Cindy Sheehan lies and deception!

I think we actually have found some common ground.

Actually, neither of those are true - I debate the politics of the situation when I choose to, as I have in the past in will in the future. This has nothing to do with the politics of the situation, though, for me.

The only "classic" and "predictable" maneuver here is not mine.

the fact that she used Casey's death to gain media attention, is wrong in my book. So unless you can convince me otherwise, we're done here.

You quite often do this, Reitsuki --having the right to do something doesn't make that something right.

You are making a judgement that she should see a block of stone with her son's name on it as being a more important way to grieve than what she is doing.

You have the right to make that judgement I suppose --but it's crass and ill mannered of you.

I would argue that she actually used Bush's lack of a moral center to gain media attention.

No, but because you find it offensive does not make it wrong.

I just don't really care if people are bothered by my opinions or not, I'm going to share them if the topic comes up.



No, I'm not. Carefully re-read my arguement again - that's not what I'm saying at all.



Perhaps. Or perhaps I'm right, and the one who is crass and ill-mannered is not me at all. I suppose that's a judgement we each have to make for ourself.

"Bush Supporter"? Pardon me, this is my government, not football we are discussing here. I am not for or against any particular cadidate, party, or message - what matters to me is /are they competent or not/. No-one who is well-informed and educated can be a "Bush Supporter" - nor most professional politicians these days. I know the oath Casey took in entering the military. It wasn't to support Bush. It wasn't to support the Republican Party. Read it again, and again, and again if you have to. Support and Defend the Constitution of the United States. True Faith and Allegiance.

It is /only/ as a function of military order that he swore to obey the orders of the President of the United States - and /those/ are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which allows enlisted to refuse to obey unlawful orders. Granted, pragmatically, they will immediately be shot by their CO for refusing an order - who may or may not be eventually tried himself for issuing an unlawful order.

Point being: Enlisted/military are not the goon squad of the PotUSA, nor his political party. He is their Commander in Chief, and they owe allegiance to the country and the office, /not the man/.

Who he voted for in an election is /irrelevant/.

What he thought and felt, I believe, can be discovered by reading the book Cindy Sheehan wrote about him - which I have not yet done, but Kendra has, and I rather trust Kendra to not gloss over - but I will be reading the book anyway, because that's what I do - research.

And good arguments are based on both a massive amount of reason and a dash of emotion. I can build the best, most efficient car in the world but people will neither buy nor drive it if its' lacking in aesthetics.

thank you for making part of my point for me. Your reading the book HIS MOTHER WROTE about him, not the one HE wrote. You don't know thats what he thought. You only have her word. No one knows for certain his views on any of this. Now the Bush part was just illustrating that you are slanting the vow towards your own beliefs. I know that vow very well, I did swear it myself, remember?

HIS MOTHER KNOWS.

There. That's not so difficult is it?

doubtful, but then again I'm not naive despite what you want to think.

Ann Coulter's favorite dead horse again?
Thought we had a thread on this already.

Oh wait, that was the 9/11 widows she was bashing on for still speaking out about how the government has done so little since 9/11 and much of what it has done was misdirected.

Sorry... even the right wing steer clear of Ann and her rabid rotweiller approach at punditry. As a 'professional troll' herself, I'd have to conclude that anyone that buys into her style and issues is likewise trolling.

I jus' want to get your position straight, 'k? This isn't an attack.

You disagree with her using her son's death to bring attention to her cause.
You've mentioned that you also disagree with Mr. Bush using 9-11 to further HIS cause, yes?

Do you also disagree with the tragedy of Christopher Reeves' accident bringing attention to spinal injuries and paralized people?

Do you disagree with using the murder of Steven Biko to illustrate racism?

Do you disagree with Coretta Scott King being an activist for civil rights after her husband was murdered?

How about Julia Sweeny using her experiences to gain attention for the fight for Breast Cancer Awareness?

Yul Brenner fighting smoking after dying from lung cancer?

How about Carrol O'Connor getting attention for his fight against drug abuse by using the death of his son?

Do you see what I mean? Are THESE people immoral? And, if not, why not? What makes them different from Mrs. Sheehan?

Doubtful that Cindy knew her own son's mind?


wow.


Let me ask you a question here.

Let's say your son believed that it was okay to shoot heroin and you disagreed.
After your son's needless death of an overdose --you decide to wage a campaign against heroin use. Even though your son totally was wayyyy into being a junkie...Would it be wrong for you to use his death to advance your opinion that all herion use is wrong?

So, does she have to live in poverty and fulfill everybody's expectations as to how her son should be remembered, in order to have a valid point? Does she need to have saved every part of her sons's body and buried him less that three days after his death to convince observant Jews? You don't have to agree with the way she speaks to agree that she has a valid point, and harping on a $1500 rock or that you don't share her rhetorical accent only serves to make it seem as if you disagree with her message, /to your own detriment/.

I honestly don't care if your reasons for wanting peace is because it will bankrupt the nextdoor neighbor with the yippy dog - if you want peace, unilaterally hooray for you! War is evil and should be a last resort. I /do/ care if you're going to start a peeing war over the best or acceptable etiquette in calling for peace.

Her rhetorical accent is meaningless. Stop paying attention to the trees and see the forest.

A Markerless Grave in Vacaville
By Cindy Sheehan

Tuesday 11 April 2006

I am so tired of the Rovian, heartless, and ignorant smear machine attacking me and my family at every turn of my back.

The latest abomination in their scrutiny of my life is the fact that Casey has no "tombstone." As if it were anybody's business but Casey's family. I am sure every last person who has a problem with this has buried a child and they know what we are going through.

I am being smeared because I have a new car and I have "blown" through "$250,000.00" dollars of Casey's insurance money. I am sure that they have ready access to my bank accounts, too. I know I am writing this to compassionate people who would rather focus on an administration who lies, tortures, kills innocent people using conventional and chemical weapons, spies on its citizens without due process, and is treacherous in outing a CIA operative for petty high school-like revenge, thereby endangering her, her family, and her fellow CIA agents. If it weren't for these criminals, my son wouldn't need a tombstone.

I will tell the world why Casey has no marker yet. In the first place, does anyone who is attacking me know how Casey was brought home from Iraq? We picked him up in the United loading dock in a cardboard box and he was off-loaded into a hearse without one honor guard. We had to wait for about a half hour on a curb near the United freight area for his one escort, who rode from Dover Air Force Base in a seat, while Casey was treated as an over-sized piece of luggage. Has anybody held her other sobbing children who are sitting on a curb in San Francisco, waiting for the remains of their big brother to be carried over to the dock by a forklift?

Our so-called, illegitimate president has never attended a funeral, nor can families see the pictures of their loved ones as they are hauled like freight with flags on them from an immoral war zone. WE don't see them because Mama Bush doesn't want to "bother her pretty mind" with the images. America doesn't want to be bothered, either. We had a Casualty Officer who abandoned us when our mortuary refused to pay the cemetery and told us that the "government sent the money to the mortuary, so now it is your problem. You may have to sue the mortuary." Our government discards and dishonors its own.

My Casey wasn't always a soldier. He was a son and brother whose murder has left an aching hole in our lives worse than an amputation. Sooner or later, amputations heal and quit throbbing; this hole never will, or can, heal.

For the first year after Casey was killed, I didn't want to believe it. I didn't want to place a TOMBstone on my son's grave. I didn't want one more marble proof that my son was dead. I couldn't even call where he was buried a "cemetery," I had to call it "Casey's Park." I placed fresh flowers in the cup every week and journaled there almost on a daily basis, and often laid on it and fell asleep and dreamed of my needlessly killed son. Have any of these people who claim that I am pissing on my son's grave even visited him? Have they visited the grave of any soldier needlessly or senselessly killed in George's war of choice for oil and profit? Have they sobbed uncontrollably for my first born who shouldn't even need a gravestone? No, all they want to do is attack a mother who wants to prevent other people from having to bury their own child. They want to perpetuate a war that has already killed many thousands of our fellow human beings for absolutely nothing.

Casey's shell is buried in Vacaville, California, not his spirit. He lives with me and he is constantly with me as I travel the world so other families, Iraqi or American, do not have to bury their children. Casey lives in the hearts of everyone who wants peace and works for peace. He will never truly die.

There are many people whom the Bush regime has killed, either directly or indirectly, by their murderous policies: there are people buried under rubble of Iraq and who were buried under the rubble of the World Trade Towers, and if their families were lucky they could find small parts to bury, before their remains were carted away in the enormous trucks and barges; there are people still unaccounted-for in the swamps of New Orleans and in refrigerated trucks in Mississippi that will never even have graves, let alone gravestones. The Bush regime is good for business, all right; especially the funeral business.

I know these people are searching for proof that I am a horrible person, and it must be evidence that I didn't love Casey if he doesn't have a marker. I know that they can't support a criminal regime that is slipping into fascism, so they have to attack a mom for the "crime" of being broken-hearted and trying to save lives.

What they don't know is that they can't stop me from trying to save lives. No matter what they cook up next.

It is too important. No more needless gravestones. No more wasted lives.

I have no problem with this, because it was HIM doing it. We were able to know HIS beliefs.


Only if you see him as something other than a man.


She was an activist before he was murdered as was he. His death didn't create the attention, it was already there.


Again that is HER doing it, not someone else.


again his words, even postmortom, still his words


If I remember correctly, he was campaigning before Hugh committed suicide.

These were nice tries, but not quite the same as Sheehan and Bush and Isreal and the Spanish American war and ........

And what YOU don't understand is Cindy isn't using her son's death as her message she is using HER LOSS.

Why do you think I keep quoting the name of the book.

"Not One More Mother's Child"

That is the name of her book. It is the core of her message.

The name of her book wasn't

"Casey Agreed With Me" (Though in fact he did disagree with the Iraq Mission and was a Man of God).

Yes it is. Again capitalizing on the dead. I wouldn't want me son's name associated with heroin, so calling attention to it would be counterproductive would it not?

and she is STILL using Casey's death to get attention for herself and her cause. The title of her book even says it. So who doesn't understand?


Torley Linden:
Closed this thread--I don't see any more productive discussion coming out of it.

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