A fee for being at a concert in SL?

I am very much into the live music scene in SL, and it is a rare night that I don't go to a concert ... or two ... or three

I recently heard one popular musician was thinking of charging a fee to be at his concerts. The reason was, it is very hard for venues to keep going when they have to pay tier AND pay the performers to play. The amount he was thinking of charging was around 500L for a one hour show, although he does tend to go to 90 minutes regularly, and because the audience would be paying to be there, he wouldnt charge the venue for playing there.

Now, this guy is popular and can get 40+ people to his concerts easily. However, I think most musicians in SL would be lucky to get over 15 people to their concerts, depending on the time (sorry Americans, I only have experience of musicians that play at European times!)

If he begins doing this, do you think it will become the norm in SL?

Do you see any good or bad sides to this? Do you think it will make live music flourish or die in SL?

(editted for smiley non-co-operation lol)

The guy you are talking about is always looking for a new scam to get money out of people... in my opinion.

In real life there are concerts where you have to buy tickets or pay a cover, events that someone else pays for that are free, and street buskers who hope you'll toss something into a hat. Maybe there can be room for all those things in SL too, it doesn't have to all be done one way, right?

I hate the idea and its just another flaw, There is 100% no way to enforce this and i will definatly not be doing it at my venue.

Personally, I am totally against this. I was there when this was mentioned, and was very upset by the suggestion for these reasons:

500L may be nothing to some, but it is a LOT of lindens to many. One great thing about SL is that many that in RL cannot get to see live music (for physical or financial reasons) can in SL - but the chances are that those same people would also be excluded with a large cover charge.

How many could truly afford 500L when they see several shows a week? I know I couldn't.. and I do work in SL.. but to earn 500L takes me several hours and it's not regular income.

It would mean that those new to SL will never discover the music scene (who would pay 500L to see a musician you don't even know if you like?). I remember my noob days when it took me forever to 'earn' 200L to buy an outfit - and that was back in the days when it was easier to 'earn' or get free money.

Even with the musicians that have a large fan base.. how many of those could afford 3 - 4 shows a week? 2K lindens is a lot of money to most in SL. I could see the existing fan bases disappearing over time, and with new SL'ers being excluded, how long would musicians and venues last then?

Tips should be voluntary - always. Perhaps another suggestion would be that the high-earner musicians donate half their tips to the venues

This is very true. When I first landed in SL I had no idea why I was there and what I should be doing. Luckily I stumbled upon live music and that it was kept me coming back. I probably would not be here today if I wasn't able to get into those venues because I had no money.
These days I go to 4 or 5 shows a night sometimes. Not every night but sometimes.

Honestly though... it's a free market and anyone can do what they want. If people are not willing to pay those fees then I don't expect it will last long. Maybe this guy's fan's would be willing to continue going to see him if it's going to cost them $500 a pop. From what I understand he got them to pay for him to fly to amsterdam, among other things.

Hmmm....
Some builders take money, some fashion producers take money ....

Now asking for entrance fee of L$500 means USD 2 - if I go to RL cinema it will cost me much more.

BUT...... compared to SL income L$500 is a VERY large amount compared to very superduper concerts and other comparable happenings.

And I think I wouldn't go to such sessions (nor do I in RL).

Wol

i understand that the venues have tiers but then 80% of them are tips only yet you look closely they have tons of shops they collect rent from they want our fans to come over for trafic to keep the shops happy and they would like the fans to even tip the venue yet they dont wanan pay the musician, you think a musicain should work for free ? what abouth our expensis for example i use 2 guitars in SL to perform and they need new strings each week at 30 us$ a set makes 60 us$ a week or 240 us$ a month thats just the strings but to be honest with ya i dont think people will come to a show for 500L$ then man who has 40 people average will have 4 people if he charge them 500 a pop

I am against it. I always tip the musician and the venue. SO I think that is a better way to make the money ... not a fee that will not allow people to come and go freely. I also think it will discourage new SL members from dropping in just to see what it is like.

I think its a great idea, this also coming from myself being a venue owner that hosts his shows. I have no problem paying 500L to see a sl performer and will always tip at least that and more for talented musicians. Mankind is one of if not the best performers I have seen in sl and someone I would pay to see in rl. It costs a lot of money for a venue to host one of his shows, and at least when you do book him you can expect a big crowd, but still there is little to no return on that investment. That is also if we were to have him play in our store JJ Lanes (shameless plug). Our hope is to make back in sales the price of the booking, great in theory, never happens. When we have him play at Braata Beach there is no financial gain for us whatsoever and purely do this as a way to give back to the community. These surfing sims we built purely run at a loss and are funded from our businesses in sl. With just the tiers to run these its very hard to budget money for quality performers also. Any club or venue owner knows exactly what I am talking about. How do venues in the real world make money? Charging admission and Alcohol, only one which you can do in sl and what is being proposed here. If people want to continue to see this level of talent in sl we all need to pitch in for it and not expect it to all fall back on the venue owners.

I don't think this will necessarily become the norm, but I do think that this idea will work and the vast majority of people will have no problem paying. I mean really is it to much to ask to pay 500L for a talented performer? To me it seems sorta cheap if someone were not to tip that anyways if they weren't strapped for cash. Believe me there was a time in sl were 500L was an awful lot to me so I mean no disrespect. I will also for any show of his we do host with this format and you genuinely cant afford the 500L we will gladly pay that fee for you. I applaud Mankind for thinking outside the box and trying to find ways to continue to bring in quality music to sl.

I remember a few years back after dwell went away a few clubs started putting up paywalls, using the pay-to-access banlines, but it didn't last. This might work better, we'll have to see.

I see a lot of venues that straddle two or three sims. I don't know why someone hasn't thought of setting up a venue with VIP access to an adjacent sim where they can see the performer better, experience it with less lag, and perhaps better quality dance animations provided. So in other words... the landing point for everyone would be on a parcel at the eastern edge of sim A and you can stay there with a big croud of people and still hear the musician... or.. if you want you can pay and enter into a parcel on the western edge of sim B which is closer to the stage and less laggy because there are less people there.

"fewer people there"

I thought Pep had disappeared... I didn't realize he had been turned into a French ferret.

All I can say is "Good luck with that."

The musician has every right to try this business model. I doubt he'd see much success with it unless he's in very high demand. The L$500 price -- that's per attendee?

I see absolutely nothing morally or ethically wrong with it. Even if some performers do this, SL will still have plenty of free concerts.

It's not a scam in any way, assuming there's no deceit involved.

I agree with Victoria. There's room for all sorts of models.

Despite what PinkProps says, there are no significan technical/inforcement issues. Yes, the stream could be hacked using a modified viewer, but I doubt that would be a significant revenue loss, and its detectable. (Note that the scammer stealing the stream would have to pay to get into the venue, and then provide the stream URL to others. They couldn't simply play for free, as long as the URL isn't easily guessed or the same as an earlier show.)

Barbaralla's concerns are reasonable, and she can vote with her feet by choosing different artists and venues. I suspect she'd have plenty of company. But if the artist is popular enough to get a good crowd while charging a fee, it's entirely their right to do so, as Eli says.

But, I think that a performer who charges much at all for shows is unlikely to get many new fans, and very likely to lose a lot of old ones.

There was a lively discussion of this topic on SLU a couple of months back; lots of interesting thoughts on it.

I know of one SL musician who started charging 569L for shows at her own venue a couple of months back, and she seems to be doing okay, because as far as I know she hasn't rolled back that policy.

I was put off by it, though. I'm not really a cheapskate but I do think that musicians should not expect to make as much money at an SL gig as they do for a RL gig. Just as most graphic artists don't make as much from their SL work as they would for RL work, SL musicians ought to adjust their expectations for the realities of the SL economy. Presumably no SL musician is turning down RL gigs to play in SL; they are playing in SL at a time when they would otherwise be home woodshedding in their pajamas anyhow. They get exposure; many of them direct people to RL websites and sell MP3s; money made in Lindens is really gravy on top of that.

Having said all of that, if a musician charges a cover to her venue and is successful at it, more power to her. This particular musician's policy has made it harder for me to bring new folks by to see her, which I used to do regularly, but so far I guess it seems to be worth it to her.

I've looked into bringing live musicians into my venue and have found the costs off-putting. I finance my cafe out of my own pocket. Hundreds of people visit it and enjoy it each week, but while I am lucky to get a few donations here and there, unless I have a regular event at which I am the host and the DJ, I don't make enough to even noticeably offset, much less cover, my tier.

When I've looked into bringing in live musicians, they want an up-front fee of a couple thousand L or more, plus tips. So that's a sunk cost for me, on top of my tier, hosting an event that will not bring any measurable return for me (the musician's fans will come take over my place for an hour but how many of them are likely to come back?).

If I felt I could break even on bringing in a live musician - unlike the musicians themselves, I am not looking to make a profit in SL - I'd be delighted to do it, and do it often. But if it's just going to add more expenses to the already hefty expense of running a place that other people enjoy for free, then I really can't afford to do it. And that is a terrible shame - it says, to me, that the live music model in SL is very, very broken.

I just wanted to thank you all for taking time to voice your opinions. I read all the posts here (and other areas) and thank you all for your insights.

Mankind Tracer

Eli how can you say this is a scam?? Have you read the proposal or just speaking out of he part of your anatomy that is full of it? How can this be a scam when the performer is NOT charging venues and then giving 20% of the cover charge to the venues. This is to help the venues stay in SL not scam them of money.

Gee a scam that gives the venues money, I like that kind of scam. Please scam me!

Read the proposal before commenting and looking like an idiot.

So many people hear the word "charge" and quickly jump on the defense. Try reading through the proposal, these same people will not pay 1.75USD for a live concert but will pay idiotic amounts to make thier cartoon character look good with clothing, shoes accessories, AO's, shapes and skins.......

How is this a scam? A talented performer doing a show and wanting to make some money at it, hardly a scam. I have know Mankind for sometime now and he is a very professional business person to work with, actually the most professional of any performer we have ever booked. Not some scam artist. This is about trying to give back to the venues in a times where people are having a hard time paying tiers and keeping sims. With the plan he is eliminating the venue fee and giving back 20% to the venues.

Just do some math for it, lets say 40 people at the show and 500L a piece is 20,000L for a grand total of $74 for an 60-90 min show. Some will say $74 an hour is great and not bad for some extra money in sl. This is true, but look at the whole picture. I have been doing this for a few years in sl, and Mankind is one of the only ones who doesn't just show up 5 minutes before the show. Days before he is planning and setting up making flyers and promoting. All of a sudden that $74 an hour isn't as much as it seems.

This model definitely wont work for all musicians. There is a big range in the level of talent in sl. With Mankind you are talking about the top performer in sl voted by the residents. I want to see more people with his level of talent come into sl.

"How many could truly afford 500L when they see several shows a week? I know I couldn't.. and I do work in SL.. but to earn 500L takes me several hours and it's not regular income."


Barbarella, not to step on any toes here, but who are you kidding really? It's no secret the amount of money you put into SL, and while you may have to work several hours to earn that kind of money within SL, you specifically have more than enough money to probably pay for hundreds of people to attend a live music show daily. I've witnessed you drop hundreds of thousands of $L at auctions and you proclaimed in a group chat that you bought out an ENTIRE STORE when they had a sale, and stated that you bought EVERY single one of Stiletto Moody's new shoe line the day they were released. I often see you at this particular artist's show, and chances are that you are already tipping him at least $500L anyway. And if you're not, well then shame on you.

And what does that tell you then Eli? It tells you that he is well loved enough for people to DEMAND his presence in RL. It tells you that he has been verified by many people in SL and RL as an honest and good person. You think he came up with the idea to go to Amsterdam? You honestly think he sent out a notice and said "Hey everyone, I think it would be awesome for me to fly across the world and perform in RL and I want you all to pay for it please." I mean come on. His fans WANT him to perform for him and they made it happen.

Just because this particular artist is talking about charging a fee for his shows, and possibly many others will follow, does not mean that free live music will be obsolete. There are always new artists coming into SL who need to develop a fan base and will take the same steps all live musicians take. Starting out doing tips only shows and then start charging a low fee and gradually raising it with their own rising popularity. So fine, you don't want to pay for a show (which tells me you are also one of the ones guilty of not tipping an artist or the venue) then don't. You will still be able to go see new artists any time you'd like and, sadly, not tip them either.

Yeah it's a scam for bands to charge admission at real concerts too I guess.
If people can't put 2 cents towards the band putting their effort in, why should they care about cheapskate tightarses not hearing them.

If people would tip decently then maybe it wouldn't be an issue, but when after 2 hours the band and sim owner have just L$5k to share between them from 80 attendees who appeared to love every minute, it's a pretty piss poor effort by fans in my book.

It's an insult to their effort and talents to refuse to pay or tip.

Some people in SL behave like they really think L$10=US$100.

Why would any major real life band even consider performing in SL when they would be labelled as scammers for daring to charge entry to the event.

I have read the proposal... otherwise I would not have know what this thread is about and who the musician in question was. And thank you for slinging around words like "idiot".

Perhaps the proposal in itself would not feel like a scam to me if I didn't have to read a notecard or a blog post ever other month about how this musician and/or his friends are collecting money from SL residents for his needs.

Do you really think he's not going to make more money out of the deal just because he's giving 20% back to the venue? Every email I get from Nigeria promises to give me a certain percentage of that big check they want me to cash for them

My gut feeling is that he's probably running out of venues that want to pay him what he wants.

That could be interpreted as "He's running a scam".

Or it could be interpreted as "SL can't pay talent what it's worth".