unsupported but support me anyway.
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-01-2006 15:18
Hi yeah I have an unsupported laptop pc ((GASP)) I just bought it. Anyway, so... does this new update just completely lock anyone out that doesn't have compatible video cards? Can we get the option to at least play the game even at the risk of being able to fry our pc's or is this possibly some sort of error? You tell me, what should I download to get in game.. or is there some command I can use to bypass this?
Sigh.. wish this would have been clearer before I bought this pc... Its only 4 month-ish old.
Here are my specs:
Processor Intel Pentium M 1731MHz Display Card Intel(R) Mobile 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Family Memory 512MB Operating System Microsoft Windows XP (JAPANESE VERSION) Display Card Memory 128MB Display Driver Version 6.14.10.4332 DirectX Version 9.0c Optical Drive CD/DVD Sound Card Realtek HD Audio output
Is SL -supposed- to lock out uncompatible hardware now? Seriously? Major shock.
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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06-01-2006 22:33
Ameshin, it shouldn't lock you out suddenly--just that there's higher risk of bad problems like lockups, crashes, graphical glitches, etc. for the very reason it's unsupported. But I don't recall integrated Intel graphics chips ever being supported on the System Requirements list.  I would make sure the drivers are up to date first, and give it a try. You never know until you do!
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Zack Quasimodo
Registered User
Join date: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 4
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06-02-2006 01:52
My laptop is unsupported as well, it has an ATI Radeon mobility 7500 chip in it. Game plays fine for the most part, a little lag and crappy FPS, but it works.
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-02-2006 05:25
From: Torley Linden Ameshin, it shouldn't lock you out suddenly-- Yeah.......... thats what I thought. Its hard to explain what happens so I have pictured it.. Basiclly when i open it this is what pops up desplayed from top to bottom. at the very end after I click okay there is a box like the very 1st one that says second life shutting down... but it only flashes up for a split second so I have been able to capture it in a screen shot.  my drivers are updated.... I have updated several times and uninstalled then reinstalled second life. Any ideas? This came at a bad time, right before the update I was in the process of remaking the look of my island then sl shut down for the update so now it has been in ruins for ..well since the last update lol.. ^^;; siiigh
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-02-2006 05:29
From: Torley Linden Ameshin, it shouldn't lock you out suddenly-- Yeah.......... thats what I thought. Its hard to explain what happens so I have pictured it.. Basiclly when i open it this is what pops up desplayed from top to bottom. at the very end after I click okay there is a box like the very 1st one that says second life shutting down... but it only flashes up for a split second so I have been able to capture it in a screen shot.  my drivers are updated.... I have updated several times and uninstalled then reinstalled second life. Any ideas? This came at a bad time, right before the update I was in the process of remaking the look of my island then sl shut down for the update so now it has been in ruins for ..well since the last update lol.. ^^;; siiigh 
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-04-2006 06:00
Hello.. still waiting for a fix a reply information.. anything.. anyone else having the same problem? Any suggestions whatsoever as to what I should do?
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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06-04-2006 06:24
You might try setting Windows to English. Other languages have been a problem in the past.
_____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-04-2006 09:08
Hi Ameshin,
The exact same thing happened to me. I bought a brand new Sony Vaio UX-50 last week in Japan - super tiny, very impressive little pocket-size PC (dare I say UMPC?).
It has the Intel 915 graphics chipset also.
I was very very happy to find it worked pretty well with SL 1.10.0.34 which had just been released at the time. No dialogs warning me about video drivers or cards - it just worked.
Then I downloaded the 1.10.1 update. Now the same thing is happening to me as is happening to you. Exact same dialog boxes, exact same lockout. I am extremely angry over this.
I do not expect to get stellar or even decont performance from the Intel chipsets, but they are clearly enough to log in to SL and perform basic functions, IM friends etc. I have used several laptops with Intel chipsets and have had no crashing or anything - just bad performance, which is to be expected.
But now, to be completely locked out is extremely frustrating. Why? Is this a purposeful move by LL to lockout Intel chipsets so they dont have to deal with users complaining about those chipsets performance?
I'm not sure.
I also have another machine, a Panasonic Let'sNote R3 which has the older Intel 852/855 chipset. This still works fine with SL 1.10.1.
So, is it just something about the Intel 915 chipset? Is it because our OS is Japanese? I doubt it - the Panasonic is Japanese OS too.
I am actually pretty annoyed with LL for their attitude over the Intel Chipsets. Yes they are poor chipsets for gaming, yes they have slow performance, but from my experience (well until the latest SL release) they actually WORK (albeit slowly) for SL. Its not great, but its better than nothing.
More to the point, these Intel Chipsets are unfortunately used in many if not almost all business and consumer laptops these days. LL are locking out an awful lot of people by their "unsupported" stance on these chipsets.
As somebody who travels for work virtually all the time I do not have the luxury of a powerful desktop machine with n ice graphics card when I am away from home. I have to use laptops.
I am lucky I have also a laptop with a decent graphics card - but its big, bulky, and travelling as much as I do I am getting sick of lugging it around. Unfortunately if I want to play SL while travelling I have no choice. I dont want to rely on any Intel chipset machine, since as LL has clearly shown with 1.10.1, we are clearly at their whim when it comes to those chipsets.
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Thili Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,417
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06-04-2006 09:17
Prob sound harsh but
Intel graphics chipset ; are plain bad period, they are very very weak mostly used for office use, having a intel vid card and use it for SL is bound to give you trouble, so many futures they cant do when they try software solutions woila alot of crashes.
See no support needed for a outdated card, those are never ment for serious rendering , doing things that SL do bound to give you problems.
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Crode Figtree
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2006
Posts: 58
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06-04-2006 11:51
There are very few laptops that have a decent video card for games. And they cost lots of $. The higher end video cards can take the same or more power to use than the CPU so battery needs to be bigger and then you cant play for very long. By not allowing SL to launch at all like this eliminates about 90% of the laptops out there. I would report this as a bug, or call their support lines.
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-04-2006 13:38
Hi Figtree,
Yes I was toying with the idea of contacting LL but to be honest I was expecting some canned response like "Intel chipsets not supported - we have said this before", but maybe I'll try anyway.
Thili,
I totally agree with you, Intel graphic chipsets ARE bad for gaming, but the unfortunate truth is that because they are a standard part of the "Centrino" chipset package, they are pretty much standard in most any laptop you can buy today unless you want to go for a really high end model - which means money, size, weight, bad battery life etc etc
Intel chipsets ARE bad but since they account for much of the CURRENT laptops on sale right now, they can hardly be called outdated. In terms of technology - yes, but in terms of the laptop marketplace - no they are not outdated.
- My little sony Vaio was only just released last week - Apple are using the Intel graphics chipsets in their new MacBooks (not the MacBook Pro) - just launched
I can understand LL desire to not support the Intel chipsets, but unfortunately they are what a lot of people are stuck with. My opinion is LL should at least allow SL to RUN on them, at least if you turn all the graphics options way way down or something. Bad performance and maybe some crashes are expected, but outright locking them out is extremely unfair and unnecessary IMO.
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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06-04-2006 15:18
OMG! My Ford Focus can't climb rocks or drive through deep mud! Ford is teh evil! They cheated me! Even though it clearly states the car is designed for on road use only, they cheated me because it can't cross swollen rivers! They must fix this now!
The Intel chipet is not designed to do what SL does, its as simple as that, LL is not locking people out, they are adding features that enhance the experience for those who meet the minimum requirements to play. As for being locked into the Intel chipset, you only needed to shop around a bit more, ATI-9000 chipsets are also quite common and work ok with SL, not great but it is supported. Saying LL is screwing people over because they bought that $399 Dell special and now Sl doesn't work is much like complaining that a subcompact economy car doesn't do what a Humvee can do.
_____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Crode Figtree
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2006
Posts: 58
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06-04-2006 15:28
cmon that just silly comments. Nobody is expecting consistant 60 FPS with Intel GPU but it should still be usable. You can play HL2 and Doom3 with Intel GPU but its not great.
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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06-04-2006 15:38
From: Crode Figtree cmon that just silly comments. Nobody is expecting consistant 60 FPS with Intel GPU but it should still be usable. You can play HL2 and Doom3 with Intel GPU but its not great. Second Life does not work like HL2 or Doom3, so saying that Intel chips can run them but not SL is rather meaningless. SL doesn't support Intel chips because they simply can't and still offer compelling experiences for those who have computers that they do support.
_____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Crode Figtree
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2006
Posts: 58
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06-04-2006 16:57
lol get a clue, SL is far from cutting edge graphics... any graphic card sold today can display anything SL has to offer.
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Kathmandu Gilman
Fearful Symmetry Baby!
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 1,418
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06-04-2006 17:54
Uhhh, no. I have a clue, it's in my back pocket. Wanna see?
Unfortunately, if your graphics card includes any of the following words, it's NOT compatible with Second Life:
* nVidia cards that report as a RIVA TNT or TNT2 * ATI cards that report as RAGE or RAGE PRO * ATI cards that report as RADEON 320M, 340M, 345M, or similar model numbers * Intel * Intel Extreme * 3DFX * RIVA * TNT * SiS * S3 * S3TC * Savage * Twister * Rage * Kyro * MILENNIA * most cards by MATROX
I would also add the ATI 9250, ATI X300, the Nvidia 6200 and Nvidia 7300 in my opinion. SL is a 3D based game that needs basic 3d acceleration and the cards listed are piss-poor to say the least. And if you don't believe me, do a forum search and you will find this subject hammered to death. Also, about a year ago, LL made a kludgle work around to get some Intel Extreme chips to work by turning off a bunch of features if it detected an Intel chipset on load. It's not that the physical hardware isn't able to render, its the fact that they don't adhere to standards that they should. ATI had a great deal of problems a couple of years ago because their OpenGL support was crap, and it still isn't where it should be and is why few recommend ATI for SL. Most all the modern cards that can't handle SL is because they focus on Direct X and OpenGL is an afterthought or is basically screwed in combination with being bottom shelf hardware.
_____________________
It may be true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but it is also true that the squeaky wheel gets replaced at the first critical maintenance opportunity.
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-04-2006 19:58
Ameshin,
Try changing your default input language to English in "Regional and Language Options" control panel. I did that and it worked for me. No lockout dialogs anymore.
Kathmandu, thank you for your useful comment about the languages. In this case, its a bug.
Regarding the larger issue of the Intel Graphics chipsets Kathmandu, you have some very valid points. However all I was trying to say (and perhaps did not say it very well) is that I would like LL to NOT explicitly lockout the unsupported cards. Nobody is denying the Intel cards are BAD BAD BAD. But in my experience, they WORK for SL, albeit poorly. So I'm not going to go crying to LL if I get bad framerates, graphical glitches, or crashes with them. (Actually in my experience with the Intel cards, the only negative I have experienced is bad performance). I would just like to be NOT explicitly locked out.
And that does NOT seem to be the case this time. I may have jumped the gun in assuming that possibility, for which I apologise. It looks like some language/config related bug in this case.
If there is anyone to be annoyed with here, it is either Intel for making such non-standard crappy cards, or the PC manufacturers for using this chipset so (currently) ubiquitously.
Having said that I am sure there will come a day where SL graphics DO advance beyond the point where such insufficient cards no longer cut it even on lowest settings. But until that day, I'd like to at least keep having the option of using my underpowered graphics chipset.
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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exactly..
06-05-2006 05:36
I don't care about the crashes and stuff I was never planning to use all the features.. most of them I have never used. I have never had huge problems with sl crashing and such.. but thats just because I'm not being stupid with the features. In any case yes... locking out is apparently an error.. has anyone else experienced this happened?
Turning my OS to english is a bit.. hm... wouldn't that aquire me to BUY a new OS?? And it still might work....... not to mention my fiancee wouldn't be able to understand an english OS.
What to do what to do.......
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-05-2006 06:21
Hi Ameshin,
You dont need to switch your whole OS to English - just certain options. All of your menus, diaolog boxes etc will still be in Japanese. However there may be a few odd programs which will show gibberish characters instead of Japanese after you make the changes. This should be very rare though.
Here's how to do it: (Apologies I may have some of the English dialog box text wrong - I only have Japanese WinXP in front of me for reference at the moment)
- Go to "Control Panels" - Open "Regional and Language Options / ???????????" - Choose the "Languages / ??" Tab. - In the "Text Services Language Input / ?????????????" pane, click the "Details/Advanced / ??" button. **POINT A** - In the box which comes up, look at the field titled "Default Input Language / ?????" - If you have a Japanese keyboard, choose "English (North America or US) - Japanese / ??????- ???" - If you have an English keyboard (US for example), choose "English (North America or US) - US / ?????? - US" NOTE: (If the English options is not there, you will have to add them - please jump to the bottom to see how)
Assuming you were able to choose English, click OK to get out of all the dialog boxes, and just for good measure reboot.
When your system comes back everything should look the same (still Japanese) but, if you have the language bar or taskbar icon enabled, you will see your default input language is now English (EN) instead of Japanese (JP). You will default to inputting English when you type anything. Beware that if you chose the wrong type of keyboard (US vs Japanese) for the keyboard type you actually have, you may find some keymappings changed - for example @ " etc..) Its a bit of a pain if you mainly type Japanese, but you can still enable Japanese input. If you press "Alt + Left Shift" it should switch between the installed input languages. If you only have English and Japanese installed, this will switch between the 2. When in Japanese mode everything will work the normal way - if you have Japanese keyboard, the "??" keys etc should all work when in JP input mode.
For your fiancee it might be a bit annoying since she will have to remember to hit "Alt + Left Shift" to switch Japanese input quite a lot!
NOW, I mentioned earlier that if the English options were not available, you have to add them.
- In the dialog box you are at, "??????????????" look down at the pane "Installed Services / ??????????????" - In there you should see a bunch of entries under "JP" for Japanese. - Click the "Add / ??" Button on the right. - In the Dialog box which comes up, in the "Input Language / ????" field, choose "English (US) / ??????" - In the "Keyboard Layout Input System / ????????????????" field, choose the type of keyboard you have. Should have option of US, ??? etc.... - Click OK to get out of this dialog box, and return to **POINT A** above and proceed from there.
I hope this works for you!
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-05-2006 06:23
Oh crap I just noticed all the Japanese I typed didnt show up in the post - its all garbled. Let me know if it doesnt show up for you and I can send you the instructions as a text file.
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Thili Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,417
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06-05-2006 08:12
ok not to sure about this, but if theres a .ini file for SL somewhere where you can disable Rendering types before starting SL client? Prob end up disabling everything and you could prob use SL as a chat prog with nothing/little rendered  eh cant say i found a file like that in SL folder yet tho, (know some debug things id really wish would stay on next time i crash/log)
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Lee Linden
llBuildMonkey();
Join date: 31 Dec 1969
Posts: 743
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06-05-2006 10:01
The GDI Generic message specifically means this:
Second Life: "Hey, Windows, we're going to do some 3D today, what hardware can we use to draw 3D graphics?" Windows: "Um... nothing. Nothing at all."
Why would Windows say there's no 3D hardware? There's a few possibilities: 1) The hardware actually isn't capable of drawing 3D more complex than that little maze screensaver that comes with Windows. 2) The hardware doesn't know how to draw 3D the way Second Life wants. This is what happens to Intel users; we use OpenGL, and Intel provides near-zero support for OpenGL. 3) Windows lacks the 3D drivers. It knows how to use the hardware to draw windows and webpages, but doesn't have the instructions for 3D. This is what happens to people with supported cards that haven't gotten new drivers. 4) Every so often (but usually only with Windows 2003 users), Windows has been specifically told NOT to use the 3D features of the hardware.
No matter the cause, we're not alone; other OpenGL applications will have the same problem. (Most 3D programs are not OpenGL; this is why you may be able to run some games, but not Second Life.)
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Shirokuro Sojourner
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
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06-05-2006 11:29
Hi Lee,
Thanks for the info. What you say makes a lot of sense but I have 2 questions:
- Why does the dialog box go away when I change my default input language from Japanese to English? In other words if this is supposed to be a normal SL check, why does it seem to vary with different language settings on the PC?
- Why does this only seem to happen (at least to me) with some versions of SL, and not others, and in this case particularly with 1.10.1 (as I said it didnt happen with 1.10.0.34) ?
(I actually remember getting the GDI dialog a long time ago with a previous SL version - at least a year ago - but I didnt get the subsequent lockout dialog and was actually still able to use SL).
Anyway, the WA of changing input language is working for me now, and thankfully I have another machine available at the moment anyway.
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-05-2006 14:27
From: Shirokuro Sojourner Hi Ameshin,
The exact same thing happened to me. I bought a brand new Sony Vaio UX-50 last week in Japan - super tiny, very impressive little pocket-size PC (dare I say UMPC?).
It has the Intel 915 graphics chipset also.
I was very very happy to find it worked pretty well with SL 1.10.0.34 which had just been released at the time. No dialogs warning me about video drivers or cards - it just worked.
Then I downloaded the 1.10.1 update. Now the same thing is happening to me as is happening to you. Exact same dialog boxes, exact same lockout. I am extremely angry over this.
I do not expect to get stellar or even decont performance from the Intel chipsets, but they are clearly enough to log in to SL and perform basic functions, IM friends etc. I have used several laptops with Intel chipsets and have had no crashing or anything - just bad performance, which is to be expected.
But now, to be completely locked out is extremely frustrating. Why? Is this a purposeful move by LL to lockout Intel chipsets so they dont have to deal with users complaining about those chipsets performance?
I'm not sure.
I also have another machine, a Panasonic Let'sNote R3 which has the older Intel 852/855 chipset. This still works fine with SL 1.10.1.
So, is it just something about the Intel 915 chipset? Is it because our OS is Japanese? I doubt it - the Panasonic is Japanese OS too.
I am actually pretty annoyed with LL for their attitude over the Intel Chipsets. Yes they are poor chipsets for gaming, yes they have slow performance, but from my experience (well until the latest SL release) they actually WORK (albeit slowly) for SL. Its not great, but its better than nothing.
More to the point, these Intel Chipsets are unfortunately used in many if not almost all business and consumer laptops these days. LL are locking out an awful lot of people by their "unsupported" stance on these chipsets.
As somebody who travels for work virtually all the time I do not have the luxury of a powerful desktop machine with n ice graphics card when I am away from home. I have to use laptops.
I am lucky I have also a laptop with a decent graphics card - but its big, bulky, and travelling as much as I do I am getting sick of lugging it around. Unfortunately if I want to play SL while travelling I have no choice. I dont want to rely on any Intel chipset machine, since as LL has clearly shown with 1.10.1, we are clearly at their whim when it comes to those chipsets. Well I'm happy SL isn't just out to get me... so your Japanese OS machine with the same type of graphics card locks you out in the same manner as me... hm... well I am totally stummped and do not have another computer right now... (my old one blew up) um so.. basiclly it looks like I have to buy a NEW NEW computer?
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Ameshin Yossarian
http://www.morbidia.com
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
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06-05-2006 14:36
From: Shirokuro Sojourner Oh crap I just noticed all the Japanese I typed didnt show up in the post - its all garbled. Let me know if it doesnt show up for you and I can send you the instructions as a text file. ahaha.. yeah it was all ???'s if its not a problem, I dont want to post my email in the forums but its on morbidia.com the only email listed on the 1st page lol could you send me the info via email? it would really help thanks so much ^^ just for the note my fiancee is a man and I am a woman LOL
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