A fee for being at a concert in SL?

This is a step in the right direction. Finally a musician in SL that acknowledges that he is taking money from a venue owner and the venue owner does not make any money at all from the Live event. This works toward building a business relationship with the virtual venue. Much support.

I'm somewhat confused by later posts about greedy venue owners charging fees, or the idea of it. When the idea was from a musician charging a fee to be at his concerts.


Unless they removed it, there is an option of "buy access" to land. So, how is there no way to "enforce" this? Charge 500L, person buys access. 'Course that works better if the music person owns the land if you do not want complications over money.


You demanding them to play for you for free, are you?


Maybe the scene changed since I last looked, but I rarely see "tons" of shops when I go to music events.

Lands cheap right now. Buy your own land. Set up your own venue. Well, there you go. Took out the "greedy venue owner" from the equation.


Most venues do not make money, and are money sinks.

--
Have no idea what the scam comments are about.

Ruby.. if you had read my original post.. it is not about whether *I* can afford it.. but about noobs and others in SL that DO NOT have lots of Lindens to throw around.. (today's noobs are the fan base of tomorrow)

This idea will preclude new people in SL still to discover the music scene and/or artists they have yet to see. Large fan bases will dwindle (cos how many could really afford 500L several times a week) but will not be replaced with new fans..

My quote about taking several hours to earn 500L is true.. and if it takes me that long.. how long for others... IF they can get work at all (as we all know there are few jobs in SL that pay more than a few Lindens an hour)..

I still think that it would work better if the musicians that feel this way donate 50% of their tips to the venue as people are more likely (it seems) to tip the musician than the venue..

I also misunderstood the original concept.. I thought the entire cover charge was going to the venue, lol..

However the idea of paying 500L upfront is still wrong IMO.. I know people who always tip 500 - 1K.. but will not go to a show with a 500 cover charge.. why? because the tip should be voluntary. What happens on a day when SL is really bad.. the stream is messing up and you can barely hear? Will the cover charge be refunded?

and please Ruby.. get your facts right.. I earned most of the SM shoes by working there many hours a day.. I bought a couple sets.. and yes and the RFL charity event I uploaded many dollars and spent a lot of money for charity *FOR CHARITY* get it?

Name one aspect of this that makes it a scam.

You mention profit: profit does not equal scam. Please do better if you want anyone to take you seriously.

For something to be a scam, it has to involve deceit. Where is the deceit here?

You may not like this, that's your perogative. I've seen MT advertised many times, and have been meaning to catch one of his shows -- I'm a musician myself -- but if he's charging I probably won't. I prefer to play or see shows in RL anyway, so no big deal.

But not liking it does not make it a scam. Scams are illegal: they're fraud. You're glibly making a serious allegation. Some might consider it libel. So, either back it up or back off.

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word "scam", and don't realize that you've made a mistake for which I believe you owe an apology.

Ok so let me see if I understand your mentality here. It's a reach but I might be able to do it. Because he has the ability to "maybe" make more money since he is not charging the venues his 15k-25kL per show. He has to rely on the attendance of the audience to make back that money which would be (hang on a moment, I am a simple man let me remove my shoes to help count my toes so my figure is correct) he would need 50 people to pay the cover to make back the original 25kL he chargers for 1.5 hours of show. Now take that 50@500L which my fingers and toes told me was 25Kl and minus the 20% given back to the venue. hmmm less money huh. All that equals scam? Yes, there will be gigs where more than 50 residents show up. But I have also seen gigs of his where 20-30 residents show up. So he would lose money....


Sure if the venue advertises and gets more people there the potential of making money for the performers is grand. BUT in the same instance it makes the venues that much MORE money.

As for running out of venues to play at. I don’t' see that happening since he is having 3-5 concerts a week.

Seriously, how can NOT charging venues and charging the fans 1.75USD to listen to a performer a scam? This is based around helping the venues. If I had the ability to help out people in SL stay afloat and make some extra cash doing so, why not?? It is called Business. Consultants do it all the time, they scammers too? People pay for their service and the ones hiring the consultant gain from it?

There still be free live music in SL. New artists coming in, only tips only gigs until hopefully their following and reputation improves. Since you are not a follower of this idea, please feel free to continue going to the free concerts, and not tipping the artists. But think about that the next time you pay for a skin, clothing, house, any item in this virtual world. You are giving money to "Scammers" as you call it, because you are paying for their service.

There will still be plenty of free shows, just as there are in RL. Perhaps not from the most popular artists. I agree that if all or most of an artists shows have covers, they risk a dwindling fan base.

This kind of thing is common; though I don't know what percentage is typical.

You're entitled to your opinion, but players are entitled to charge cover if they want. I'm just quibbling with your words here: it isn't "wrong", but you're perfectly within your rights to dislike this model and refuse to participate.

Good point; that's an issue, though one that can probably be worked out. But it'll keep some folks from attending, just as the cover charge itself will keep lots of people from attending. It's still the right of the performer and venue to try this model.

Any new business model in SL as in RL is bound to cause some controversy-and that is what this musician is actually proposing; a new business model. Not a scam or a way of being deceitful to his existing or new fans, but a viable way of securing the future of music within SL for years to come. The majority of music venues within SL struggle to survive with many closing their doors on a daily basis or at the very least, operating at a loss. It is not cheap to run a venue and most owners use their own personal cash just to keep the spirit of music alive and to contribute something to the SL community. This is relatively unique to the music industry in SL-I bet if you asked other business owners in SL if they were prepared to exist while operating at a loss that would LOL long and hard in local chat at you.

Music in SL is the same as any other service-most of us are consumers in some way whether it is virtual homes, clothes or pixilated plants-we all make the choice to purchase things to enhance our virtual world. Why should our entertainment be any different? It is a disservice to the many talented musicians who play the stages of our virtual world every day and the struggling venue owners not to consider their skills in the same way.

Personally, I feel this is a brave step by a musician who has thought long and hard about making this choice and I know for a fact he consulted with his group members, the wider SL music community at large and a variety of venue owners before making this decision.
To attend shows and not pay in some way for your time there is tantamount to theft-you are benefitting from the skills, talent and time of others.

This model will ensure venue owners get a guaranteed percentage without having to fork out upfront costs to the actual artist. If the idea of paying as opposed to tipping is so uncomfortable, then vote with your feet and go and see some other act –just have a conscious about it and remember to tip the venue just as heavily as you do the actual artist.

1. There will still be many free live shows available to new residents by new artists and by artists who do not wish to charge for their show. As for the larger more popular artists, I guarantee you will still see them performing the occassional free show whether at their own venue, another venue or for charity events.

2. 50% of tips to the venue makes absolutely no sense. The artists charges $10k to the venue, they get $8k in tips and then they are supposed to give $4k back? The venue is still losing money. Or if they don't charge the venue and do tips only and they make $8k in tips and then they themselves only make $4k? That's hardly a solution either.

3. This is not "wrong". The current model is the equivalent to a mall opening up, the owner paying clothing designers and content creators to put their shop on their sim, the content creators giving their items out for free and everyone putting out donation jars in hopes that they make more money. Good luck finding a sim owner or clothing designer willing to do this. Why should we expect a musical artist to devalue themselves in the same way or a venue owner go out on a limb and financially support the works of others? Paying an artist should NOT be "voluntary", they provide a service much as a designer provides a good and they deserve to be recognized , validated and have their value confirmed in the same way as anyone else who provides services or goods.

4. The point was that YOU inparticular CAN afford to pay $500L per show of any artist you wish to see and you made the statement that you could NOT do so. Regardless of whether or not your $200,000L went to charity or to make a designer's bank account grow is besides the point. The point is that you can afford to give that money to charity or anything else, so your argument about you not being able to afford the $1.75 to see a live artist is moot. And I think you know that I know ALL about charity, thank you very much, so yes, I "get it".

The big picture here is that no, musicians are not under any obligation to bring entertainment to the SL masses with a smile on their face without being paid to do what they do. Just as it's an unreasonable expectation that the venues pay thousands of $L while the rest of us float in and out of shows without any requirement to pay. The voluntary system of tipping is all good and great, IF IT ACTUALLY WORKED. My own musician that I manage recently played a show, received his payment from the venue, plus a decent amount of tips, and in that hour, the venue received $350L in tips from the music goers and he came up very short and took a big loss. It's simply not fair and something needs to be done to try to fix this. The SL community and their sense of entitlement to free things is completely out of hand. SL works like RL in so many ways, if not MOST ways. It's free enterprise and this particular business model makes SENSE. There is some resistance to it because people still feel they are owed free entertainment, but how does that make any sense that everything else in SL costs money, except for this? And yes there are still parts of it that needs to be fine tuned, which is why he hasn't fully launched the idea yet, he's simply put it out there for ideas and for feedback. If a show has stream issues and it's the fault of the musician or venue's stream or the land the show is on and no one can hear and they have to leave because of it, then I don't see why they wouldn't get a refund. Just like when a RL ball game gets rained out or a singer loses her voice and has to cancel her show. There are always going to be "what ifs" and "how abouts", and that's why he presented the idea the way he did, to find out what the questions were, to troubleshoot before launching, to address concerns and get feedback before taking the next step. I could type all day long about the benefits and logic of this, but really, the logic is self-evident. If people don't see it then they don't see it and they can continue to go to the free shows of other performers. And if that means losing a few of his fans or slowing the process of gaining new fans, then that is HIS risk to take, and it may be well worth it to at least keep music venues alive in SL so that these artists actually have a place to play.

I haven't read the whole thread admittedly - but will do over the next few days, however I just wanted to add my own viewpoint to this fascinating subject.

In SL - I camp, and I work for tips only, and when I have the Linden Dollars I willingly give them all away in tips to venues, artists, money trees, and helping newbies. This is not always possible if I don't have the Lindens, and I do actually feel really, really guilty about not being in a position to tip an artist or a venue. I have actually on occassion, sometimes stayed away because of that. I simply can't afford to buy additional Linden Dollars, using my RL revenue, and this will be the same for the immediate future. All the Lindens I make in SL, stay in SL.

I have a friend with a brilliant SIM that, like everywhere, struggles to cover costs, despite the fab facilities on offer there, so I can see all sides of the coin. Now, if an artist appears at no cost, at a venue, bringing along their fanbase who all have a great time, and this generates a fee by ticketting, which then means the venue is garenteed a percentage of that revenue (that they might not have got through tipping alone), plus the venue gains the potential of future ongoing visiting traffic, which might encourage tennents, and/or businesses, all generating custom and business - well, its a win-win situation, in my mind.

In RL, however, I am currently unemployed since Feb, very very ill, and am awaiting surgery to which I must contribute a vast sum of cash. To afford even a few extra pence on a 'luxury' right now, is an impossibility for me. Ticketing events would mean I would have to start buying Lindens in order to pay for the tickets. That being said, when I am back in employment, and am paying off my bills, and am starting to gather funds again - hopefully next year - then, I will happily pay to see a top class performer. Afterall, why should people in SL expect something for nothing? Why is an object or apparel designer/creator/seller any more entitled to earning potential RL money for their skills?

I'm not sure - but I wonder if it is not so much an issue of "should an artist (or a club, for that matter) charge ticket fees?", but the perceived value of a single Linden Dollar making 500Ls seem a high price to pay for some. It is all to easy, when running about in-world, to forget how much those Linden Dollars really are worth, in real money. The other issue is that, this perceived amount is also being put in comparison to other obtainable wages earn-able in SL. It is a weird situation we're all in. How much, as an artist, would you actually think is reasonable to charge?, whilst bearing in mind 1L doesn't actually mean the equivelent to 1$USD.

I personally don't think 500Ls is unreasonable for a quality performance, however, for me, it would mean that I wouldn't be able to attend as many of the gigs as I might normally have done. I would simply go as often as that month's RL budget permitted, and in the interim, make do with listening to CD's (if the artist has them) and enjoying the hopefully amusing, group chatter to keep up with any exciting news....ummm - thats pretty much what 'fans' do with their real life favourite artists afterall, isn't it?

Personally, I think - yes - go ahead - try the fees - see what happens - it either works or it doesn't. And maybe alongside the full ticketed concerts, once every 6weeks or so, do a short 'special concert' using the old tips system, to enable old-timers who can't afford the full 500Ls to see their favourite artist, or the newcomers to decide whether they want to hear more. Hopefully that way, at that event, the die-hard regulars would have the heart to tip generously, and newbies and others would tip as much as they could at those short special events.

Why wait six weeks?

I will in fact reserve my place, Mankind's Sweet Spot, for free shows at least once a week as I have been for a long time (RL permitting of course). It's because of people, no.... FRIENDS, like you Jinny that I am where I am and I appreciate you more than you know. So stick around and come out when you can. Tipping is of course welcome but not mandatory. The support of my music - and yes I always play LIVE - is truly welcome. Just come and enjoy the rest of the friends and family and the wonderful vibe they always have.

I am very confident that this new model will help the venues, so please continue your support. To everyone else I will continue to thank you for your opinions. Initially that's all I want. After all it is the community that makes up a community.

As I am seeing mostly positive opinions about my idea here - which I really appreciate - those with less optimism about its success also have very valid opinions and I do consider those equally as all others... so again I thank you for taking the time to offer all of yours.

Thanks again Jinny.

M

OK here is an alternative suggestion that would not force people to have to pay..

what they could do.. was the performer charge the venue say a reasonable 5K instead of the usual 20K, then give 50% of tips to venue.. MK claimed average tip is 500.. so - 30 there, tips = 15K.. he gets the 5K + 7.5K ( plenty.. more than fair for 1 - 1.5 hours) and venue makes 2.5K profit for every hour they have a singer there.. People would still be free to tip the venue on top of their tip to performer..

Well, I really don't know what to say here as my experience as a musician and performer in SL [and RL] borders on the surreal. If someone can can keep an audience while charging admission to their shows then good luck to them. It's not an option for me as I neither get bookings nor an appreciable audience at my own venue. Those who do turn up tend to leave within a minute without listening [I do check the stream statistics] or tipping.

When I started out in SL, I decided to charge L$2000 + tips for my show which I felt was being absurdly cheap given the amount of work I put into my material and performances. It's entirely original material performed live [OK.... I do use Cuabse for backing tracks but that's only down to a shortage of limbs on my part] and was told in no short order that I was being greedy / had expectations way above my station / totally unrealistic / a chancer fake / yada-yada and should be grateful to only do tips / open-mic / blah-blah... you get the picture. That from people who spend more in a minute on bling shoes and cyberhooker escorts. Hello... I'm over 50 and was performing, writing and recording before most of this lot were conceived let alone even knew what music is.

Sure I could get cynical and decide on a policy of only 'spinning albums' unless some payment comes my way but sadly as a musician I have to keep playing / practising / rehearsing so non-playing is not even an option for me. So I keep on keeping on while the debates rise and fall and the *cough* good people *cough* of SL throw their money and spammy chat gestures at acts that are trite, unimaginitive and drearily predictable. But, hey, if that's what pops their cork, who am I to argue with them? Cue '5 million flies can't be wrong, etc., etc...'

Do I sound jaded and cynical? You ain't heard the half of it.

I don't know about the particular person proposing this...maybe, like Eli says, he's a scammer.

But frankly, I think the idea has merit. There are performers of every ability level in SL, and the good ones are TERRIBLY under-compensated.

I think that paying $L500 for a one hour live show is dirt cheap...especially considering that you would pay twice that for an hour of an escort's time.

One thing though...I would want to hear a sample of the artist's work before feeling good about buying a ticket.

Where's the scam?

It would be a scam if you paid to go, and the artist didn't show, and you couldn't get a refund.

I am a big music fan, going to a lot of concert in rl and spending lots of money there.
Why do i pay for a ticket in RL, because it is the only way to get in. Am i the only one there? No! Most of the time the tickets are sold out and there are companies making big money selling rl tickets for more that they costed originaly.

In rl the price of tickets depends on the band, U2 asked 130 euro for a ticket and an unknownband asking 20 euro. And U2 is sold out and the unknown band not. In rl there is also free music. It up to me if i am willing to pay 130 euro for a ticket and if i can afford it. I realise some people cant afford a ticket in rl but that is just the way it is.

Now to SL, I am prepared to pay in sl for music! It feels only normal to me. I think so far in SL is it normal not to pay for music. But realy think about it, why are most of us prepaired to pay to hire land, buy skins ect. and not willing to pay for music?

I have to admit paying will be hard for newbees and hard for new artists to get fans.
Also for already know artists it is important to get new fans.
But i dont see why all the 3 ways of getting sl music can exist even for the same artist.
1. Free gigs on regulair base for people who cant or wont pay for sl gigs
2. Venue who dont mind paying the artist (BLESS THEM!!!) , just paying the artist
3. Pay for a ticket, and support the venue and the artist.

I can imagion that one artist does a few payed gigs a week and 1 for free for the newbees. That way everyone has a change to listen to all artists. And maybe a nice thing is that the payed gigs wont be that crowdy so i wont crash 3x a gig.


PS i know my English is full of mistakes, but i hope you got the message.

Roos

There are places on SL where artists can put there mp3's and you can hear the examples.

And for Mankind Tracer, if you go to his place on SL , the Sweet Spot his music is streaming there.

There are places in SL where artist can put there mp3's and everyone can listen to it.

Mankind Tracer has his own place on SL , the Sweet Spot and his music is streaming there all the time. So you get a good impression of what he does.

If people could make a bit of Linden cash by hosting concerts a new type of "gaming" would occur in SL between venues The unscrupulous would start lag wars just to turn a 10L$ profit. Ohhh wait, that already happens. NM

Many of the live performers in SL can easily charge $500L a head and still fill venues. Most of their regular fans are willing to pay a buck and a half $US for an hour of entertainment. There are also many venues that will hire the musicians and put on free shows. My friends chipped in to hire a live performer in SL for a private show. We saw it as paying for a service (our entertainment for 90 minutes.) The venue was private land, no shops and no renters. Once all of the invited people were in the region the musician group notified that a small show was being played and the SIM was limited to 30 people. We had very little lag and the performer made just as much (maybe more) in tips that show as he usually does.

I think that live music is here to stay in SL whether or not its free for the listeners. If an entertainer thinks that they're in need of new fans I'm sure that the entertainer will find a way to put on a free show for exposure.

Wouldn't it be good to have just one tip jar during a concert? The artist and venue owner could agree on a percentage of the income that night, for instance 20% for the venue and 80 for the artist. So that would mean the artist would not have to ask for a specific amount of Linden Dollars anymore and the venue owner would ALWAYS make a profit. Mind you, the suggested percentages are just a hypothesis to get those minds working. Basically it is the crux of what MK is suggesting. At the end of any concert, the tip jar can be emptied on that virtual table and everybody receives his/her cut. Fair enough? No entrance fee asked. The only problem I see is that if visitors are too lame to tip, the tip jar will not be filled with some decent amount.... but still, both the venue and the artist would profit. An other thing, technically more difficult to do, would be some kind of a program that demands a minimum pay (entrance fee again, I know!) and if the minimum amount is not payed with 15 minutes or so, the stream is cut to the avatars that did not pay the minimum amount...... Last concert I visited, a remarkable 107 people showed up! If they would pay 250 LD each, that would mean 25.000 + in revenue. If only half the number of visitors would show up, it would still mean 12.500 in revenue. Change the respective factors in this piece of math and things should get pretty clear. I personally do not visit EVERY concert, same MO in real life. Also, in real life, venue owners make a nice profit coming from selling drinks and other goodies on the side. SL is a different story...... I never tasted a digital beer, did you?

Maybe it would be nice to think about some kind of an added bonus for paying visitors. How about a serious discount when buying merchandise, like CD's or other fan articles? Since most, I repeat MOST, people tip anyways, they would be stimulated to do so even more when they are given that little bonus in appreciation.....?

I am for this kind of business model, since without the venue owners, we would not be in SL at all. It is their fantasy and creativity that keeps us coming back for more. In SL one is free to do as one pleases, but imho things work better when we create a WIN-WIN situation.

Think of the other possibility! How about the artist only playing on a sim of his own? That would start to annoy pretty damn soon, believe me.

I hope you people out there are encouraged to think about a mutually beneficial business model more than just to oppose to this or any proposal. Try and come up with something worth while for all of us? It would be more profitable than just saying YES I like it or NO, I do not.........

Enjoy your favorite artists and keep making SL into that place we all wanna escape to after a dull week of work.....

I'd love to be able to charge an admission fee for my shows. Technically I can already using the land access tools. But realistically people will simply vote with their feet and wallets and just go to a free show elsewhere irregardless of the quality of content on offer. I'm 100% certain this dilemma faces every music performer in SL.

I have no magic answer. Looking at 'real-world' gigs alot of the income stream is generated from selling accessories, souvenirs and albums to the audience. So maybe a similar plan might work in SL. Not sayin' but it might be worth a try. At least that way you don't end up looking like Canute attempting to stop the tide.

Also as both a performer and audience member one thing I really can't stand are the endless calls to 'give Linden lurve', 'tip the musician' and 'tip the venue'. I know we've all got our running costs and it's meant well but that type of fairground barking really does detract from the experience.

There is no need to 'divvy up' at the end.. tip jars can easily be scripted so 50% goes to the performer and 50% to venue.. or whatever percentage is agreed on..

In my suggestion the numbers come out to the percentage MK wanted (well in fact gives him slightly more that the 500L entrance fee would if 30 avs turn up.. ) an extra tipjar for the venue IMO would be fine..

The difference with my idea is that nobody is forced to pay, and NOBODY excluded.. Music in SL should not become elitist as this would make it.

Why do people keep comparing to RL?

In RL the big groups that tour to promote an album do not turn a profit on gigs.. Check the facts on the big bands that tour.. their expenses are HUGE (nothing like a musicians in SL). Big band tours are to promote album sales and just to keep the band/singer 'in the market'. Unless things have changed drastically in recent years, it is a well-known fact that very few putting on the spectacular tours make anything but a huge loss.

Things HAVE changed drastically in recent years, even recent decades. There's a couple of reasons for that. The most obvious has been the move from physical albums towards digital sales of singles. In addition, creative accounting by labels has led to most musicians turning little profit on album sales, many not ever making back their advance. The result is that live music has had to become profitable, with increased ticket prices and sales of souvenirs combining to make this possible.

Why do people keep comparing to RL?

I compare it to RL because i am just a listerner, a visitor a fan and i have no problem paying in sl as well. For me there is no difference to the joy i have from music in sl or rl. I go see /hear the ones i like and willing to pay for it.

But even when you just keep it in sl, why are people prepared to hire land and not prepared to pay for music? I think it is because it was so from the beginning, it is become a cultuur. There are sim owners who make a rl living out of sl. There are people who sell clothes and stuff on sl and make money out of it. So why cant a musician? A musician is putting his/her time into sl just like those who making clothes, skins and houses, and most pay for those items. So please explain to me what the differences is?

Thank you, Roos! It's an uphill struggle to convince people as us musicians are fighting against 2 powerful memes: "music wants to be free" and "the internet is free". Sure, in an ideal world they should be. But in the real world hardware costs money to run and musicians have bills to pay just like everyone else.

I'd happily give my music away for free and perform for free *IF* I got my clothes, food, electricity, winter heating, musical instruments, car, house, etc., for free. Until that day happens my paw is forced to find some way of making money out of my creativity.

To elaborate a bit further on Argent's point:

It has become a trend in recent years in the music industry to concede the battle against the download culture. To the point of pretty much giving away the recorded music itself for free. The money is made on ticket sales for live performance 'spectaculars' as well as all the ancilliaries that get sold at said events.

Case & point: remember Metallica's awful song & dance years ago about illegal music downloaders? IIRC, they gave away their last album for free and made their money from their live shows. FWIW, it's the value-added content that can't be downloaded that people are prepared to pay money for: the T-shirt, the gatefold album covers with lyrics and fancy artwork, fan club membership, premium seating at concerts, etc., etc.