefine their Job offer here: http://lindenlab.com/community-manager.html
Then it totally contradicts Robin Linden's statement, above.

For those of you who are not entirely clear on my posts here let me quote my sources for you. Both of which were either posted by LL today or said by Philip today in the town hall.


the newly created position:

http://lindenlab.com/employment.php
community manager position
http://lindenlab.com/community-manager.html
community manager job discription

Linden Lab
Role Definition: Community Manager
Purpose: This role contributes to the organization's success by developing and supporting the Second Life community with consistency, communication, and clarity. Specifically,
Creates and manages feedback loops between the community members and Linden Lab
Shapes the culture of Second Life
Ensures the community has the tools it needs for content and process development within Second Life
Identifies and works with community leaders in managing the community
Performance Outcomes:
Second Life has increasingly interesting, interactive experiences designed by its residents
SL Residents believe they have a voice in new feature choices and design
SL Residents trust the communication they receive from LL
User groups are actively involved in managing the SL community
SL has a rich culture with important rituals, a value system, and a community based system of governance
Critical Performance Attributes:
Experience with online community management
Understanding of social networks
Experience with mediation or dispute resolution
Knowledge of the process of software design and implementation
Online social skills
Project management
Forum moderation
Social network analysis
Written communication skills
Integrity
Creativity
Energy
Judgment and intelligence
Flexibility
Initiative

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Some of which Philip said that also pretains to a self governance;
/3/1e/28182/1.html
Philip Linden: There was a question on whether we'd like to set up an advisory board to discuss stipends...
Philip Linden: the answer is YES... we will work on that, as I said.
Philip Linden: Seems like the only way to go.
Philip Linden: Let the community decide where the incentive money is to go.

Philip Linden: There were some question about legal structures...
Philip Linden: about SL supporting contracts, corporations, etc.
Philip Linden: I think the most important issue here is recourse...
Philip Linden: what happens if you break the contract?
Philip Linden: I suspect that the long-term answer to this is there is some sort of judiciary,
Philip Linden: that decides what happens to you in cases where law is broken.
Philip Linden: I don't think that LL needs to build much structure to support this stuff...
Philip Linden: I don't think a specific idea of 'corporation' would be useful...
Philip Linden: better to create some very very basic system for agreements,
Philip Linden: and let everything get built on that by you guys.
Philip Linden: So I think that the question for community discussion is...
Philip Linden: if there are contracts, and you break one, what happens to you?
Philip Linden: This is the key question to resolve.

You: LordJason Kiesler: Would a judiciary system ran by LL be any better than the already in place abuse reporting, as in, will things be randomly be taken care of, and the rest just get auto formatted replies that solve nothing?

Philip Linden: There are more people available in SL than at LL, and people who are closer to the issues,
Philip Linden: so I can't see how LL's system could beat a good resident system,
Philip Linden: HOWEVER,
Philip Linden: a main value of SL is freedom and inclusiveness,
Philip Linden: and any proposal would have to support that.
Philip Linden: We will not allow the world to become overly restrictive.
Philip Linden: that is the challenge I see.

Edit to add the following posted by Robin;
/130/43/28164/1.html

Conference Call with Land Owners
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Recently we asked 20 people, chosen at random from a list of the largest land owners in Second Life, to participate in a conference call about owning land. Four actually called in. We talked about why they own land, ideas and concerns about the auction process, and general issues about land. Many thanks to those who participated! "

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Its apparent to me that LL at the very least is nudging us tword a self government.

As for the last quote by Robin I see that as a sign of forming a polling of a certain more powerful group. Does it have anything to do with government? I dont know but the timing was very interesting.

Well of course. Agreed.

When I read it, I simply assumed that having a description of the way SL already is under this heading was a mistake. That's all. I could also conceive of having it in that section because the new hires goal is to support SL the way it's already working.

What I cannot get from this is any sense that the message LL is sending to potential hires is, "Bring your jackboots and riding crop, mate, it's time to crush these rebel scum!!" </hyperbole>

Anyway, I don't mean to ram my interpretation down anyone else's throat. If you see it differently, more power to you. I honestly just meant to help WRT whether this job posting meant anything sinister was afoot.

Concern over any one group of SLers being installed as a hegemony is a valid concern, one I'd share, but there are other threads where that conversation is already taking place.

Thanks Zip good points. I'm not yelling the sky is falling just a few things that were all said about the same time. Coincidence? Since I have been around for a long time I have in the past seen the patterns of things to come before.

Thats all.

Edit; Naw i dont see LL government as anything to fear, hell we live it already. I do however fear a few power crazy assholes I have met in SL.

Is it my imagination or has the epic novel thread about government missing ? I remember Robin killing the debate by making a statement that it would not happen . Now when I search, the thread is mysteriously gone. 500 plus posts missing from everyone and this thread is gone too ?? hmmmmm, conspiracy theory anyone ?

Don't forget dancing and sex!