Support for the "Impeach Bush" Guy

Dito. While I believe that ppl should be allowed to do what they want in SL. I'm not willing to say I support this guy. I agree that he like everyone else has a right to speak. I don't always agree with their message. Or how others go about supporting every jerk. they can latch their agenda onto.

Mar

Stating repeatedly that 75% of SL players feel this way or that way is not speaking informally and in obvious looseness. It is making a sweeping statement to try to bolster the idea that this is some tsunami of protest that is going to swallow SL whole, when really it is nothing more than a tempest in a teacup.

The poll you are referring to was incredibly biased, it doesn't surprise me it was answered the way it was. That is the great thing about polls - they can be written to solicit exactly the answer you want.

My position is the same as Jake's, Ulrika's, and others who feel that ultimately this comes down to Lazarus being free to do what he wants on his own land, and to mark the land for whatever price he wants. This is a freedom we all enjoy in SL, and it should not curtailed because people dislike these signs. I dislike the SLUSTLER signs, and I'm not all that fond of ANSHECHUNG.COM ads spammed to high hell, but you know what, it is their right to do so, as they own the land the signs are on.

Not a single person is being harmed by these signs - those who claim harm have self inflicted it, as the signs can't do anything to you. If people are whipped up into a frenzy, it is from the very mob-mentality group think that you are always harping on about. Of course, when you support the issue, then it is not "group think". I know how that works. Regardless, these signs are harming no one's second life. To claim otherwise is preposterous, as is making any statements about a poll being representative at all of sentiment on this issue overall.

There is a difference between supporting the person, and supporting their right to do something. I don't agree with what Lazarus is doing - I would not purposely do something that obviously upsets people, though I suppose there is a cetain visceral thrill in watching people work themselves up into a frenzy over something so trivial. I take comfort in the lengths that Linden Lab has gone to ensure that a group of people, no matter how vocal, does not dictate their policy. That is what people are always going on and on about, until it suits them to have LL do what they want. I think it is a brave stance for them to take, which is to stand up for the very freedoms that make SL so unique.

Seconded!

~Ulrika~

I'm bumping this so there can be eight different Bush-sign threads at the top of the forum at the same time. What happened to the General forum in my absence?

~Ulrika~

You can have it be a tempest in a teapot if you wish, Cristiano, which you apparently do, since this 75% response in this poll means absolutely nothing to you.

I don't need to try to bolster any idea with some sweeping statement when the poll is sitting right there staring you in the face! And I'm tired of explaining this! If the poll said 25% I would be thinking maybe I was thinking things were worse than they are, but it doesn't. Have it your way! Tempest in a teacup! I really do not CARE. I'm observing things as I see them and your banging away on it isn't going to change how I've seen them and/or the evidence in front of our noses. Now if you or anybody else wants to look at this whole situation, and look at those poll results, look at all the players upset about it, and decide it all means nothing, then FINE, but I do not agree with you, and continuing to try to make it all some character flaw of mine just isn't going to change that.

I know what your position is, and Jake's, and Ulrika's, and it is the minority position, from everything we can know.

I can argue with you till the cows come home, but we - you and me, Jake and me - disagree on one fundamental underlying assumption here, which is that he has broken no laws and that this is a free speech issue.

If I believed that, I would definitely be agreeing with all your sentences about "free to do whatever he wants on his own land," but I don't, because I CAN'T, because this is not, imo, a free speech issue, or an issue about one's freedom on one's own land. It is a griefing under the cloak of free speech. And it is against the TOS.

When you are telling me about free speech, you're preaching to the choir. The sticking point is that I don't believe this is ABOUT free speech. So we are just going to go around in circles about it. Anshe Chung's signs, or a club that exists in several spot's signs, or someone else's business or business signs in several places - those are reasonable doing-business things, and none of those people is doing it to grief others, which I maintain this guy is doing. So let's not argue that either.

Talk to the people he has personally harassed and then tell me he is harming no one's second life. Not to mention the ultimate long-term harm he is doing to SL.

And never mind all that anyway. Having been treated to Invect Hasp's evening of necroposting (at first I thought maybe the game was down to everybody, especially since I'd had considerable trouble getting in), I've come to a whole new point of view on this.

And that is: The Lindens will do nothing about these signs because if they did, they would be setting a bad precedent for Coke, when it comes in with its big-bucks deal, to place signs all OVER the flippin landscape about Coke. Who could do this besides Lazarus, and who WOULD do it besides him? Coke could, that's who, and coke would, and after Lazarus, we're gonna actually be HAPPY to see the coke signs, particularly when they aren't moved right over to our front WINDOWS if we complain. At least they won't be griefing and extorting with it.

See? It's probably all just that simple. And when we do get the Coke signs, nobody will be able to say, "But you removed the Bush guy's signs!"

Now you can keep maintaining till the cows come home that that poll meant nothing, and none of this means nothing, and that I'm some sort of frenzied group-think preposterous mob-whipping harpie, but I simply pointed out that 75% of us (speaking loosely) don't like the signs.

They don't. And for good reason. But - I've decided tonight - Coke has more money to spend on SL than all of us put together, and Lazarus Divine is just helping to pave the way.

coco

Maybe a better way to say it:

75% of the people who:

Read the forums,
Don't skip threads on 'bush signs' because they're utterly sick of them,
Read your thread,
Could be bothered to vote on a poll,
And thougth whatever the button that had that opinion on it was right...

Said this....


I would NEVER say that a forum poll reflected anything that a majority of SL wanted.

I mean, for f*cks sake we're talking about a group of people that voted me 'poster of the year' or some such rot....

Surely that alone blows the credibility outta the water....

Ironically I've seen and heard more about these f*cking signs here in the forums than anywhere else.. so in order to take solice from them I have no choice but to retreat from the forums and go to the only place where I can be safe from them...

... back in world..

SUPPORT PROP 869

All polls in the forums are self-selected, and therefore non-probability polls, and statistically meaningless.

I wouldn't base my business decisions on them, and I'm a much, much smaller company than Linden Labs.

(And I think it is about Free Speech. He's not advocating anything illegal, or inciting anyone to harm anyone else, or singling out any group, or saying anything defamatory or libelous about anyone. He's simply calling for support to exercise a legal process, that has precedent in very recent history. What's wrong with that?

(And yes, I have one of these in the view from my front yard, too. So what? There are signs up all over the place, and at least his don't rotate!)

I come here to read Siggy's post!! And if Siggy didn't state it clearly enough for the logic-tard, then Robin sure nailed it down in the next post.

Meaning of Forum Polls for DUMMIES - NOTHING!!!!!

Personally I would like to add my 2 cents worth to all of this by saying THANK YOU for helping me take a stand against this. God Bless America and My Right To Free Speech

Okay. I have produced the Ordinal Labs Kinetic Metaphor Propagator v0.1. It's in patriotic red, white and blue, and, when a Political Statement hits a free-speech recipient:

* it shouts "IMPEACH BUSH! U.S. OUT OF IRAQ! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!";
* it explodes in a shower of IMPEACH BUSH signs;
* it plays "Stars And Stripes Forever";
* it sends whoever it is flying.

Other colours and statements available on request.

http://engine-proceeding.blogspot.com/2006/01/freedom-of-speech-automated.html

This is an inaccurate statement, due (ironically perhaps?) to poor sampling assumptions.

Folks with a firm grasp on the subject may simply not advertise the fact - thus, you may easily overlook them.



Re: the signs:

If freedom of expression is paramount, how come other content deemed inappropriate has been removed?

We have cases of the 'slippery slope' with obscenity and intolerance too. There are plenty of penises in SL, but one was banned from Burning Man - that was a judgement call.

With regard to intolerance, at just what point does a build become a 'concentration camp'?

Unlike most things in life, however, this one is win-win for me. Something will be done about the signs, or if not, I'll be renting out my own island sims soon enough.

While I support the removal and impeachment and jailing of the first criminal to become President of the United States in 2004, George "Boy George" W Bush (AKA George the Second or bible thumping liar George the Second) I do not support these signs, especially when the land owner sets the 16 meters of land to sell for 250000 lindens... Thats extortion.

Kewl! How much is it and where can I get one?

Now while what I am about to say is not scientific, but it does show something inportant.

I like taking walks across Second Life, and lately with-out exception, 100 % of the people I meet are up in arms over the signs. Its not a complete representation, but if 100% of actual people I meet in my short walks are up in arms and do not like them... then the number has got to be high for the number of Second Life residents who hate these signs.

I think you'll find that quite a lot of people hate the signs - thats not the issue.

The issue is what *SHOULD* be done about them. There are several different opinions on what LL's stance should be. I think you'll find that a lot of the people who don't want LL to 'lay the pimp hand down' and remove them (myself included) don't like them.

For instance - the camp I'm in is the one that doesn't like the signs - but doesn't like the idea of mob rule dictating what *I* can build on my land.

Which is why I think that the poll itself is already biased toward people who want the signs to stay for free speech reasons. I could be completely wrong, though.

However, I think it would be interesting if someone did sort of a random "man-on-the-street" brief polling of people in SL. Like a hundred people.

--------

Do you think the Lindens should remove the Bush signs?

Yes
No
Not sure
What signs?

--------

coco

It's entirely free! (But when you pick it up, it costs $5,000 to put it down again*.)


* not really

LET'S USE SOME LOGIC, PEOPLE!

If the polls are meaningless and should be ignored by the Lindens, then the same thing goes for inworld meetings.

Those meetings with Lindens to discuss what we think of things - the city halls, the smaller meetings, the discussion groups, etc. - they attract a self-selecting population, too, so why pay any attention to them?

In fact, I've noticed that those meetings are heavily populated by people who read and comment in the forums.

So - why should the Lindens bother even having the meetings and workshops? Much less pay the slightest attention to the results obtained therein?

coco

How many people hate the signs doesn't make one iota of difference.

Not.

A.

Single.

Bit.


We are not citizens of a representative democracy. We are in a privately-owned virtual world, run by a business.

Lazarus owns his land. Just like Coke would own their land, Cocoa, if they came into SL and put up billboards.


Would I like it? Hell no. But I like keeping the option open that I can build whatever I want on my land. What he is doing is no more "spam" than this:



His land, his build. Visible from the neighbors house? Yep. Doesn't make it spam.

Logic being, Cocoa, that when they hold inworld meetings, they're actively looking for our input on a topic that we can help make decisions on. They seem to have made a pretty final determination in this case what their course of action is going to be. Which makes protests and petitions and polls a fun way to pass an afternoon, but highly doubtful that its going to get you anywhere.

Well, it does make a bit of difference, if people do something about it; lobbying commercial organisations, particularly as a user, can certainly be effective.

However, the simple fact of 99% of people wanting to nuke Bush Guy wouldn't make any difference at all if they all kept quiet about it and didn't make any decisions based on it.

Yes, I've copped to the Coke angle, on LL's part.

But I've also pointed out that Coke would NOT list their lands for exhorbitant prices, and then pocket the money when people bought them. Coke would not be an extortionist.

Coke would NOT place their signs right up to people's windows, or multiply their signs on purpose, just because someone objected. Coke would not be a griefer.

Coke would NOT list their billboard sites for sale just to spam up the for sale lists. Coke would not "cheat" to get extra advertising.

coco

P.S. And if Coke did any of those things, I strongly doubt people would be defending Coke's right to free speech!

Good answer, Cory.

However, this horse hasn't done left the barn like a lot of people think it has.

coco