Oriental

what is so offensive about this word? i'm jsut curious. none of my east asian friends know. they just call themselves asian now. we think that's a stupid (but nonoffensive) description too because asia is a darn big place to be from.

Curiously in British English asian means someone from the Indian sub-continent. It is often used as a racist insult. Make of that what you will...

Hmmm well... Alot of my asian friends call themselves Asian OR Oriental....

I mean what happens if you wanna buy an Oriental rug? or furniture? is it RUDE to call it by that?


Alot of the Chinese Restuarants in my area state that they sell Oriental food.

Its a good question, but I think the answer lies purely within personal taste and beliefs.

I think it was because it's not a race but a style of furniture or living perhaps. The word Oriental usually denotes an object. Also, I thought it was more polite to identify someone by the specific place of origin, such as Japanese or Korean.

I'm also sure just like Negro, while a correct term, was often used in a derogatory manner, Oriental was probably used the same way. Or for instance, I work with a woman from India and she uses the term colored whenever talking about an African American, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. It also amuses me because she's several shades darker than I am and doesn't consider herself of color. So it's probably a cultural thing. She might thing she's being respectful by not saying black.

I just try to be respectful by trying to fully understand.

I'm of the belief that every time society comes up with a polite or sensitive term to refer to a group because they are a minority, or disabled, that term will gradually become offensive as it becomes employed by schoolyard bullies and standup comedians.

Examples of formerly polite ways of referring to people of African (black) descent:

Negro
Colored
Black Folk
Afro American

Most of these terms will nowadays be greeted with a stony stare, or outright hostility if used directly to describe the people in question. Even the current nom du jour, "African American", sounds very nice but is covered with silly political garbage preventing it from being effective, mostly because "African" does not necessarily mean "black". Try explaining to a college admissions board that you are African-American, because you were born in Egypt, and moved to the US. Basic geography notwithstanding, they won't buy it.

Other examples include our references to the mentally handicapped. Former everyday expresssions of note:

Idiot
Moron
Mongoloid
Retarded
Retard

And our current favorite, "Special" is quickly joining the ranks of insult-term rather than sensitive-term.

"Oriental" I think is at the point where, if used as an adjective, it's out of vogue. ("Mr. Lee is the only oriental parent on our PTA"

If used as a noun, it's degrading. ("Mr. Lee is the only oriental on the PTA"

Give it another 2 decades and it'll probably be considered all-around insulting. In the meantime, the schoolyard bullies and comedians have time to work on the currently-innocent-sounding "Asian", and try to find ways to turn that into an insult.

I was unaware that Oriental was a derogatory way of describing someone from an Asian Country but I'm glad that I know now.

I think that there are two types of disrespect one born of ignorance and another born of hate and/or perceived superiority. I hope that the one born of ignorance is forgivable.

It's a funny thing though, when people refer to my dad as Native American he will correct them and say he is a Blackfoot Indian, not a Native American. Lots of older Native Americans feel this way. OTOH - a lot of the younger generation get really upset by the word Indian which has been used in a derogatory manner and is also technically not correct.

My dad is correct, whereby in the eyes of his tribe he is a Blackfoot who's nation happens to be in America (reservations are sovereign nations - sort of). Being called either an American Indian or Native American kind of lumps all people who existed here before the settlers came as the same, but they were not. Most of them perceived themselves as completely separate countries where they fought against one another and formed alliances as well.

Oriental does denote a very broad description of a number of different countries, all unique, coined by Europeans, many of whom forcibly occupied or colonized some Asian countries.

Just my 2 Linden.

Negro - remember the United Negro College Fund? still around.
Colored - what's the CP in NAACP stand for? yup.
Black Folk - "say it loud, i'm black and i'm proud!" black is beautiful.
Afro American - i dunno what happened here. how's Afro more offensive than Euro?

basically goes to show that just like artificial sweeteners all the non offensive terms turn out to be harmful eventually. in other words people who want to be offended will always be able to be offended. today's good word is tomorrow's bad word cause one side has to insult and the other side has to feel insulted or nobody can get out of bed in the morning. maybe we can stop the cycle if we just decide to stop being offended by stupid shit.


that's really cool. i saw a documentary one time that said the native people of america were just as linguistically and culturally diverse as Europe was but it just didn't look that way from the outside. course europe doesn't look all that different from the outside. everybody dresses basically the same and eats the same basic food, works the same basic jobs. it's not until you understand people that you see the differences.

anyways blah blah basically you got to move on, live your life, teach your kids to respect everybody and let the primitive minds die out in the end.

One could read Edward Siad's book Orientalism if they were feeling particularly academic about the subect of how we Occidentals have used the term and its connotations (ranging from derogative to foriegn, exotic and amazing). But seeing people think of it as a racial slur is a new one on me. I could understand if it were used in the context of a phrase like "d--- orientals" but an "oriental rug" is a highly prized (and expensive) home accessory, "oriental food" is an innofensive catch-all for a bunch of regional (and yummy!) cusines. So there's a lot to be said for context too.

(Of course given the choice, I'll use "Asian", or better yet the term that actualy relates to the nationality in question. Which isn't so easy: people from the different parts of East Asia can tell each other appart, which I'm not experienced enough to do unless they start talking in either Chinese or Japanese. And if they're not from China or Japan, I'm lost.)

My observations

1. Most people I've met who use the expression "oriental" are unaware that some consider it an insult
   
2. The few people I've met with grudges (or antiquated ideas) about Asians use words way more demeaning than "oriental"
   
3. The justification I hear most about what makes "oriental" a bad word is something like "Oriental should describe noodles and furnature, not a race". This doesn't make any sense to me. Selective logic. One could just as easily argue:
   "Asian" refers to a continent- a non-living landmass and therefore indentifies them as not only subhuman but inhuman.
   or
   "Asian" crudely dumps multiple, diverse cultures into a crude "they all look alike" whole, thus denying their individuality and their humanity.
   
   

I use the expression "Asian" isnstead of "Oriental" mostly because I don't want to be considered backward or rude, but I don't see a major difference between the two.

I have friends that are Chinese....Vietnamese....Korean....and Japanese and not one of them has ever thought the word oriental was an insult or a slur....I have actually heard them using the word describing other asians and or an asian community. One friend went as far as to correct a woman who chastised someone for calling my friend oriental ....in her words "There is absolutely nothing wrong with the use of the word oriental and I don't need anyone to defend me with politically correct nonsense".



hopefully one day all the people associated with political corectness will die and the rest of us can get on with life.

If an East Asian person tells you being called "Oriental" is OK, one of two things is going on. Either they're much too "cultured" and face-saving to tell you it's not preferred, or they're insulting you by privately affirming your ignorance. Another possibility is that you're talking to a person of East Asian descent who lives in a western country, where a thick skin and a different outlook is necessary in order to prosper. The term Oriental is an western invention. To use it is to demonstrate a certain provencial lack of manners and unawareness. But to point that out to you publicly, without knowing you very, very well, also shows a lack of manners.

You cannot conclude anything about East Asians without understanding that social relationships and ways of expression differ enormously in lots of ways. And no, it's not comparable at all to the difference between, say, Americans and the French. It goes much deeper.

Political correctness is an American conceit. It has no bearing at all on how East Asians think or behave, and no relevance to the question of "Orientalism".

I've lived in China and Japan. I know how many people in those countries feel about the western concept of "orientalism".

Ok:

I'm Thai, and we've never been colonized.

However, being called "Oriental" brings to mind old Englishmen with pipes who used to have a willing young masseuse named Suki.

So, yeah, it's kind of insulting, and I'm not gonna throw a fit about it, but if anyone does call me Oriental I'll assume they're either A) ignorant or B) full of themselves.

It's not really an issue, in my opinion, as to whether it "should" be insulting or not. It simply reflects more on the person who is using the word.

but (woah) aren't we westerners? identity can only be defined by the existence of the other. if in the orient (which is the place to the far east where the sun rises) there are a bunch of people, how is it ignorant to call them oriental in our languange (western - english), or any different than calling them asian or eastern.

i can understand the reasoning where in some places oriental might be used prejoratively so then would that mean it's only offensive to east asian descent people living in north america?

wow Oriental is an offensive word?
It's used in the most positive tearms here that i am from.
who would have known, i am just very suprised by that

It's offensive because the term was invented by westerners during the period of western imperialist expansionism into East Asia several hundred years ago, and applied to East Asians without their say-so. And the European record of imperialism in East Asia was not pleasant.

In other words, for example, I've decided to call you a Ding-Dong, despite the fact that you call yourself an American, as do all Americans. I call you a Ding-Dong for 300 years without bothering to find out whether you approve or not, and you are too polite to tell me to stuff it. In the meantime, until recently, I behaved rudely and with moral superiority toward you. Now you express surprise when you find out that I was mildly offended all along.

No offense intended, btw. Just reaching for an analogy to illustrate the situation.

Also, the sound made by the word "oriental" is a bit similar to the sound of the Chinese word for certain body functions. That doesn't help, because Chinese was a predominant language in East Asia.

I can only speak in the context of the American society (i.e., the U.S.). The term Asian Americans originated in the late 1960's, when Asian American activists sought to end the use of the term Orientals; this was happening during the American cilvil rights movement. Asian Americans saw "Orientals" as a term that reflects negative European and American colonialist attitudes toward Asia; they also saw it as an antiquated word that is associated with foreign or exotic objects.

I don't use the term Orientals to indicate people of Asian descent because I do see it as an outdated term. I don't refer to Asia as the Orient. More importantly, I don't use that term because Asian Americans as a collective said that's not the term that they want to be used to label their identity. I would never be the one to consciously take the power of naming onself.

People have said words are just words and terms come into fashion and out of fashion. I am not a linguist, but I recognize the power of words. We shape our language, but language also shapes us. The change in labels over time for me reflects change in thoughts. I hope we are becoming more thoughtful.

no offense taken of course, seth.

but you wouldn't call me me ding dong unless it had an approrpiate meaning in your language+culture. the orient meant the land in towards the eastern horizon. for example. the english middle east is the french moyen-orient. it's not a racist term at all but a geographic one.

in english we call germans german. but germans call themselves deutsch. i don't think it's wrong at all for us to nevertheless call them germans . when speaking english, a german will call themselves german, not deutsch. there are so many examples like this.

a little offtopic, there are examples where a people call themselves by what they are named by another. because before the other, they were everyone. hindus only came to call themselves that when they were named so by the ancient civilizations of the ancient middle east. until then there was no reason to name oneself.

i think this is where it differs, because it is no longer just a term for outsiders, but also was employed for those who were part of american society.

i think it's also why none of my asians friends were aware why they were calling themselves asian and not oriental, because the movement originated south of the border and has likely filtered through without the related political activism.

Very interesting Rose and now this has me delving into research. Myself being descended of the Seminole nation I am curious to the origination of the word 'Indian'. I had never thought about this until now and you so eloquently described the diversity of the sovereign nations. I'll get back to ya.

But it does have meaning, for two reasons.

First, subsequent events (imperialism, exploitation, racism) gave it meaning. For a long time, thousands of years, East Asia was the center of the most powerful and sophisticated civilization on the planet. That civilization was brought down by bizarre, ugly, hairy, huge, clumsy, undisciplined people from far away, people who didn't take baths or brush their teeth, who smelled and ate disgusting food, who did not act as polite visitors should, who were more interested in money and commerce than things of real value. Any wonder why East Asians might not accept these people's name for them, especially when this happened in relatively modern times? (Again, no offense to anyone, and no excuse for how East Asians saw Europeans. Unfortunately, racism is a human problem.)

Second, keep in mind that concepts, values, ethics, and social behavior in East Asian societies can be vastly different from the West. Germans and Canadians are very similar in these regards, compared to Canadians and Cambodians. "Naming" a people falls under a category of conduct that is much less acceptable in East Asia, especially when the naming indicates that they are "other" than you. The concepts of extended family and community are extremely important in East Asia, compared to the rabidly individualistic West. When you separate people, as you do by using terms like "Oriental" and "Occidental" (land toward the western horizon), it may have very different implications.

Ultimately, it's best to try to be aware of others and defer to their preferences. But it has been especially difficult for East Asians and Westerners to do this, because of some of the different characteristics of their societies. I think that's changing, however.

I have asian friends who have described themselves as ""oriental" as well. I think an official memo needs to be sent out to the world about this word and what it implies so that we can all be on the same page.

Well, I work with members of all countrys from the Pacific Rim thus to avoid impolight societal insults I only refer to the individuals I am speaking to via thier name.

If any one askes where they are from or anything to that nature I simply denote their country of origin thus not associating them with an Ethnic background.

As Rose mentioned earlier with the Ethnic Diversities and smelting of ethnic blood lines across the world can one person truly claim a singular ethnic back ground.

Seriously there is always some out of ethnic chum in the wood pile somewhere in the family.

Thus Id say it was safe to just denote country of origin and let ingorance do the rest for those that need labels.

Shadow

seth, it is one thing to argue that asian americans no longer want to deal with the baggage of the term "oriental" as members of american society, and an entirely other to say that east asians in east asia don't like to be called oriental in western society, in which east asia is considered the orient. of course we don't use the word oriental as much now because in the contemporary global society most of us are well aware there is a huge difference between mongolia vs japan vs thailand, so the broad terms disappear.

my jewish friends tell me i am a gentile or something. i think it means something like not jewish, but it also has an underlying meaning like heathen and that i pray to false gods ad blah blah. now i can't really tell them, hey i'm not a gentile because i don't like it because the fact remains, in their customs and language, i am a gentile. oh well.

i don't understand your second point at all. people are organized in percievable groupings that are similar or different in various ways. physically, heirarchically, geographicaly linguistically. how can we communicate effectively without recognizing or identifying the differences?

btw, i don't think that the non occidental world didn't value money and power. they just hadn't developed the philsophy and technology to be the first one out of the gates.

anyway, i did get my answer, which was that asian americans wanted to drop the oriental from their identity to be be considered less of outsiders in mainstream american society. makes a lot of sense.

Jauani, this brings up an interesting point that I have always pondered. In Revelations it says follow the Jews as they are Gods chosen children. Now my question is ok first if we are all decended of Abraham and summarly Moses after the flood are we all not in essence Jews?

Thus by bloodline affiliation alone does this mean that there were other humans on the planet than "Jews".

It's all Speculative conjecture mind you but an interesting question.

Kinda goes back to my questions as a kid like "Ok Mommie let me get this strait Adam and Eve were the first man and woman on earth? Yes? So um where did Kane and Able get wives?" Back then I was thinking "What were they screwing Monkeys or something?"

Anyway back to the regulary scheduled Posting.

Shadow

Lecktor - It is believed (though not proven) that the indigenous people on the North American Continent were Asiatic, few if any of them came from India.

The name "Indian" was first applied to them by Christopher Columbus, who believed mistakenly that the mainland and islands of America were part of the Indies, in Asia. (No Kidding - really he was that far off)

Interestingly enough Norse expeditions to North America, starting with Bjarni Herjolfsson in 986, are well established historically - before Columbus. The reason that Columbus got credit is because he inaugurated a permanent large-scale two-way commerce between America and Europe.

You might be interested to know that during Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal policy (the Trail of Tears) that the Seminole and Creek joined forces and also welcomed slaves fleeing from the plantations and formed an army and fought the policy and won the first war waged against them (there were 3). Anyhow if you get down this way there is an really good Seminole museum.

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