Keep art elitism OUT of SL

This is post is concerning the big Art & Artists group in SL. I posted it here because while it is a big group, nobody really uses their web site. The A&A group is also the biggest group for art event notifications...so...here goes:

I came to Second Life not really knowing that there was a thriving art community here. When I found out, I was very excited, got caught up in that excitement and built my own art gallery. It has been an amazing time and the feedback I've received from people has been very good.

However, now that I have been in SL for several months, some issues keep popping up which has me sorely disappointed. First off, I don't get how 90% of you out there can charge more than $100L for your art. The concept of limited editions and originals is just plain stupid and it is a cheesy way for you people to try and rob other people of money for a texture on a prim.

A limited edition in the real world is a way of offering a limited number of prints based on the medium by which it was printed on. In Second Life, there is no printed medium. So how can so many of you be charging $1000L + for a texture on a prim and call it limited edition?

The same goes for "originals." Come on people, this is the DIGITAL world. The concept of originals in SL is completely ridiculous. Even if you are a painter, you digitized your work, converted it to a graphic file and that graphic file can be reproduced ad infinitum. So why are you playing on people's ignorant and inane obsession with owning "unique" items? Sure, your RL painting is a one and only item, but that damn texture you're trying to sell for $2000L is not.

On the web, I have never ever come across an artist web site who was trying to pass off reproductions of their work as originals. So why do it here in SL? But then again, I guess if people buy it, why not? I just expected better integrity from artists who might want to try and do something different in Second Life and not repeat the same bullshit patterns of the real world.

I sell my art for $99L. It is copyable/transferable and I took the time to write a script to allow the owner to resize the piece. My art has utility and is cheap. Most art that is sold for stupid high prices don't even come with any functionality. Like I said, nothing more than a texture on a prim. In the very near future, I will be giving away my art for free. I am a true artist. I create for my own personal expression. Whether or not it sells (and it does) is no longer important to me. I just want people to be able to come and (hopefully) enjoy my work and take some if they want it.

SO HOW CAN YOU ALL JUSTIFY YOUR HIGH PRICES?!?!?!?

I am also sick of artists who A. take themselves too seriously and B. claim that they are the best or whatever nonsense they want to spew out about how great they are. Why can't people just post a notice explaining what their work is about? I do not care about you, the artist. I only care about your work. If your work appeals to me, then maybe I might give a shit about you. But, I certainly don't want to hear about whether or not you are a RL artist in SL (trust me, 90% of us are so it anit unique!) or what school you graduated from or what organization or magazine likes to kiss your ass in the real world.

This also goes for the stupid art contests. Do we really need a "best artist of SL 2007" or whatever lame awards that people think they need to give out? I thought art was a personal journey, one of self exploration and self expression. If that is so, why would anyone want their art to be compared to others? I would think that to those who take their art seriously (not themselves), a contest is like a slap in the face at everything they do and think. I do not think most people become artists in order to compete so why do people force us into competition??!?!? Is that how I am to find more recognition in this world? To beat everyone else over the head with my art?

Only in the visual art world do we have this kind of elitism. I hang out with DJs and musicians in SL and NONE of them talk about who is better than who or how great they are. They play their music and people enjoy it (or not). It is so much more laid back than this Art & Artists community where I am pummeled on a daily basis with mostly self-centered notices and contests. I go to gallery after gallery and you're all like lemmings charging outrageous fees for your art. It has gotten to the point where notices have become trivial and I just don't care anymore. Why do I want to go to another gallery where the owner has some crack-pot idea in the back of their head that they are going to get rich in SL through their art? Why do I want to support that greediness? Why would I even want to consort with those kinds of people?

WHERE ARE THE REAL UNDERGROUND ARTISTS?!?!?!?

There...I'm done. We are not allowed to discuss anything with each other in Second Life because of the analness of most people in this group concerning IMs. This web site hardly gets visited so not many people will read this. But I hope I do reach some of you out there who understand where I'm coming from. I was naive and thought SL would be some kind of artists Utopian dream but what I've found is the same old art elitism that pervades the real world so completely and it has been the most disheartening thing about Second Life to date.

PS: I am specifically talking about the kind of visual art that can be hung on a wall like paintings, digital art, or photography. I am not attacking sculpture artists or other people who make other types of art.

Have you seen a Starax sculpture yet?

I realized I should have been more clear and should have specifically pointed out my criticism towards art that is meant to hang on walls like paintings, digital art, and photography.

I PERSONALLY believe that the 3D artists and programmers have MUCH more talent than most real life 2D artists. And yes, I've seen Starax sculptures. I can understand why they are very expensive. I cannot understand how a texture in SL passed off as art is though.

where there is a demand, there will be a supply. I don't think there's that much of a demand, but ...

I wouldn't pay it, and I imagine most won't. I'm shocked at what I see in prices for art that I would never dream setting in my shop. Not to mention my regular shop stuff has better quality than much i've seen.

Hell, maybe I should make a few limited edition 3d renders and some limited edition sculpties, and set it that high ... just for kicks

I think that's the point. Some people are willing to pay for exclusivity. I personally don't see a problem with this. Whether it's a painting, a sculpture or a script, someone had to put the time in to make it. If they decide to get paid for that time, to become a semi or full time professional, there are lots of ways to do it. Going mass market with low prices is one way, saying that if they sell 100 copies @ L$1000 then their time is covered is another.

Just because something could be free doesn't necessarily mean it should be. That sounds more like a consumer's utopia than an artist's one. The artist in me wants enough money so he can pursue his art without worrying about tomorrow's lunch.. The true artist in me wants to be financially free so he can create and give freely to the world.. But until people start saying "oh, you are an artist? here have some money..." then the artists who do give their art freely to the world are likely already rich or have another job to support their hobby.

And from those who do need to make money, if some want to cater to the market willing to pay for exclusivity, I don't see that as elitism. At least no more so those who proudly proclaim that everything they have in Second Life is a freebie. It's a twist on the theme, but no less an elitist club, excluding those of us who were daft enough to pay for something..

The thing is, Second Life is big enough to support all of this. It doesn't have to be this or that.. It can be this and that.

I am of the exact opposite opinion than the OP.

If you look around (outside SL) you will notice that digitial artists make ALOT of money especially when it comes to textures and models for video games and 3d demos etc.

Quality of the work aside, to ask a fraction of a US dollar for hours and hours of painstaking work is ludicrous, you have to really love what you are doing and have a generous feeling towards the community to do this.

I think it is exactly people like the OP who devalue the creative content in SL, which in turn stops SL from being a viable outlet for the economic minded digital artist.

http://www.exchange3d.com/cubecart/3D_catalog_3d%20models%20for%20sale.html

Here is an example of a site that caters to the higher end 3d developers, 5000L equivalent for a texture or model is not uncommon...in fact it is cheap.

$99L to me says the art is probably not worth having, jokey hotel lobby kind of stuff.

I would really like to see content valued properly in SL, it would add credibility to the virtual economy in general and also draw in more talented artists.

-whyroc

$1000L is less that the price of a large latte. If people are willing to pay that to have someone's art that they enjoy hanging in their virtual home I fail to see how anyone's getting ripped off (unless of course they're selling art they didn't actually create themselves). Sure, these things may be just textures on prims, but they represent real work, time, and effort, so why not think of it as supporting the artist? A way of saying "Thank you. I appreciate what you do. Here's a large latte for your troubles."?

Actually, some of the art galleries are selling stuff for 10,000 linden, and more. (these are mainly sculptures) I was referring to that, sorry if I was unclear.

I agree with you that 1k isnt a whole lot of RL money.

actually... neither is 10k, for a limited edition. Erm.

And, as always, if you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. Simple.

How dare you charge $99L for a texture that can be copied, modified, and passed around?
Don't you realize it's just a texture on a prim?
What makes you think your art is worth it? It's just 2d art in a 3d world, and not worth as much as the 3d artists.

That knife cuts both ways. If you feel someone else charges "too much" for art, perhaps you should charge nothing at all. By your own logic, it's valueless.

I, on the other hand, will merrily keep charging $500L for my work. If someone likes my work enough to pay for it and hang it in their SL home, I'm happy. that's what commerce is all about, after all.

everything is worth what people pay for it... if nobody buys it, I guess its worth exactly that.

nothing has intrinsic value... nothing at all, except what people are willing to pay for it. By that standard, value is subjective by its very nature.



500 linden is a normal price I would think for an original piece of wall artwork in SL, nonexclusive. But its hard to really make something totally exclusive anyway in SL (there are ways to circumvent it) ... probably better to do limited edition works and keep exclusive things to work on commission - and make sure you charge appropriately

I sell my work for less $L than you OP...but I still think that prices are up to the individual artists. If so and so can get $3000L for their painting then good for them...and when it comes down to it that really isn't THAT much money.

again, contests....i think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion about them. i think they are fun. my stuff isn't the best art in the whole wide world, and i know this, so i never expect to win anything...but it's another way to attract people to look at art, meet people, and maybe win a little $ to pay tier.

i will admit that my art is kind of an experiment with commercialism. i'm not reaching down into my heart to share with everyone the torment and pain i go through every day...my art isn't very personal i guess. i mean it might be, but i don't know how. i have thought about raising my prices and having only limited editions, but i think that would only jeapordize what i am trying to accomplish. But I have the freedom to do that because I spend maybe 2 hours on each piece, 10 minutes on digital pieces.

i think you might possibly be struggling with something that i struggle with too about second life...and that is the untangibility of it. you can't touch anything, so it doesn't seem real, so it doesn't seem like certain things should have any value. with the way sl is so shaky and laggy and crashy it just seems crazy to sell something that could just disappear into thin air. but for a lot of people it is very real. there are people who enjoy paying high prices for virtual art. and i guess i'm cool with that.

as far as elitism it seems like that is everywhere in any art scene. i don't think about it too much and just do my own thing and talk to lots of different people.

this is a good discussion. i'm not in sl much lately...but feel free to swing by my gallery (just search me, or ornaglyph gallery) any time or add me to your friends.

Is there a difference between a picture by Monet, Googled and uploaded to texture, and an original oil painted in RL by the seller, photographed and uploaded to texture? Because I wouldn't pay a Linden dime for the first.

I think there's also a bit of elitism in the idea that art should be given away freely... in the sense that it implies that only people who can afford to do that should make art.

"SO HOW CAN YOU ALL JUSTIFY YOUR HIGH PRICES?!?!?!?"

All i need to know is what you want....

"WHERE ARE THE REAL UNDERGROUND ARTISTS?!?!?!?"

Really underground.....

100 Lindens for original texture work is very cheap. If it was clothing (which is 2d texturing art after all!) people would spend much more. (In fact people pay 80 Lindens for crappy reseller freebie clothing.) Unique pieces of art should cost thousands - I would consider this "normal".

I more or less agree with you, especially deeply touched by the quoted paragraph shown above. Just a question raised in my head, "How can you know your paintings (or even you) in "Real Life" are not only 2d textures on a prim??" When we are thinking about what "Second Life art" is, we might firstly have to think about what "Second Life" is.

I feel strangely compelled to seek out the OP's Priced To Own Decorative Art Products.

You mention DJ's... do you or other not TIP them for their efforts?

If I patron an artist and lay out 100L or 5000L I am tipping the artist the same as I would tip the DJ, rewarding him/her for the fruits of his labor, right? Altho in this case also receiving something more tangible for my show of appreciation.

As for limited editions and such, it depends alot on how well you protect your art and also depending on the integregity of the patron to not copy it. Such is life in SL.

The problem with sl is when people come here they take their personality with them lol, so if they have pretentions to greatness in real life they will also have them here. As for overcharging maybe they think if they charge more some people will think its better? The most expensive one is the best and all of that,still, I wonder if by limited edition they simply mean they will only sell a few of them so that will make sure very few people will own them?

I agree with you ... and there are true artists out there, I guess some talented people do get caught up in ego and greed ... sl will set them straight eventually when they dont get rich lol.

I think that like anyone selling anything in sl, they need to choose between selling many at a low price or selling just a few at a high price.

Elinah

It's ironic for the OP to be chastising other artists for being elitist based on their lack of conformity to his/her own definition of how things should be. Is that not itself elitist?

Hehehe, i second the post above.

I suggest spending more time enjoying making your own artwork. Whether rl or sl.
Can't say more than that really.

I got this with a product I launched last week, after spending over 4 months working on it.

"How can you justify L$3000 for this?"

I once heard this answer at a store and fell in love with it.

"Because I own it and you don't."

Yowzers. That's no way to make friends...oh wait...you don't care about friends obviously. It seems to me that YOU'RE the elitist artist here.






This goes for the real world too...it's only natural it would be here. Humans like to compete--because we are such smart, unique creatures, 'natural selection' has moved onto our creative side...we like to win. This doesn't have to be malicious in any way.





I'm an actor--this is not true.




You have to find them...just like in the real world. You have to do a little research, a little mingling, and a little contributing...you'll find them, or they'll find you.

It sounds like you are pretty darn bitter. There is no reason to be. If you build it they will come--do not worry about what people are doing or thinking if it stresses you out--instead, create what you love, be true to yourself, and people will take notice.

*sing with me* Cheer up Charlieeeeeeeeeeee....

*banging fists against chest* Me like this post.