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Quantum physics cartoon

Cannae Brentano
NeoTermite
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 368
08-06-2006 15:26
I thought this was kind of cool.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618&q=quantum
DolphPun Somme
The Pun is its own reword
Join date: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 309
08-06-2006 15:34
This was a good snip, but...
I liked on of the major points to this movie... Emotions are addictive drugs. :P
Well worth a watch.
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
08-06-2006 15:46
Meh, I don't like how he talks about the electron as if it's alive. He oversimplifies it to the point of giving the wrong impression. Electrons aren't aware they are being observed and they certainly don't make decisions.
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Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
08-06-2006 17:28
From: Vares Solvang
Meh, I don't like how he talks about the electron as if it's alive. He oversimplifies it to the point of giving the wrong impression. Electrons aren't aware they are being observed and they certainly don't make decisions.


Thank you, Vares. I got the notion from watching that clip that they were warming up to use electrom mischief to support some nuttball idea.
I find quantum mechanics (at least the limited part I understand) interesting, but I don't buy into the pop culture and new age notions that sometimes uses it to bolster their claims. The idea that since an electron can do weird stuff, therefore so can anything else seems silly to me. At least IMHO. :o
Goapinoa Primeau
Addict
Join date: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 58
08-06-2006 17:55
Meh, I don't like how he talks about the electron as if it's alive. He oversimplifies it to the point of giving the wrong impression. Electrons aren't aware they are being observed and they certainly don't make decisions.

- Did you not even watch the film?????

They behave differently under observation than not, so terms like 'aware of' and 'decide' are the best possible ways we have to describe this.

How else can you describe what they do?
Goapinoa Primeau
Addict
Join date: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 58
08-06-2006 17:58
From: Olympia Rebus
Thank you, Vares. I got the notion from watching that clip that they were warming up to use electrom mischief to support some nuttball idea.
I find quantum mechanics (at least the limited part I understand) interesting, but I don't buy into the pop culture and new age notions that sometimes uses it to bolster their claims. The idea that since an electron can do weird stuff, therefore so can anything else seems silly to me. At least IMHO. :o


Im no physicist but isnt pretty much everything made of electrons (amongst other tiny building blocks)
Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
08-06-2006 18:17
From: Goapinoa Primeau
Im no physicist but isnt pretty much everything made of electrons (amongst other tiny building blocks)


Yes, it's true that electrons are part of what we're made out of. I should have clarified that just because an electron can do crazy stuff that something made out of electrons can do the same things. For example, an electron can also fit into the eye of a needle. I can't. On a larger scale, I'm made of cells that can reproduce by splitting in two. I can't split into two coppies of myself.
Cannae Brentano
NeoTermite
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 368
08-06-2006 18:37
Heck, I just though it was a neat cartoon that illustrated the basics in an easy to understand manner, although the reference that an electron could "know" something weakened the presentation. But again, good professor looks like a SL avatar, so I wouldn't worry about it too much one way or the other.

The parent site itself does seem to have have its own strange little agenda, but that's a different story.
Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
08-06-2006 18:51
From: Cannae Brentano
Heck, I just though it was a neat cartoon that illustrated the basics in an easy to understand manner, although the reference that an electron could "know" something weakened the presentation.
The parent site itself does seem to have have its own strange little agenda, but that's a different story.


In that case I'm in agreement with you.
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
08-06-2006 20:44
From: Goapinoa Primeau
Meh, I don't like how he talks about the electron as if it's alive. He oversimplifies it to the point of giving the wrong impression. Electrons aren't aware they are being observed and they certainly don't make decisions.

- Did you not even watch the film?????

They behave differently under observation than not, so terms like 'aware of' and 'decide' are the best possible ways we have to describe this.

How else can you describe what they do?



I have studied quantum mechanics extensively. Trust me, there are vastly better ways to describe this phenomena than using words like "aware" and "decide"

I realize that sounds obnoxious and elitist, but it's really not meant too. Those words are misleading and in my opinion they are an insult to the listener. It's almost like the people that wrote the script for that little film don't think the "average" person is capable of understanding this subject unless it's “dumbed down” for them

I don't agree with that. I think everyone is capable of understanding quantum mechanics and that they should not water it down so that “they” can understand it
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Norman Desmoulins
Grand Poohba
Join date: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 194
08-06-2006 22:06
From: Vares Solvang
I have studied quantum mechanics extensively. Trust me, there are vastly better ways to describe this phenomena than using words like "aware" and "decide"

I realize that sounds obnoxious and elitist, but it's really not meant too.


So, then why didn't you share what those words are?
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
08-06-2006 22:20
Pffft! you should all know by now, God did it. There is no such thing as electrons or Quantum Mechanics. Just ask Kevn. ;)
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
08-06-2006 22:49
From: Norman Desmoulins
So, then why didn't you share what those words are?


Ok, this is exactally my point. A concept like quantum mechanics can't be explained by just blithely throwing out a few easy words. If you are really interested in understanding this kind of stuff it will take years of study.

But, if you want a video that gives you at least an idea of what it's all about then check out this series:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program_d.html

It's a total of three hours, but it's worth it if you are really interested. It explains it in easy to understand concepts without being insulting to your intelligence.
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Cannae Brentano
NeoTermite
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 368
08-06-2006 23:08
From: Vares Solvang
Ok, this is exactally my point. A concept like quantum mechanics can't be explained by just blithely throwing out a few easy words. If you are really interested in understanding this kind of stuff it will take years of study.

But, if you want a video that gives you at least an idea of what it's all about then check out this series:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program_d.html

It's a total of three hours, but it's worth it if you are really interested. It explains it in easy to understand concepts without being insulting to your intelligence.



Thanks for the link, I'll watch it when I have the time. I disagree that a short little cartoon like this is useless either, most people have absolutely zero exposure to anything approaching quantum mechanics, and if cute little cartoons piques someone's interest in learning more, then its not such a bad thing in my book. Besides, the good professor in the cartoon sort of looks like a SL avatar using a 39 prim electron gun, so that has to count for something.

But I agree that if they got rid of the phrases that implied the electron knew it was being watched and replaced it with something more accurate, it would be an improvement.
Cannae Brentano
NeoTermite
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 368
08-06-2006 23:11
From: Tod69 Talamasca
Pffft! you should all know by now, God did it. There is no such thing as electrons or Quantum Mechanics. Just ask Kevn. ;)


Experiments have shown that a denial of the existance of electrons, protons and neutrons is often found close to an abnormal concentration of morons.
paulie Femto
Into the dark
Join date: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1,098
be wary
08-06-2006 23:35
Doctor Quantum and his electron craziness are related to the new-age film, "What The Bleep Do We Know."

http://www.whatthebleep.com/

The film is a pseudoscientific propaganda piece, produced to support the cult of Ramtha.

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/archives/000083.html

http://skepdic.com/channel.html

I've seen the film several times. It's an entertaining film. I've also attended a conference where many of the film's stars, including Ramtha, spoke live.

When dealing with Ramtha and her "scientists," keep your wits about you and hold on to your wallet. :)
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Alazarin Mondrian
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08-07-2006 02:02

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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-07-2006 02:51
The quantum physics introduction video is excellent. The mention of "decided" and "knows it's being observed" is not misleading. That's exactly the thoughts that scientists will think upon first observation of a phenomenon not previously documented. Those thoughts then push the scientists towards finding out why such a phenomenon was happening exactly because an electron is not supposed to have awareness. The mentions were not an explanation of what is, but he was lecturing from a historical perspective.

That's Heisenberg's in play from the point of view of scientists that hadn't enountered it before.

It's a great way for kids and even some adults to get an initial grasp of what's going on in the subatomic level.

I'm an educator. You cannot teach concepts to people without using imagery and concepts they already have in their heads. You build using what they know.
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Norman Desmoulins
Grand Poohba
Join date: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 194
08-07-2006 04:59
That has been my contention for years... clever people come up with complicated descriptions and methods for things, while true genius comes up with the simplest possible solution.
Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
08-07-2006 06:05
From: Aodhan McDunnough
You cannot teach concepts to people without using imagery and concepts they already have in their heads. You build using what they know.


The problem being that what 90% of the people here 'know' is, its easier to put a new idea through the shreader of their 'truth' than it is to investigate the deeper meaning behind those ideas.

All I will say is, I've implimented many of the concepts behind the 'What The Bleep?' movie through extensive further reading and study. No amount of poo-pooing from the peanut gallery will change the fundamental fact that it works for me.

-Ghoti
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-07-2006 06:25
From: Ghoti Nyak
The problem being that what 90% of the people here 'know' is, its easier to put a new idea through the shreader of their 'truth' than it is to investigate the deeper meaning behind those ideas.

All I will say is, I've implimented many of the concepts behind the 'What The Bleep?' movie through extensive further reading and study. No amount of poo-pooing from the peanut gallery will change the fundamental fact that it works for me.

-Ghoti


*sigh* true. The approaches used are similar to what I've used in my classes, and they work. These are the presentations that awaken the "why" kind of student.
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Copper Surface
Wandering Carroteer
Join date: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 157
08-07-2006 07:35
Ah. The 'why' student.
The 'Eh? That doesn't sound like the whole picture' student.
The 'Oh, what you mean to say is that light seems to be capable of exhibiting both particle-like and wave-like attributes depending on the experiment and observations being made?' student.

My QM lecturer was this strange old man who liked to write 15 minutes of equations on the board while making horrible jokes about porn sites before starting the class, which stretched from 5pm to 8pm on Mondays and Thursdays.

It was hard being one of the only two people who could stay awake till the end. At least if I'd fallen asleep I wouldn't have been able to hear his jokes. Actually, I'm not really sure the other guy didn't fall asleep either - he sat in front of me and he always kept so still I used to wonder if he was able to sleep with his neck muscles locked, like a horse's legs...
Vares Solvang
It's all Relative
Join date: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 2,235
08-07-2006 11:26
The main reason it bothers me is that most people aren't going to bother learning any more about this subject. This little film will be their entire exposure to particle wave duality. So those people are going to be left with the impression that there is some kind of magical thing going on at the subatomic level.

In a nut shell, the video gives the impression that there is some kind of spiritual “woo-woo” stuff going on, while the science shows there isn't.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-07-2006 11:45
From: Vares Solvang

In a nut shell, the video gives the impression that there is some kind of spiritual “woo-woo” stuff going on, while the science shows there isn't.


IMO only because of where it stopped, and not because of the text. I did find the stopping point awkward, but not the text. The tone of the voiceover hints that the discussion is not finished, as if it was meant to be continued.

The style resembled some science film I'd seen when I was younger except that they didn't stop at that point.
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Zepp Zaftig
Unregistered Abuser
Join date: 20 Mar 2005
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08-07-2006 15:47
From: someone

What physical interaction constitutes a measurement?

Until the advent of quantum decoherence theory in the late 20th century, a major conceptual problem of quantum mechanics and especially the Copenhagen interpretation was the lack of a distinctive criterion for a given physical interaction to qualify as "a measurement" and cause a wavefunction to collapse. This best illustrated by the Schrödinger's cat paradox.

Major philosophical and metaphysical questions surround this issue:

* The concept of weak measurements.
* Macroscopic systems (such as chairs or cats) do not exhibit counterintuitive quantum properties, which can only be observed in microscopic particles such as electrons or photons. This invites the question of when a system is "big enough" to behave classically and not quantum mechanically?

Quantum decoherence theory has successfully addressed other questions that previously haunted quantum measurement theory:

* Does a measurement depend on the existence of a self-aware observer?

Answer: No. Coupling an isolated quantum system to another quantum system with many degrees of freedom generically transfers the coherence of the first system into mutual coherence of the two systems. The initially isolated quantum system then appears to "collapse." Interpreting the second system as a measurement apparatus, as in the von Neumann scheme, shows that no consciousness or self-awareness is necessary for collapse of the first system.

* What interactions are strong enough to constitute a measurement?

This question is quantitatively answered by decoherence theory, given a model for the measurement apparatus. The scaling of the measurement effects with the system/apparatus interaction strength usually only weakly depends on the choice of a model for the apparatus, so one can give a generic description of the strength of a measurement induced by a given interaction.

* Does measurement actually determine the state?

The question of whether a measurement actually determines the state, is deeply related to the Wavefunction collapse.

Most versions of the Copenhagen interpretation answer this question with an unqualified "yes".
.
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