From: Cocoanut Koala
Seems to me, though, there are an awful lot of very anti-Christian people running rampant on the off-topic forum telling Cristians how stupid and awful they are.
with a hug, honest and for true. really, i've often thought that my 'avowed atheist' friends talk a helluva lot about 'god', being atheists and all... and, y'all, -all- of ya, i hope this thread is taken in better spirit than simply being perceived as 'attacks' one way or the other, though the initial starting point did have pointedness to it - and, yes, certainly stroked a very broad brush across a whole population with certain beliefs... i hope this isn't taken any more seriously than a good, heated dorm-room bull session.
buuut, i must say from my experience, that christians talk about god a helluva lot more, too (unless they're just 'weekender' christians). i sadly must bring up my fast-food tempwork again (as i'm desperately trying to forget about it right now, lol) - a number of older folks, all from a local church, come to the restaurant evvvvveryday, five to ten in number, sitting there all day, talking church/god/whathaveya. i can perceive them as a sweet-enough bunch, sure - but, i must say, they talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, at that 'above-average' volume level, making sure that they are heard by all around them (and, i must say, rather bone-headed about public/political issues - again, they're simply willing to hear someone announce that they are a 'christian', and suddenly they've written off any sort of 'personal interview/background check' on the person.)
one day as i'm cleaning tables around them, and they were discussing someone's 'problem daughter' (and i had to wonder, what her 'problems' were, and whether they were actually 'problems,' outside of the christian stereotypes of non-followers) - and one throws up her hands and exclaims, no less than three times in a row, 'let go and let god'.
fuuuuuume... it's this kind of stuff that makes me rankle; makes me want to say, 'do you think you actually said something -helpful- there?' it's like seeing 'the faithful' on their knees, at the outskirts of some horrible tragedy, imploring god for a miracle, when i simply want to drag them up off their knees, and tell them 'get to work!!! -help,- god damn it!!!'
weeeell, okay, enough of that... just needed to get that bit of workplace-related b.s. off my chest. lol, plenty more of that where that came from, but it's not on-topic. again, i try to make a certain point, that though these gentle folk aren't really -evil- in and of themselves, but so much of their conversation seems to revolve around self-reinforcing (which reinforces it in their other friends) how -weak- they are, how -weak they are, how -weak- they are... and how 'god is so powerful.'
again, that just adds up to a lot of walmart shoppers, 25% of the radio spectrum comprised of 'srn news' - 'spirit radio network', where pretty much the same minute's worth of overly-spun 'news' is repeated every hour all day, adding up to a whopping amount of - one minute's worth of overly-spun 'news' a day... hell, even jesus used repetition to make a point ('i tell you this', etc etc... repetition -works,- even for the false prophets, BEWARE)...
and a presidential candidate standing up and saying, 'my biggest influence is jesus christ' - and shaving by in -two- rather questionable elections, the first having to be intervened by a supreme court stocked by the past 25 years of his 'founding fathers.'
(well, gee, i guess that -wasn't- quite 'enough of that'... like i said, quite a dorm-room bull session goin' on here.) okay, lemme backtrack some thoughts n' quotes now...
From: Alexin Bismark
Hmmm...I had to think for a bit on the best way to phrase this but in the end it really just comes down to this. Sounds like you're parents would have had "issues" regardless of their religion. But being Christian, that was simply part of the backdrop against which they did the things they did. So to me that becomes more of a problem of individuals than a problem of their religion. Would have been the same if they were Zoroastrians.
lol, -exactly-, but my point being that there's a difference between being a bad person and being a -hypocritically- bad person; there's a difference then regarding how one then tries to 'win over' others; one having taking advantage over the other.
a non-christian / non-zoroastrian (who the hell are -they??- wasn't that the 'sect' into aliens and claiming to have cloned the first human - 'eve' - over in israel/palestine?? simply only has their own history to back them up, and without a one-word self-description like xian/zoroa, they have to fess as much of it up as possible - the media normally does the rest, 'digging in the dirt.'
however, a self-described xian/zoroa, while the media will still dig up the dirt (but, after established public sentiment, will 'dead-hour' the reporting), has established a vital, vital foothold in the consciousness of those who would write off any further information with the crossing of eyes, the shaking of their heads, and the wave of their hands... 'oh, that's all made up,' '-liberal media.-' (oh, those words again... the media is soooooo far from liberal... see the 1976!! film 'network' for a very entertaining, though eventually depressing explanation of the ratings game...)
to re-emphasize/condense, it's the difference between an asshole, and a -hypocritical, advantageous- asshole.
From: Alexin Bismark
That philosophy being one that involves killing the infidel, killing homosexuals, oppressing women, blowing up jews...
lol, -yes,- in that way, islamism has much in common with christianity (at least, back 'round 1600's, in massachusetts.

well, that was years ago, but some of those traits never really die... again, those 'nice folks' might not really -mean- it, but they sure talk about it, or along those lines. and the parallels with paranoid backwoods american militarism - its own special brand of 'new religion' - are striking. ask timothy mcveigh why he did in oklahoma city... (oh wait... we can't. and yet -another- example of old-tymey 'religious-influenced justice' that we just can't get rid of...)
to condense again, 'traditional' means 'we just -talk- about killin' 'em, but we don't actually -mean- it;' 'radical' means those who actually -act- upon this rhetoric. now where did it start? 'thoughts/dreams into action'... gotta work on the thoughts and dreams.
hell, that's what they do already!! and with a few other threads lately discussing the sl influence of dreams (as i've already experienced)... well, the implications become obvious. and, for those wishing to hold onto their predisposed power-ranks, obviously unsettling. (and no, no, this isn't 'paranoid craziness' - just statement of already oft-used strategies. basic psych101/advanced-credit high-school stuff; hardly 'ufo' territory...
i sure hope that any rankled feathers here are soothed a bit by all my rambling here... that was a great amount of my intent, even as i bitch about what i think and feel and have experienced myself... believe it or not, i am actually 'theistic', though the nature of that theism is indefinable, unexpressible. though actually, that may not be -too- hard to believe, given my upbringing...
there is a certain 'meeting of the minds', where nature and the human mind meet, and though many/all can be explained as coincidences, it's difficult for me to discount these experiences as such. these very personal events, for me, are too numerous to mention now (maybe in a completely self-indulgent memoir someday

... but they evoke that feeling of the 'numinous', as i remember from the book by that godawful atheist stoner, carl sagan: 'contact' (actually, his obviously smart and wonderful partner - and fellow stoner anne druyan, is probably responsible for many of these touches in the book...)
sadly, so much of that book went missing in the 'forrest gump' movie-transistion... a wonderful pillow-talk conversation occurs where 'the numinous' is discussed - where scientists find 'god' through science, where mind meets nature and the universe. it's such an intricate 'construct'... that one starts wondering if it was actually 'constructed.'
(SPOILER, not much mentioned in the movie version: i do admit that the book feels a bit of a cop-out at the end, when 'proof is discovered,' because, really, shouldn't an endless sequence of numbers -eventually- reveal 'pattern', inadvertant as it may seem?? it is, again, just another meeting between mind and nature/existence... it's the 'infinite monkeys' hypothesis, which 'by nature', includes all possibilities as viable reality. like discussions regarding quantum mechanics... walk into a wall once a second for the lifetime of the universe, and -one- of those times, you just might walk -through- the wall.)
i 'argue' from the point-of-view as 'the perpetual devil's advocate' (nyak!!, and i do so because, in the formation of government and politics, 'god' left us on our own, and even 'said so,' in the posit that 'god provides no proof of his/her/its existence'. meaning, in my own humble interpretation, god says, 'fuck y'all; i gave you life, now -you- sort it out without my help - and don't -even think- of bringing me into it.'
really, it's just a relief to have like-minded, conversationally-engaged folks with more than fifteen seconds of attention-span to talk to. unlike my family, which freely feels they can interrupt anytime they like... i take as another sad indication that they really don't have the logistical accumen to engage in a thorough discussion of topics... or, to take a more non-humble stance about it, that they see the direction of the side they've held onto for so long, 'for dear life', it seems... they try to change topics quickly. but really, what are they afraid of; what are they -losing?- an improper, unfounded value system?? i feel i'm always ready to let a more valid point add upon/modify/alter my own 'belief system'... why are others so weak, in that way?? i just don't understand...
for example, my father (who has chilled significantly since retirement told me about how a member of his church often discusses specific local judicial elections, and how he -wonders- - WONDERS!! - if this is a possible infraction upon church-and-state separation. i could only reply, 'of -course- it's political...' i wonder if he'll actually speak up about it; i'm not quite sure... but interestingly, my folks, both of 'em, talked a bit about how there's little existence of a local democratic action group. it's really never too late to start wondering, thinking, talking, then acting for options, after all...
okay, okay... now that i've killed a couple hours typing, i really am done. uh, for now. y'all take care. -everyone.-
p.s. boy, okay, one more wrap-up... 'religious intolerance', well, that's what happens when the confronting side does not properly explain itself and its reasoning for doing so... it's a very time-consuming process. to make a blithe point about it, i remember once meeting an attractive girl, intellectually engaging, up to the point where i found out she hated the 'wallace and gromit' films... incomprehensible to me!! i tried to draw out this dislike from her, just as a point-of-conversation, but she did not, or could not, or simply did not want to elucidate upon it. it felt like it became a sore point in an otherwise entertaining round-table of friends discussing 'life, the universe, and everything...' silly and irrelevant, i know, but point being, whatever reason she had, she did not care to discuss. she made her feelings known, and that was that.
now, i'm a high-school 'model united nations' person, with a great desposition for playing diplomat, in most circumstances, but such stonewalling, as minor as it may be, is terribly frustrating. i always wish to leave every little thing open to discussion... i always wish to find out -what's wrong,- when someone has a disagreement, and to then try to comprehend the overall situation (from, lol, a 'godlike' position. but the personal stonewall is where all unmetable oppositions take place, and sadly, not all are willing to let go of their 'control-freak' nature over such matters. it is upon this side, sadly, that i find wars, big or small, accountable.
i hope that those of you asking questions get the answers you seek... and i implore all of you who feel you're simply 'holding your ground' reassess your positions. that is also, if i may make the humble point, 'evil'... you are excasperbating a situation upon the grounds of your own ego. talk. -talk.- TALK about it; explain your side, without fear of weakness. -no one is EVER weak.- if you find your own beliefs or opinions fade or reposition in the face of others, you and all you know are -strengthened- by the process. you -gain- knowledge and strength throughout.
this gets deep, i know, as i was suddenly wondering about 'rape fear' - even if you've never experienced such awfulness; the only thing that is 'rape', is -rape- (sexually). and you can take 'em to court over it... anything else, though, is not. (okay, this was a -real- controversial ending paragraph, so i heartily invite all to give me grief over it...
and that's not to be 'light-hearted' over the concept of it; i understand that cultism is a form of mindrape, and, well, 'i've been there' - like i said, i was raised 'traditionally religious,' though my perception of that definition is probably pretty silly to others, in other religious upbringings...
oh, sigh, i must leave off now. i'm rather exhausted. like i said, take care, y'all.
p.p.s WHAAAA, 'too many smileys!' didja know you can get denied posting a message for thus?? bummer; i'm sooooo smily-prone... i found/replaced all of them, so i hope this message didn't seem abrupt in tone-age at all...