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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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08-22-2006 15:46
From: Ninja Kawabata I don't think I would say California is tanking but I would say that the gap between rich and poor is getting wider with less middleclass in between. High Taxes, High Fuel rates, High energy costs are hurting everyone but the middleclass more then anyone.
I would argue that those are hurting the lower-class more than anyone, as they have less money to spend.
From: Ninja Kawabata What happens when the middleclass can't afford to live in an area? They leave it. Construction is going on like crazy every place, if there is a plot of land they will toss a house on it but actually from what I have been reading the real estate market is heading for trouble many people who were having houses built are now trying to break out of there contracts and many houses that were built are now being sold with big discounts due to no one can afford them. It is nice to build but if you can't rent or sell what you have what good is it. Companies are having problems filling jobs because it is hard to find trained people who can't afford to live in an area the jobs are or can't afford to travel to the jobs because of high fuel costs.
The new construction here (in SF) is not stopping and projects are sold-out in record time. I know some other parts of the country (like Las Vegas) are going through tough times because too many new homes were built and the unsold inventory was (or still is) at record levels. Those areas are going to need to absorb the excess inventory before things will look up again.
From: Ninja Kawabata Of course this has nothing to do with linden labs but what I was trying to say was this,
LL removed dwell so a lot of places that counted on dwell are closing down because they can’t afford to stay open.
LL did something our government should do: remove corporate welfare. 
From: Ninja Kawabata LL removed user verification and now we have troublemakers who only want to cause problems by attacking locations, if they get banned, they make a new account and come back over and over and it don’t stop.
I agree this is a problem, but it has increased the user base and my guess is that some of those who were lured by open registration have upgraded to a paid account. It's a win for LL, although it comes with major headaches for all of us, including LL.
From: Ninja Kawabata You ask for linden help and they say file a report and will refuse to come see what is going on. LL might suspend people for causing trouble but what good is that when you can keep making unverified accounts. Due to this people who own land with things that people like to visit will start closing down and leaving SL, this has started. I see more land for sale now then I have seen in ages there has to be a reason for it. LL says they don’t want to play police officers but its there system if they wont then who will? It has gone way out of hand. By removing all accountability they hurt every good person in SL.
Agreed. Hopefully, LL is taking a good, hard look at the problem they created with open registration and hopefully will be addressing it (in one form or another) soon.
From: Ninja Kawabata Why are so many people leaving SL? We have lost some top people in the last few weeks why is this happening is a question we must ask. If SL is supposed to be resident run then why don’t they listen to what residents want? It is one big farce.
People leave for one reason or another - I have yet to see any of the top people leave specifically because of these issues caused by open registration. I don't doubt that some people (top or not) have left due to the problems, but I have noticed a steady increase in residents - not a decrease.
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Joshua Nightshade
Registered dragon
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,337
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08-22-2006 16:51
From: Finning Widget So you /do/ misunderstand the nature of a free society.
"Free" /does/ mean "lawless" - in that no-one has to /enforce/ those laws, no-one really recognises the laws are /there/, and no-one tries/succeeds in /breaking/ those laws. A free society is one in which people are free to do as they please as long as it does not harm another. Laws do not exist for the benefit of society - laws exist to protect individuals from society, and the society from itself. Societies will form in and of themselves. A free, global society provides a framework for these particular societies and tolerates and nurtures them equally.
The Lindens are far from "lacking enforcement":
They've built a world that has numerous automated rules and laws - one cannot (normally) view someone else's no-copy-no-mod script, for example. One cannot trespass onto private simland that one has been banned from. Everything you do, see, script, or manipulate in Second Life is based on Linden Labs' enforcement of an entire paradigm on your CPU, TCP/IP stack, and graphics card. If you don't think it's "enforcement", then by all means, here are your POP and POKE tools, I hope you read Hexadecimal Unicode fluently.
They create a framework - YOU create your society, YOU do the enforcement of what you think your society's ideals are and I get freedom from your enforcement if I choose such. THAT is what a 'free society' is, globally. Second Life has never been - to my knowledge - an anarchy; There have been many social anarchies /in/ it, but the only way /it/ could be anarchy is if they just let anyone screw with the asset server or database code.
If you don't want a flopping dorkus in your BOD meeting, feel free to make that a rule in YOUR society and enforce YOUR rules - maybe someone out there wants it. Not my place to tell them "no", not yours, and not LL's.
You're paying forty dollars a month for, among other things, controlling a quantity of simland, the ability to buy/sell more than $150.00 USD on the Lindex, and a variety of status-bits. You're /not/ paying forty dollars a month to guilt a free society into enforcing your arbitrary psychological needs / morality, except where they've already contractually agreed to try to do it (and note, they only agreed to TRY. (PG Sims)). You're paying forty dollars a month for a framework, not for your own culture rapidiotyped and crystallised and sold back to you.
You believe that only things that adhere to your moral code are 'proper' and only they will 'sell' - Gee, in your worldview, TCP/IP, HTML, X86 instruction codes, streaming video, XML - none of these are good, useful, worthy, will 'sell' - because they are all amoral (according to your way of thinking). You very much misunderstand the basic tenants of anarchy. http://wikipiedia.com is where I suggest you visit.
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Ninja Kawabata
Registered User
Join date: 6 Nov 2005
Posts: 135
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08-23-2006 12:12
From: Juro Kothari
I would argue that those are hurting the lower-class more than anyone, as they have less money to spend.
Somewhat true but the poor can get public assistance for items that the middle class can't get because they earn to much so to say. But with prices going up like crazy what middle class can afford has changed. For an example where I live the average price of a home in a not so good neighborhood is running in the 500,000 price range. In a decent area they are in the 750,000 to 1,000,000 range in an excellent area they are way over 1 million. If you earn 35-70,000 a year you can't afford to buy something this high so you can look at renting but here in a not so decent area rents run in the 1100 to 1700 a month for a 2 bedroom apt and in a good area it can run you 1800 to 3700 a month for a 2 bedroom so again most people can't afford that. You can look at assisted housing but you make too much to qualify. So what do you do? You are forced to leave. The rich can afford it and the poor get help the middle class gets hurt From: someone
The new construction here (in SF) is not stopping and projects are sold-out in record time. I know some other parts of the country (like Las Vegas) are going through tough times because too many new homes were built and the unsold inventory was (or still is) at record levels. Those areas are going to need to absorb the excess inventory before things will look up again.
SF is a good area but who is moving there? Middle Class or Upper Class? What is going on outside of SF? Here where I am they are building all over the city and prices have gone nuts so many people such as artists are being pushed out as they can no longer afford to live in the city. In return some good things have happened. They have been buying old abandoned warehouses and turning them into lofts in turn these decrepit areas are now becoming nicer and developers are investing to fix these areas up but the down side is that with all the new development going on the people who lived in these areas are getting pushed out because they can no longer afford to live there and are now having to seek public assistance to find and help pay for a place to live. I don’t see anyone building new homes for the middle and lower class income members of our society. From: someone LL did something our government should do: remove corporate welfare. Maybe but then again they took away the only income from many places which creates 2 things. 1) Shut down or 2) charge people to visit. There is good and bad with doing this. Some places can make more L doing this but then again they might not make anything. Some people don’t have a problem paying others do, and if they can’t go anyplace without paying they will get board and leave which will bring a loss in membership. I feel that by supplying dwell it gave people a reason to make fun places that would want to make people come and hang out, with the loss of dwell I often hear why should I build something what’s in it for me other then getting attacked these days. If people make nice things that bring people into second life and keep them here is it so wrong to have some type of reward for doing so? With out nice things here in second life why would I want to stay here? I think that the people who make second life what it is deserve something. These people pay so they can make something for others to enjoy and they do deserve something for there talent. You “Juro” make great houses and you deserve to be paid for them what if tomorrow LL said there is no more L everything is free would you still make houses? Would people still make cloths and furniture and other fine products? From: someone
I agree this is a problem, but it has increased the user base and my guess is that some of those who were lured by open registration have upgraded to a paid account. It's a win for LL, although it comes with major headaches for all of us, including LL. Has it really or is it that people are now making more accounts so they can do things and not get in trouble for doing it? I am sure there are some new people but then again if a verified account new people would still come, I don’t think removing the validation process brought more valid members into the world then it would have if there was validation in place. Look at the facts, with validation we had plenty of members you and me included but with validation there was accountability to ones behavior. Now with no validation we have new members but look at the increase in trouble causing people is this a coincidence? I think not. From: someone
People leave for one reason or another - I have yet to see any of the top people leave specifically because of these issues caused by open registration. I don't doubt that some people (top or not) have left due to the problems, but I have noticed a steady increase in residents - not a decrease.
People do leave yes that is true but when people leave because they are fed up with the problems LL has causes is a bad thing, they say this is a resident created world but do they listen to the people who are doing the creating? I will say sometimes but not often enough. You can say there is a steady increase of members but how much of that is one person making 5 accounts?
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